I've been told by a local smith that the headspace is worn on my old Model 30 Express 30-06. Groups have mysteriously gone to hell.. Used to group 1-1/2 allday with a peepsight.. Now I'm lucky if I can keep it in 3-5" groups. How can I tell if the headspace is worn and would that have anything to do with accuracy..

Thanks

I agree with the first reply and would add it maybe be that your throat is shot out, in other words eroded. You might take means and see how far out your throat is. One way is to load a long flat base bullet backwards (nose seated in the case) seated long so when you chamber it the throat will seat it and tell you how much freebore you now have.

Peep sight huh? Did something suddenly happen to your eyes? When groups suddenly go to hell using peep sights first check your eyes, then look to the muzzle or bore for a bulge, or see if your action screws are loose.

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It is quite unlikely for headspace to suddenly enlarge, and even if it did, it wouldn't make the groups double in size.

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I've been told by a local smith that the headspace is worn on my old Model 30 Express 30-06

Find a new smith.

Might want to check the muzzle crown. Did you bump it on something? Seems to me that if the headspace lengthend that would mean the bolt lugs would be set back and make it hard to lift the bolt.

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Originally posted by ramrod340:

quote:

I've been told by a local smith that the headspace is worn on my old Model 30 Express 30-06

Find a new smith.

The Mod 30 is based on the M17 action. It has
angled locking lugs making it easy to force a
no-go gague into battery. Use a light touch when
measuring. Headspace isn't responsible for your problem in the first place.
Good luck!

quote:

the M17 action. It has
angled locking lugs

you mean a cone breach?? which would have no effect on being able to force a gauge into battery

It is the locking lugs that haw an angle that
cams the case, of course the coned breech has
nothing to do with it. 1917 (Enfields) were
sold by the NRA for $7.50 about 60 years ago.
It was a panic when gunsmiths all over the country claimed they had headspace. There has
been more BS written headspace than almost any
other gun subject.
Good luck!

The angled lugs of the 1917 design were responsible for a FUBAR by one of the most respected (and vilified) gun writers of all time.

Yes, the fabled Elmer Keith, when working at the Ogden Arsenal during WW2, was tasked with checking the headspace of 1917 rifles. He did, very enthuiastically, with the result that all the rifles seemed to have been barreled incorrectly!?!

Imagine his disgust when his supervisor told him that HE had caused the excessive headspace with his trusty little Field gauge!

Elmer somehow fails to mention this escapade in his many writings, not even in his 2 autobiographies....
Regards, Joe

did the barrel back out, the bolt changed out, or someone run a reamer into the chamber?

unless there's a bulge in the barrel, its rather unlikely that its "changeD" headspace .. not saying it wasn't long, short, or perfect, but for it to CHANGE would be rather hard.

here, do this ... take a fire EMPTY case, put it in the boltface, and chamber the bolt ... does it close?

fine, then put a strip of masking tape or better, metal tape (like aluminum ducting tape) on the bottom of the case .. across the headstamp

does the bolt close with resistence?

he might have meant the throat has eroded.. unlikely in a 30-06..

take the gun out of the stock and take some foaming bore cleaner and fill the barrel from the muzzle.. then from the breach .. oozing out is great ...

now, put muzzle down in an empty coffee can... let it sit for 2 hours ... repeat 2-3 times

run a nylon brush and some cleaning pads ...

oil it when its dry, and go shoot again...

oh, yeah, check the screws mounting the peepsight

Old rifles that have been shot a great eal can have the bore ahead of the chamber eaten out by hot gasses. This usually occurs after something approaching 5,000 rounds. That condition will cause accuracy to go bad quickly, but it is usually noticed at longer ranges than 100 yards, usually 300 and beyond.

Bob,
Throat errosion doesnt' really have anything to do with headspace, right?

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Originally posted by jeffeosso:

he might have meant the throat has eroded.. unlikely in a 30-06..

Well, considering my 30-06 hunting rifle is on it's 2nd barrel since it was built 1977, and that the first one was set back a full turn once..........
About 5000 rounds on the first throat, 2500 on the set back throat (1 turn wasn't enough to completely clean up the throat damage).
BTW, in all that time/rounds, the headspace remained consistent at 0.000 (just closed on a GO gauge)

Not knowing the entire history of the rifle, IMHO it's entirely possible for a rifle that's 50-90 years old to have a roasted throat

While we all have opinions the thing that sticks out to me is noone feels that the rifle SUDDENLY had a headsapce change. Of course maybe the accuracy changed from 1.5 to 5" over 5000 rounds. I read his post as it happened over a short timeframe. But hey I've been wrong before.

Guy's, Great stuff here. Hated to even say anything as I don't wanta kill the thread..

Anyway according to letters stamped on barrel it was manufactured in 1921. Has a ton of sentimental value and i'd spend more than it's worth to beable to keep it up and running..

Do a chamber cast and include the throat to see what's going on. It can possibly be set back a thread or two by another `smith.

To put it a bit indelicately...whoever told you "the Headspace is worn out" is full of "stuff"...head space DOESN'T "wear out". SOMEONE is pumping you full of...cow patoot.

Get a new smith or have someone else check your rifle.

Throats erode, lugs can be set back and do wear a bit, barrels can loosen and wear out usually at the muzzle and the chamber from playing the cleaning rod like a fiddle bow...SIGHTS AND EYES can go bad and you can buy or build a bad batch of ammo.

I would look at the WHOLE rifle for loose "stuff", then check the sights AND my eyes, then have someone shoot it with the same ammo.

Weather can have a big effect on stocks and bend/twist the barrel so check to see if you have clearance all around the barrel, and check to see if the receiver is loose or the stock screws backed out...the screws can also crush the wood over time and the receiver would need to be rebedded.

I've heard some strange stuff come out of "gunsmiths" mouths, but a worn out headspace is a new one.

Everyone has given you some things to do that might help you solve your problem...many of which I would do first off.

Luck

The change in accuracy is probably not due to headspace, very unlikely. To have the gun suddenly change sounds like a muzzle crown problem. Even if you can't see a nick or other damage to the crown, it could be the problem. If cleaning and checking all the screws doesn't help, recrown. I have fixed an awful lot of accurcy problems by renewing the crown.....Tom

Head space and the M1917: For me not a problem, I form 30/06 cases from 280 Remington cases, the shoulder of the 280 is ahead of the 30/06 shoulder .041 thousands, when forming the case I back the die out .027 thousands, trim the neck with a hack saw then finish sizing with a full length sizer die with the same gap, I form first then fire.

Head space on the M1917 can be checked with a 280 Remington case, a no go-gage, a field gage,.head space on the M1917 head can be checked (in thousands) from go-gage length to infinity with a slightly modified go-gage. For those that are not used to the cock on close resistance to bolt closing I suggest stripping the bolt to determine head space, on the 03 stripping the bolt is not necessary, nor is the head space gage unless the rifle is used to shoot gages and not ammo, for 03 rifles used to shoot ammo I suggest head space is checked with the ammo the that will be fired in the chamber. it is not easy to get the 'head space gage, chamber and ammo to agree, I want to know the effect the chamber will have on the case when fired so I check head space first in thousands, then I form cases to fit, I form first then fire, tricky but not impossible, moving the shoulder for most is a matter of firing, I move the shoulder forward first then fire.

Then there is case head protrusion, or unsupported case, I have never found an 03 or M1917 with more than .090 thousands when measured from the bottom of the extractor cut on the cone faced barrel to the head of the case, one of my Eddystones has .016 thousands head space, unsupported case from the bottom of the extractor cut is .106, the case head thickness from the case head to the cup at the top of the web on military type cases like the LC, TW, SL and DM is .200 thousands, Remington R-P cases have a case head thickness of .260+, and I have found very few Mauser's that have less than .110 case head protrusion (unsupported case head).

Protrusion when measured from the face of the barrel must have head space added.

F. Guffey

The Mod 30 is cock on opening, but still has
the angled locking lugs.
Good luck!

There you are, when reading through this thread I noticed someone saying he had .000 head space because his bolt closed on a go-gage with slight resistance, before reading that I thought if the bolt closed on a 30/06 go-gage the chamber had .005 thousands head space, or the chamber was longer by .005 thousands from the bolt face to the shoulder than a minimum length, store bought, over the counter, commercial length case when measured from the head of the case to it's shoulder and the difference in length between of cases in a new box of 20 rounds could be .0015.

I was thinking the field gage used in the arsenals was referred to as being a (field) reject gage and before Keith Hatcher demonstrated how the gage could be used in a destructive manner, meaning he increased head space by forcing the bolt closed on the long gage. I can check head space on most chambers 3 different ways, some 4 without a go, no or beyond gage, the two easiest are the 03 and M1917.

The thought came to me to discuss the difficulty smiths have with the angled lugs on the M1917. I picked up 9 barrels from a custom builder of 8MM338 Winchester magnums that uses the the P14/M1917 action, I started like I had just discovered a new word, 'angle lugs', he decide real quick we were exempt from their problems because we do not use gages as in go, no and beyond, especially on the two easiest to check rifles because of their design. Head space could have been a matter of record and could have been stamped on the receiver before it left the Springfield Arsenal, same for the M1917, in my opinion that would have created another line, one line for completed and correct rifles and another line like a loop for rifles to be corrected.

Checking head space on the 03 and M1917 is so simple it could have been checked when issued for use without a gage in thousands.

F. Guffey

A couple of years ago I built a rifle. I used good stuff, and I hope, care. I took it to the range with my favorite load and it shot a 2-1/2" group. I was shocked and disappointed. By the way this rifle weighed 16 lbs, full bull barrel. I had.nt been doing any target shooting for years, only big game one a year and my hunting rifles were all setup. The man who was with me at the range hapopened to be an old grand master competetive shooter. He had been standing over me spotting when I shot. He said you're doing this, this, this, and this (all wrong). I pulled myself together and stopped doing those bad habbit things and the group shrank to 1-1/2" still not good enough, but enough of a difference to tell you that the "nut behind the wheel" can come loose too.

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
The angled lugs of the 1917 design were responsible for a FUBAR by one of the most respected (and vilified) gun writers of all time.

Yes, the fabled Elmer Keith, when working at the Ogden Arsenal during WW2, was tasked with checking the headspace of 1917 rifles. He did, very enthuiastically, with the result that all the rifles seemed to have been barreled incorrectly!?!

Imagine his disgust when his supervisor told him that HE had caused the excessive headspace with his trusty little Field gauge!

Elmer somehow fails to mention this escapade in his many writings, not even in his 2 autobiographies....
Regards, Joe

Maybe the OP's rifle NOW has excessive headspace, BECAUSE his gunsmith checked it.

Bruce