Curious as to the mindset. Is there a "standard" lop for a bolt action hunting rifle? Male, female, height, etc.

Perry

It really depends on the individual.Taller people will probably perfer around a 14" length of pull,shorter people 13.5 -13.75".https://www.ballisticmag.com/length-of-pull-guide/

I'd say 13.5" on average for a production rifle; 14 1/4 to 14.5" for a shotgun.

1903 Springfield's are almost an inch shorter. Remington 742 I remember was closer to 13". Youth rifles go shorter too.

Long enough so your thumb doesn't smack you in the nose, with your hunting clothes, on when you shoot.

Yes it depends on your arm length. However, industry standard is 13.5, and most guys and girls make do with that, unless they can afford custom. They learn to adapt to average.

Notice dimensions of stocks shown in "Dope Bag, American Rifleman. You are seeing more and more ( factory stocks) longer than 13.5" even for rifles


People are getting taller and factories are taking notice.

Someone once told me that the rule of thumb was 13 1/2" for a 5'10" person and for every 1" difference in height, adjust the length of pull 1/8" accordingly.

Everyone is built different, so no set formula will work all the time but this one works perfectly for me.
Phil

quote:

Originally posted by impala#03:
Long enough so your thumb doesn't smack you in the nose, with your hunting clothes, on when you shoot.

What if I shoot with my cloths are off?


Perry

That has been an age old issue.
Either use a slip on pad, or build a rifle for hot weather. That's what I do.

For me at 5'10 Remington and Winchester factory 870 and model 12 stocks fit very well.

Any firearm that come close duplicating those dimensions.

Fit me very well.

quote:

Originally posted by impala#03:
Long enough so your thumb doesn't smack you in the nose, with your hunting clothes, on when you shoot.

ye olde springfield nose wipe!!!
i learned to stop wrapping my thumb on a surplus 1903a3

commercial rifles come about 13.5

Right, but it ain't just height; it is girth, and arm length, which does vary from the usual arm span equals height norm. "Healthier" gentlemen tend to have more padding on the shoulder, chest, neck, face, and have a shorter reach, so they need a shorter stock.
But yes, most shooters learn to adapt to 13.5 even though it might not be perfect, they have nothing else to compare them to. I have customers actually try and mount stocks of varying LOPs, then they pick the best fitting one. Another rough way is the hold the grip in your hand, and lay the butt on your forearm. If it just touches your bicep, that's it.
Remember that military rifles were all developed in the 19th century when guys were a lot smaller. So we learned to adapt to them and not the other way round.
Custom, luck, or adapt, are the three COAs. And I used to tell my students that Hope is not a course of action. (As in, I hope the enemy won't do that so I'm not developing a plan for it)

Perry,
Maybe a little longer, just be careful of the hot brass!

there's no standard.
an open longer grip feels like a shorter pull length because your thumb is further back from the trigger. and you can't wrap your trigger finger all the way to the second knuckle.

All I know is that, as recoil increases, so should the LOP, right up to the farthest comfortable stretch of your neck.

That keeps your thumb away from your nose, makes you pull the rifle hard into your shoulder pocket, and firms up your cheek weld.

All good things for recoil management.

The English seem to traditionally build their bolt rifles with longer L.O.P. compared to the Americans. Most English bolt rifles seem to run 14 1/4” - 14 3/4” even in the smaller bores as 7X57. The Britts don’t seem to be of larger stature on average than the Americans. Personally the 13 1/2” L.O.P. average American stock does not handle or fit me well at all.

I was 6'1", wing span was 6'4 1/2".
Know I've lost height with knees and back troubles plus now am 77.
That's extra long arms. Used to say: "heavy rifles and no slings which I have no use for.
That when my knuckles started dragging on the ground I'd just switch to carrying it in the other hand awhile."

A 14 1/4" LOP is just right for me, still is at 250.

My Sako varmint rifle had about 12 1/2" LOP.
Way too damned short.
But, I adapted until the barrel shot out.
Then I put a new self made stock on that fit me. Made it a whole lot better.

Most shooters first comment they make is how heavy my guns are, Re: 10-11#,
then stocks are too long for them.

Best thing I can come up with: "get your own guns
and make 'em fit YOU. The we'll both be happy.

George

quote:

Originally posted by 4WD:
The English seem to traditionally build their bolt rifles with longer L.O.P. compared to the Americans. ...

I would assume this is because the English rifles don't have a grip that looks like a Rem700.

Right; they have the more swept back grip like a Rigby.

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:

quote:

Originally posted by 4WD:
The English seem to traditionally build their bolt rifles with longer L.O.P. compared to the Americans. ...

I would assume this is because the English rifles don't have a grip that looks like a Rem700.

Westley Richards , H&H, Rigby, etc. offer two distinct types of pistol grips. A very distinct tight pistol grip and a more open ,almost shotgun type grip. Either version of these two types of English bolt gun pistol grips still incorporate longer L.O.P. of 14 1/4 - 14 3/4” L.O.P.

you can have a rem style grip with a longer grip pull length than the standard rem where you can't pull the trigger with your second knuckle.

grip pull(distance from the furthest point back of the front of the trigger to the front of the grip cap) determines what's comfortable for pull length. also shooting discipline. prone rifle shooting requires different geometry than an off hand stalking rifle.

I think some of the english gunmakers hold their nose every time they build a bolt gun. there's no comparison between fit and finish for a bolt vs double.

there are a few exceptions, but they are not the rule. some of these exceptions are probably stocked by a US gunmaker who believes every stockmaking job is worth the effort it takes to do it right the first time.

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:
I think some of the english gunmakers hold their nose every time they build a bolt gun. there's no comparison between fit and finish for a bolt vs double.

there are a few exceptions, but they are not the rule. some of these exceptions are probably stocked by a US gunmaker who believes every stockmaking job is worth the effort it takes to do it right the first time.

Gunmaker,
I agree with you on most points about today’s world of “top” American rifle builders being head and shoulders above most across the pond builders today , especially when it comes to value. WR, H&H, Rigby, Hartman & Weiss, Dorleac & Dorleac, still produces some top quality bolt rifles in their bespoke lines, but some of these rifles are twice to three times more expensive as their American counterparts. Much different than the production type rifles being marketed by Rigby like the Highland Stalker, Big Game . One thing I don’t get is the lack of engineering fortitude of the English scope mounting systems.

I disagree with you about the English bolt rifles, especially those built around the prewar era. These bolt rifles set the world wide standard and many were built with the highest quality of workmanship and materials available. Not all game is best hunted with a double rifle and the English made many exceptional bolt action stalking rifles that handle like a fine shotgun. Way ahead of the American bolt guns of that time. The English had the innovation and experience.Many of these prewar bolt guns are still being hunted today. Some of these bolt rifles are functioning art and very reliable. These early British bolt rifles built on Mauser actions are what inspired Americans to enter into the custom bolt gun trade that have evolved into what we are using today.
Still the question is why did the English use a 1” longer length of pull on their bolt guns with both open and closed pistol grips, compared to the 13 1/2” American interpretations.

Bolt action sporting rifles were developed (especially on the Continent) so the peasants would have something to hunt with. No true English Gentleman would be caught dead in the field with one. As for you Americans; I find that 99% know nothing about shooting and make do with off the rack rifles with 13.5 LOP.
And still kill game.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Bolt action sporting rifles were developed (especially on the Continent) so the peasants would have something to hunt with. No true English Gentleman would be caught dead in the field with one. As for you Americans; I find that 99% know nothing about shooting and make do with off the rack rifles with 13.5 LOP.
And still kill game.

The bolt action was first made for war.

And it worked really well for that.

Afterwards, Americans, and Britons, and ass-kicked Jerrys, took it afield.

And it worked really well for that, too.

Still does.

War requires making one rifle for Everyman.

Peace means we can make them fit.

Every war rifle, and most peacetime factory-made hunting rifles, are far too short in LOP for me.

As an American, I can pay green dollars to make them fit, and I do.

God bless America.

Best,

And you (And every other AR Member; which definitely do not represent the shooting population as a whole) are obviously one of the one percenters who does not use factory rifles. Peacetime, however, has not made much change to factory LOPs. Same now as in 1946. Or 1919. Nothing earth shattering, that every AR member does not already know; just facts.
I, personally, will not carry a factory rifle into the field (except a double rifle, will not take a common caliber, and never take the same rifle twice. My data are taken from surveys on ranges and hunting fields for the past 60 years.
Don't forget that every bolt action battle rile was developed when men (women only recently were allowed into the Combat Arms by Western Powers), were much shorter.

War requires making one rifle for everyone? Actually not entirely true; The British had three lengths of Buttstocks for the Enfield.

From a custom rifle viewpoint...I can't remember but a very few times, building a rifle with 13 1/2" pull.

Even the "average" will want something North of 13 3/4"

A big bore... usually 1/2" and up to 1" longer.

Usage of the rifle is the best indicator of LOP. Since warfare seems to be a common thread here I will address that first. A soldier clearing rooms in a city , or one on a long range recon in the jungle will be best off with a short LOP than a sniper or soldier fighting in open country.

Likewise, Those of us hunting dangerous game in thick cover and cold climates often prefer shorter LOP than those hunting game in open country in temperate conditions.

In my experience it is easier to shoot well with a slightly shorter LOP than with a loner one .

Not to mention that soldiers are not 50+ year old men. You want very young guys to do that job.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
From a custom rifle viewpoint...I can't remember but a very few times, building a rifle with 13 1/2" pull.

Even the "average" will want something North of 13 3/4"

A big bore... usually 1/2" and up to 1" longer.

Just curious why that would be. Please keep in mind that I have never have, and likely never will hunt dangerous game. But it seems to me I'd want a smaller caliber rifle to train with. I would also think I would want the same LOP on both. Wouldn't be to much fun if I had to throw the big rifle up for a quick shot and the longer LOP gets hung up under my arm pit and I end being used for traction by a angry Buffalo. What am I missing?

Thanks,
John

I've always erred on the side of ""If he wants a blue suit, turn on the blue lights"

A heavy hitter SEEMS to need that extra length..

And...Perhaps room for thumb to nose colision?

Kinda been the norm long as I can remember. Note the Jim Camichel's books advocate the same.

A few times to the shoulder is about all it takes to adapt ...and there may be some reduction to felt recoil.

And... Africa hunting....Heat, light clothing ...Lots different than Wisconsin with layers of down clothing...been in both conditions, so I can see some logic.

Bear hunt in Alaska? I seee YOUR logic!

After shooting prone with a sling in Small bore prone for over a decade, I measured my length of pull from the trigger, as I was curious to know what I had determined to be the most comfortable length. It was 14 to 14.25 inches. That surprised me as all the military stocks I have used are shorter, about 13.5inches. But then, I over 6 feet, closer to 6 ft 1in.

I measured a bunch of military bolt gun stocks, I recall the straight grip M1903 was 12.5 inches. It was brutal shooting one of those prone, the damn cocking piece and stock would leave my lips bruised. Most of the military Mausers ran 13.0 to 13.5 inches. The Swedes had to be big guys, as the M1896 Swedish length of pull was 14 inches. That is big for the late 1800's.

Anyway I have been adding spacers to older rifles to get the pull length correct







When ordering rifle stocks, I want 14 to 14.25 so the bolt does not hit my nose when open, or the scope bell hit my glasses on recoil!



No one shoots offhand anymore, but when I did in NRA competition, I wanted a short stock to bring the center of gravity in. Offhand is a lost art, very difficult to do. Now days, shooters rest their rifle on a tripod they stored on their all terrain vehicle.

quote:

Originally posted by SlamFire:
No one shoots offhand anymore, but when I did in NRA competition, I wanted a short stock to bring the center of gravity in.

True. Unless the center of gravity is moving rearwards at your shoulder with 100+ ft.-lbs. of recoil energy!

I have never bought the argument that CQB requires a short LOP, BTW.

If I'm closing on DG, my rifle is already shouldered and ready, or damned close to it.

My only occasion of "Weatherby Eyebrow" was done as a mistake (as they ALL are). I had been shooting a 22 L.R. all day + a buddy asked if I wanted to try his new 270. Sure, + I cradled it just like the 22s I had been shooting + got a wakeup call. My fault of course.

quote:

I measured a bunch of military bolt gun stocks, I recall the straight grip M1903 was 12.5 inches. It was brutal shooting one of those prone, the damn cocking piece and stock would leave my lips bruised.

My first deer rifle was a full military 03a3 at 12y0a I hated the recoil.

I told myself my children would have something better.

So I made up a TC contender carbine in 357 max. 4.5lbs scope.

The children that have used it love it light to carry, not afraid of the round.

Hardly any recoil.

They out grow it in a couple of years.

Kills deer well.

I was 6-3 for years and shot 13-7/8 to 14, but as Ive aged I shoot a 13.5 comfortably and handle the gun faster..Also Ive shrunk to about 6-1

I think most factory rifles have a 13.5 LOP, most Ive measured do..Most of my life stocks I made for myself were 13-5/8 to 13-7/8s a few 14..

But most folks don't seem to realize the most big game hunting is in the winter and dress is heavy and that makes a big difference as does your position at the shot, a rest over a rock or log requires a shorter LOP than off hand standing for instance. at my age today I like 13.5 for all around and Im 6 to 6-1. All this can make a difference to some and others do well with whatever you hand them..