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| One of Us |
I inherited my great grandfather's old waterfowl gun, a 10 Ga. Joseph Lang hammer gun. Does anyone know if there is anyone in the US who would proof such a gun so that I can tell if I can get the old girl out in the swamp again? I actually hunt pretty much where my great grandfather did (same lake, but maybe 1/3 mile different spot.) and it would be neat to try using it. | ||
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| One of Us |
When I went through this process, with my pop's old damascus shot gun. I decided to retire it by placing the firing pin in the barrel, in a plastic bag with a note explaining why it is there. I also "spiked" the firing pin hole with a proper sized nail, that can be drifted out. He had constantly proofed it with high brass smokeless loads for more that 50 years, but not for me or my son. There were what I would call nitro for black loads for 12 gauges. And you could load her with black powder. Maybe some of our other members will have a better idea. I'll be following the discussion. | |||
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| One of Us |
I would suggest an inspection by a competent double gunsmith as opposed to proofing the gun. You might try Dennis Potter in Wisconsin, he is very knowledgeable on vintage guns. If it is sound, then feed it appropriate ammo and move on. I shoot quite a few old shotguns, including damascus barrels, they do not require much special care other than proper shells. Joseph Lang built some wonderful guns. | |||
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| One of Us |
Waterfowl. Steel shot REQUIRED nation wide. I don't care if it is in a shotcup on its way down the barrel. Not gonna' do it. Not choked properly for steel. Not if the gun as any value to me, or anyone else. Clean it, preserve it, put it up as a remembrance of your grandfather. | |||
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| One of Us |
Lots of folks still use vintage guns in the field, including Waterfowlers. Non-tox is indeed a requirement nation wide, Bismuth either handloaded or from RST would be a fine option for an occasional shooter. | |||
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One of Us |
Let me put this in caps: DO NOT EVEN THINK ABOUT "PROOF TESTING" A DAMASCUS SHOTGUN. DO NOT EVEN THINK ABOUT SHOOTING ANY DAMASCUS BARRELED SHOTGUN, ESPECIALLY WITH DUCK LOADS. (Yes some do shoot them with light loads; another thing) DO NOT EVEN SUGGEST A NATIONAL LAW REQUIRING PROOF TESTING. USE A STEEL BARRELED GUN. IN THIS CASE, NOSTALGIA WILL GET YOUR FINGERS BLOWN OFF. | |||
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Just have it looked at by a good double gun guy. Right here are proper waterfowl loads that won't hurt the gun if it is in good shape. Availability is spotty. https://www.rstshells.com/store/m/10-Gauge.aspx | |||
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| One of Us |
The thing is in pretty good shape, although the chamber end of the barrel is a bit rough, probably from years of black powder and mercuric priming. Its a 10 Ga 2 7/8 inch gun- modern 3.5" shells don't even fit in it fully. I have had it looked at by a local guy who says it looks good, but also admits he's not a real expert and could not offer more, other than mentioning sending it somewhere for reproofing. I know this can be done in England and on the continent, but I would rather not make that trip. An email to the Lang website got me no response. Steve, thanks for the suggestion, I will have to look in to him. I have heard that there is damascus and then there is cheap damascus. Obviously, this was a better class gun and a London gun, so I don't think its a "cheap" one. The browning is still pretty good in most places on it. I do usually use bismuth shot for waterfowl, but am intrigued by the idea of nitro for black in it, thus the interest in possible proofing. I figured (and might be wrong) that if I had it proofed, that would prove one way or the other if it was safe to use. I do handload, and have loaded 12 gauge black powder shotshells, but so far have been running into a blank for the 10 ga brass rounds. Obviously, steel or tungsten are no go in this class of gun. As to DPCD, why not? Yes, I get that you should not shoot them with high end modern factory fodder, 3.5" modern 10 ga is much higher pressure and recoil than the old 10 ga 2 7/8 loads... but isn't that the point of proofing, to verify that the gun is safe at a certain level? I am not asking for any law to be made, rather trying to determine if an old gun is still safe to use for the purpose it was made. I am not thinking of doing some abortion like rechambering it to 3.5 or such. Honestly, it is much lighter than most modern 12 ga guns like a Citori. 2 1/4 oz loads would be brutal in it. | |||
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Moderator |
proofing is meant to show that a gun can take an over pressure load without damage.. ONCE, and when NEW you COULD go through a European/UK proofhouse, maybe ... it's damascus - load nitro-for-black proper loads, and move on.. it's been a minute since i've seen 2 7/8 10ga, and (a very big) IF i recall, those were all paper shells it's old, the metal, compared to today, is very soft, etc... you might send it to a shotgun company (is brieley's still in business?) and access it for shootability with proper loads .. i would expect, in big bold letters, it to have the phrase "we do not recommend shooting this firearm" included in the documentation, regardless of mechanical condition, due to age and damascus barrels i might would load up some nitro-for-black loads, and tie it to a tire (buttstock in the tire, forearm over the tire, with a loop holding the forearm to the tire) and fire it a couple times, to make certain it can work ... then again, i might just make a wallhanger out of it .. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
That. And Damascus is welded iron and steel; forge welded and twisted to form the patterns. Forge welds, over 150 years, can form weak spots if just one little spec of slag gets into the weld. How much pressure will you proof it with? And do you trust it after that over stress? And for ducks, you have to use steel shot; not good for many steel barrels, not to mention Damascus. Only if you do not value your fingers. Up to the owner, of course, just my opinion. | |||
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So you cannot proof it for nitro for black level pressure? Again, I am not trying to make it do something it can't. It is a 140-150 year old gun that has been in the family the whole time. To the best of my knowledge, my great grandfather hunted with it last in the 1930's, and then transitioned to a 16 ga Browning A5. When he died, it went to my grandfather, who stuck it in its case and left it in his storeroom. I got it from there when we sold the house. The 16 ga gun was stolen in a cabin break in in the 50's. So this is the only gun from my great grandfather still in the family. My goal would be to proof test it to show its safe with the nitro for black level loads, and then load like 1 1/2 oz of #4 bismuth at right around 1200 FPS (I think the old BP loads were that area). I would prefer to get brass shells as they are a bit more durable, but I suspect I am going to be cutting off modern 10 ga hulls at 2 7/8" and roll crimping them. I agree that there are all kinds of unknowns as to damascus barrels, but I have seen folks shooting them as well. If you think steel is the only shot allowable for waterfowl, then you are operating in error. Tungsten matrix was used by some (made by Kent) in older guns, but that's gone now. ITX shot was supposedly safe for old guns, but I don't think that is still made. Then there is Bismuth, which is also used by a lot of vintage gun shooters. Its not quite as dense as lead, but close and behaves quite similarly. Yes, all of the non steel alternatives are much more expensive and not available usually in stores as ammo. But buying a box or two of brass hulls, and loading up a box or two and using this gun on a decent weather day where my great grandfather hunted ducks sounds like a good thing to me. I don't want to destroy the gun, and don't want to be unsafe. But I also don't want to call it a wallhanger either.
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And yes, I have a part of a box of very old high brass paper roll crimped shells that came with the gun. They are marked as 4 1/4-1 5/8-6. 4 1/4 drams, 1 5/8 oz #6 shot. And no, I have no desire to cut them open to see if they are BP or nitro, They are marked as Peters. | |||
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| one of us |
Ross Seyfried penned a article in Guns@Ammo about 40 years ago on how and why one can use Damascus shotguns. He had loads in the 4500psi range well with in the safe range of Damascus barrels I would not be afraid to shoot a good quality Damascus shotgun that was inspected and was solid. With his low pressure smokeless loads. I myself having done so many times using his data. | |||
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| One of Us |
The British Proof Houses will re-proof damascus bbled guns. They run them through the same proofing as the steel bbled guns that were made just this week. No special loads for the Damascus bbl'd guns, no special treatment or pressures allowed for them. They get the same Smokeless Proof as the modern steel bbl'd guns of today. The gun, if it passes will be marked with the same London or Birmingham smokeless proof marks indicating that it passed proof. Getting the gun there is the costly part along with what ever fees involved in the actual proofing. Most guns that Fail proofing, do so first w/o ever being fired. They fail on the 'View Proof' That is they fail the test(s) for headspace, lockup, extreme pitting in the bore(s) or chamber(s) and all the other specs inspected for even before the gun is proof fired. It is very rare that a firearm 'blows up' during proof firing. After Proof firing, the gun is again View Proofed. This time the specs are again checked to make sure that the once secure breech lockup has not become loose. That headspace has remained tight and within spec, no bulges in the bbl(s) and all the other points of inspection. If it passes,,it is Proof Marked as such. Smokeless Proof marks are applied. No such facility in the USA. You can ask a trusted Gunsmith to inspect it, but I know none w/ X-ray vision. I doubt there are many that would load any home brewed Proof Rounds of their own and fire it and then proclaim it safe and hand it back to you. They can check Headspace, lock up, bbl wall thickness (This last is not a concern in English Proof Hs specs AFAIK,,it either holds or it doesn't. Aluminum Foil thickness tubes would likely reject the gun from proof during the View process. But AFAIK there is no minimum bbl wall thickness listed.) Plenty of shooters in the Vintage SxS game using damascus bbl'd guns. Loads using smokeless powder generating pressures in the just under 5K psi to just under 7K psi range for 12ga are printed in the powder makers reloading manuals. You must abide by the components used in the recipes and not change brands. The back and forth about wether they are safe to use is as on going as the over the fence shouting match about wether a Low# 03 Springfield is a handgrenade in your hands or wallhanger. Read up on it and pick your side. If you have the slightest doubt as to the safety of it,,then don't. I've shot them for many yrs, but I would never tell anyone else to do so. Make your own decision. | |||
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I was in Australia with my Aussie buddy. We stopped at a gunsmith friend of his. He had a set of damascus barrels with plugs in them. They were filled with light oil and had been put under pressure. He leaves them overnight and checks for seepage coming through. That was one of the checks he did on the old guns. | |||
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| One of Us |
There are plenty of known safe guns out there so I would never even consider shooting a potential grenade shotgun. And I don't do nostalgia, whatever that is. I have a blown up low number 03 here; I'll dig it out and post pictures of it. Again, of course, anyone is free to do whatever they deem good. | |||
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one of us |
Sherman Bell did several articles on shooting Damascus guns in the now-defunct Double Gun Journal. Worth looking up. There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t. – John Green, author | |||
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One of Us |
Proof testing is not related to the ritual washing of hands by a priest but a potentially destructive process intended to protect the public from negligent gun makers. If I already owned a gun of any collector value, it's not somewhere I would want to go. | |||
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| Moderator |
there it is, i KNEW there was a reason i felt a kindred spirit, .. well, other than us also being curmudgeons opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
LOL!!! Sam; NO, we do not want or need the Govt to protect us from unsafe guns. Our policy of letting the producer insure safety has worked for us so far. I am pretty sure that countries that do have Govt proofing laws do not produce any safer guns than we do here. | |||
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| one of us |
Agree 100% | |||
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| One of Us |
I once lived on a privately maintained built and maintained road, with a "maintence agreement" The ones closest to the county road were always dragging their feet to pay up until we petitioned the ccounty to make the road agreement part of the property tax sort of held in escow. Problem solv ed! You see...some times you just need government intervention. I still advocate a voluntary proof facility, perhaps under the control of SAAMI ?..ect. to provide universal standards dpcd! The overseas proof houses simply will refuse to proof a shaky jake POS junk. Seldom do they "blow up" a gun. Even after proof fired and joints become loose, head space increases, etc ..no stamp! | |||
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| One of Us |
Right. However, I want NO more Govt intervention in firearms; too much now, and I do not see any benefit or need of a private facility either. It won't happen anyway, too expensive, near zero demand, and too much liability. The only guns I have seen blow up are from idiot reloaders. One of my friends does one in every year. Usually Rem 700s, and he blows out the bolt face. Last year in prairie dog hunting he did get a face full of blood specks. Broke one bolt handle off. Several others. He should not be reloading. | |||
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| One of Us |
I do nostalgia, in quantity. Despite what you might hear in the latest magazine article, the old guns work just fine in the field if you take the time to understand them and feed them properly. I have been shooting damascus about 30 years, these days mostly rifles because I am a one shotgun man and it has steel tubes. All the guns pictured were built between the early 1800's and 1920s. I have a few modern guns and use them in the field when I need to, begrudgingly. Back when I could see, lasered after the shot 205 yards with irons, the only single shot in .30 Super that Holland made. Gun was built in the 20's.  Damascus barreled, converted from percussion to centerfire, 16ga bore and a 14ga chamber. I restored the rifle.  Original Remington roller converted to inline muzzleloader and sidelever opening.  .30 super, shot him in his bed and belly crawled through a prairie dog town to get the shot.  Another with the roller, maybe my favorite buck, taken about 2 feet off the end of the barrel, so close I did not shoulder the gun or use the sights, just pointed it like a stick and pulled the trigger.  1890s A Henry double rifle in .360 bpe and a really nice Tom.  late 1830's or early 1840's Wm Moore 14 bore and a nice Muley  Paradox gun with a hen.  Wm Moore again  The shotgun, 2&1/2" with a limit of wild roosters.  Nothing wrong with nostalgia at all as long as you are willing to work within the limitations of the old guns, they work great. | |||
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| new member |
If you used a 10ga to 12ga reducer sleeve and shot 12ga shells in your damascus 10ga, would this be safe? 10ga to 12ga reducer Or use an adapter to shoot .22LR or pistol calibers (.38Sp and others) from a break-action shotgun. Make a custom 10ga-to-.22LR adapter. Or maybe a 12ga-to-.22LR adapter could work inside a 10ga-to-12ga reducer. 12ga to 22LR adapter Sounds hokey but better than just hanging it up over the fireplace. | |||
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| One of Us |
Just using old guns is not nostalgia and the real point is that it is not worth trying to use a Damascus shotgun to shoot ducks with. . | |||
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| One of Us |
My point is that it is most assuredly worth it getting these old guns up and going, a damascus 10 bore for Ducks is not an issue if you understand the guns and are willing to work within the parameters which they were designed to function. The Brits never stopped shooting damascus and I have been shooting them for decades, perfectly safe if you understand what you are dealing with. | |||
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| one of us |
I have a old hammer 12ga I found one like it for sale in a 1890's Sears catalog. It sold for about 9 dollars. It has Damascus barrels the bores are bright and shiny. The outside shows it was well used. I know my uncle shot a bunches smokeless 1oz factory loads through it. I load a 1oz load at about 4500psi for 1100fps. kills game well. It was my grandfathers. I had to make new firing pins for it as the tips were broken off. I put return springs on them to prevent this from happening again. Would not be afraid to take it out today with those lower pressure lads. | |||
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| One of Us |
Wrong! The damn fool shuld not own a firearm | |||
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| one of us |
Everything you need to know about getting a gun re-proofed in the UK. I did it about 25 years ago, much more expensive now. I failed View Proof here in the US at Westley Richards, rib was loose. I had that repaired then sent it to Birmingham. I was able to mail the gun there myself then. Had a bit of trouble getting it back, but all done.
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one of us |
Maybe contact Briley and see if they can make tubes for a 10ga--if so, get a set of 12 ga tubes fitted to your gun and shoot whatever strength modern loads Briley approves? LTC, USA, RET Benefactor Life Member, NRA Member, SCI & DSC Proud son of Texas A&M, Class of 1969 "A man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?" Robert Browning | |||
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| One of Us |
Sorry dpcd, I was not criticising your post but hoping to bring more attention to it. I don't have an opinion on mandatory proof testing, except that it would be a good way to destroy old favorites. | |||
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One of Us |
Look up Ross Seyfried. If anyone can help you get on the right track with your gun, he can. Last I knew he had moved to Kentucky. All We Know Is All We Are | |||
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| One of Us |
I cannot see any competent gunsmith, or any company the provides gunsmithing services, approving the use of that shotgun, no matter if it is in pristine condition. That would be a tremendous amount of liability to assume, having no control over what ammunition it might be fed. An 'aged' firearm, made using long abandon manufacturing methods? The lawyers would be all over that, after you've lost a few fingers and the use of a hand. If you want to use it in the duck blind, go ahead! Take that 'risk' yourself. | |||
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| One of Us |
My clients feel I'm competent, they keep returning for more service and seem to retain all of their digits as well. Some of us still shoot these "aged" firearms and I have made a career out of maintaining, restoring and selling them. I'm not convinced that every gunsmith in the country needs to run from a firearm that is chambered in an obsolete cartridge, the liability is on the user and reloader not the gunsmith. Have any of you seen a Vintager shoot? I have been a member in the past, the guy in the tweed hat is Charlie, a good friend and client. https://kdvr.com/news/outdoor-...oot-enthusiasts-say/ | |||
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| One of Us |
First, all damascus is not created equal. If you want to go to the trouble, read Burrard and Greener's comments on various strength test(blowup) that were conducted after Whitworth steel came into common usage in the early 1900's. The late Cyril Adams, one time principle owner of Grant Atkin and Lang, had dozens of Damascus guns reproved to current standards. If you want to shoot a quality damascus rifle or shotgun become knowledgable, load or buy appropriate pressure loads and go have fun. | |||
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one of us |
RST offers 10 ga 2-7/8" shells in a variety of bismuth shot sizes. They carry 1-1/8 oz of shot and have an advertised velocity of 1250 fps, a very light load in a 10 ga. Trying to concoct your own "Nitro for Black", in other words low pressure, smokeless loads for 2-7/8" 10 ga is not easy because of the near complete lack of published data in 10 ga 2-7/8". The Hodgdon 'reloading data center' on the web lists all of three loads (lead shot, not bismuth), though the good news is that they are all under 7500 PSI. When I was loading for older 10s I stuck to black powder and usually 1-1/8 oz of lead shot and fiber wads. And just for tourist info I also discovered that a 10 ga MEC 600 Jr press would easily convert from 3-1/2" to 2-7/8" and back again in the same way that 12, 16 and 20 600 Jrs convert from 3" to 2-3/4" and back again. Out of curiosity, what does that Lang hammer gun show for marks under the barrels? Those marks can give a range for its original manufacture date. Are the barrels "on face", in other words do the barrels wiggle with the gun closed and the forend removed? And if you remove the barrels from the action and dangle them in mid-air on your finger by the lumps, then tap the barrels with something like a wooden pencil, do the barrels ring like wind chimes or just make a dull thunk sound? I do love my old guns and rifles, but I also love having hands and fingers. Still attached, that is. | |||
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