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Just curious, what pump action shotgun is generally believed to be the strongest from a pressure standpoint? Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | ||
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Maybe someone can find it....there's a video of a guy loading a live 20 Ga shell down the barrel of a 12 Ga Remington 870 and then firing a 12 Ga shell behind it.... One would expect devastation.....but no...it did blow the action open but the gun was undamaged and actually went on shooting 12 Ga shells after it.....apparantly neither the action nor the barrel was damaged.....it simply blew the 20 Ga shell out the barrel! If I hadn't seen it.....I wouldn't have believed it! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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What pressure ratings are 12 ga actions usually tested to? Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Winchester supposedly did that very test, with their Model 59, when first introduced. The Model 59 was an auto-loader with a fiberglass wrapped steel barrel, known as a "Win-lite". NRA Patron Life Member Benefactor Level | |||
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My foggy memory remembers a 20,000 PSI figure and most high pressured hunting 12 Ga loads run under 12,000 /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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I saw that same thing done with a Win Model 12. I'd have to say a Model 12 or a Rem Model 31 would be the strongest. Don | |||
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Ahhhh... thinking about delving into a little shotgun reloading are ya Mike? The Remington 870 is the 70's Yamaha of the pump shotguns. You can beat the living crap out of them and they keep on a working. Of course they probably haven't met you.  _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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Nah...I was really wondering what kinda a pressure, hence what velocity you could really push a 12 ga solid copper slug to out of say a 3 1/2 12 ga... Then I can go cuase a ruckus with Dangerous Game crowd... Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Mike, while the 870 is probably one of the most durable shotguns out there, I don't believe from a design standpoint that it is the most indestructible of the pump models. From a design standpoint, I would think that a shotgun with a rotating, multi-lugged bolt head, that locks directly to the barrel like the Benelli Super Nova would be stronger. My opinion. _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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I seem to remember the Win 1300 Pump did/does have that type of Lock-Up too, but that could be Full-of-Beans. No idea if they made a 3 1/2" version. | |||
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It's doubtful IMO that you would be able to obtain more than 1820 FPS even out of a 3.5" shell !. ME is only impressive within 0 -30 yards ,after that it might just piss that ole Grizzly off !?. Foster type rifled slugs generally weigh 1 ounce in 12 gauge, gauge. The 12 gauge slug has an advertised muzzle velocity (MV) of 1560 fps from a 2 3/4" high-brass shell, 1680 fps from a 2 3/4" Magnum shell, or 1760 fps from a 3" Magnum shell. These are Remington figures from their 2004 catalog. The catalog energy figures for the common high-brass ("maximum") 12 gauge slug load are an impressive 2361 ft. lbs. at the muzzle, but only 926 ft. lbs. at 100 yards. This is due to the very poor BC of the slug. Sighted to hit dead on at 50 yards, that slug is 4.8" low at 100 yards. The more powerful 12 gauge slugs are only marginally better, and kick noticeably harder. No matter what, rifled slugs remain a short range proposition.  | |||
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There is more information than you ever wanted to know if you do a search for "The 12 gauge rifle from hell". The search will take you to a forum with over 500 posts. Seems that the Stevens 210 (might be Savage) bolt action shotgun with rifled barrel is the gun of choice but pump guns were tried also. Quite an interesting read and I have been looking for a Stevens 210 for the last couple of years. Don't ask me what happened, when I left Viet Nam, we were winning. | |||
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http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=178655 Here is a link Don't ask me what happened, when I left Viet Nam, we were winning. | |||
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Hey Ron, That does ring a bell. Didn't Marlin make a Bolt Action Goose Gun for quite awhile as well? I seem to remember a very l-o-n-g barrel on it. | |||
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Never seen one, but Browning mfg. the A Bolt in 12gauge shotgun and may be a contender for such a title?? G&H had one listed, New in Box, but proud of it w/ price of near 1,000.00 | |||
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4 bore tula pump .. but that's not realy your question. Go post this question in the 12 ga from hell thread .. they are doing exceptional work with this idea Ed or Rob might have an idea.. Now, if you could get a OU rifled barrel 12 ga! opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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http://forums.accuratereloadin...871068721#2871068721
opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Doubtful...... But maybe its older sister the Winchester Model 97 could be the "Strongest Pump Action Shotgun" P.O. Ackley praised the ol' 97's strength! He re-barreled a '97 one time for the .30-06. After several factory rounds to no harm, he feed his conversion 'blue pills' (or factory high-pressure test loads) Still no problem. So Ackley loaded his own "HOT" loads up and up and finally succeeded to blow the barrel out of the receiver! I believe it was a takedown model with interrupted threads on the barrel. The receiver and lock-up were not harmed! BigRx | |||
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Saami calculates a Proof load to be 1.7X MAP Max avg pressure So 12,500 psi X 1.7 = 21250 psi Proof load www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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The Browning A-Bolt would indeed be very strong no doubt, but would be disqualified because Mike (original poster) asked "Strongest Pump Action Shotgun". The thin barrels on shotguns is probably going to be the weak link. Front lockers, especially rotary bolts, sound in theory to be strongest. But one needs to know most, if not all, of these designs lock into some sort of barrel tenon. So? You might ask? Well, with barrel and bolt locked together something then has to stop the rearward thrust of the locked together unit. Usually it is a shoulder inside the receiver. Let me give you a real life example.... When 870's were young I saw one blown up. Not really blown apart, but ruined. The shooter was using an old time duck reload with paper shells, 25grs of Unique powder, and 1 1/4oz of shot. Card and fiber wads were used. (This was the 50's) One shell had the shot to high to crimp. The 870 owner thought he had put one too many 3/8" wads in so he got a cork screw and removed one, checking nothing else..... Well, he had 50 grains of Unique on board! The locked bolt and barrel came back with enough force to bulge out both sides of the receiver to the point the gun would not function. It did not blow open however or blow the barrel. (although barrel was ruined) This said, my vote is still the '97. P.O. Ackley probably had a 100,000 psi .30-06 overload in it when he blew the barrel threads off. Yes, the .30-06 case is smaller... Even so, this is the equivalent of touching off a 12ga shell loaded to 35,000 psi!!! BigRx | |||
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Forgot about that one. We had a JC higgins or a Sears and Roebuck 12 ga bolt action. It was a well used pile. But I would say just from a design stand point that any bolt action shot gun would be the strongest action. But we were talking about pump action though. I'd still like to get a Ithaca but our gun shops out here cater to the flavor of the month gun. Hard to find a dealer that will just order what you want. Now I remember my father telling me when he was In the Marines, that the Ithaca M37 was the shotgun to have. In his area there were a few shotguns floating around, The Win M12, Ithaca M37, I believe the Rem 870 but not as many of those floating around. Now the strongest action when it come to reputation based solely on it's years of being produced as everyone knows that the design I'm talking about had a bad reputation in some circles And that is the Browning Auto Five. In continuos production for exactly 100 years. even though the production was never under the same roof or same parent company. And that is the second shotgun on my wish list. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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If I was a betting man (which I'm not.....I always lose) I'd be wagering my money on the Winchester M-1300 with the rotary lockup as the strongest pump shotgun. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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In both pump and auto------ Winchester and Benelli, etc, guns with rotary locking bolts take highest pressures as long as barrels are heavy and high alloy to match pressures. Also nearly as strong are the pivot locking bolt types that the bolt pivots from the front of the bolt up into the locking seat. Like the Khan 3.5" auto I have that I fired hopped up 3.5" slug loads. Slug speeds. We can get 600 gr Dixie slugs to 1800 plus in any modern barrel pump or auto with our slow powder loads, IE non-shotgun powder, where we lab tested peak pressures at around 14,500 psi. We also use jkt 12ga slugs made by RG Henson.And saboted slugs of 300 to 500 gr at higher speeds.Ed MZEE WA SIKU | |||
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I believe you are correct. As I recall it was a 12 ga bolt action with a smooth 36" barrel. I also recall that they were a little on the flimsy side when compaired to the Stevens 210 with a rifled slug barrel. Don't ask me what happened, when I left Viet Nam, we were winning. | |||
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I know the question is about action strength, but reliability is important, also. Somewhere in my stack of stuff I have a copy of a DOD report on choosing a pump shot gun for the Services. The request was for a pump action, 8 rounds, 12 ga., and must fire 100,000 rounds without a failure due to the gun. The companies weren't permitted to send them a test gun, only what model they would supply. The DOD bought that model off the shelf for the test. Savage, Remiington 870, Winchester 1300 and a Mossberg 500. The Savage and the Winchester went out around 49,000. The Remington went out at 89,000 and they quite shooting the Mossberg at 140,000. That kinda speaks for itself............Tom SCI lifer NRA Patron DRSS DSC | |||
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Tom, Please tell me the DoD used a sample size greater than 1. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Mike I agree with you on the sample size. I will have to dig it out and recheck it, but I think you are right, it was a sample of one. Not a valid sample.....Tom SCI lifer NRA Patron DRSS DSC | |||
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I think I remember reading somehwere where either J. Hatcher or P.O. Ackley rebarreled an 1887 Winchester to 30/06 for one of his experiments??? DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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