What is the difference between large ring mausers and small ring mausers?
Is the Interarms MK X/Charles Daly a large ring?

Yes the MKX, Daly, FN are all large ring.

The difference in them is that one uses a 1.1" (Approx) diameter thread shank (Large Ring) and the small ring is less than 1". I don't know what the metric equivelants are. I usually measure the diameter of the threads on the barrel I remove, turn the major diameter of the shank slightly larger on the new barrel and then cut the threads until it will screw most of the way by hand. The thread pitch is metric but SAE thread of 12TPI works just fine.

Thread pitch is not metric. It is 12 tpi Whitworth.

The true small ring mauser is a pre-98. It is a cock on closing model with a front ring diameter nominally measuring 1.310". True, it does take a barrel thread of .980"x12 tpi Whitworth.

The large ring or standard 98 cocks on closing and has a nominal front ring diameter of 1.410". It takes a barrel threaded 1.100"x12 tpi Whitworth.

To confuse things there are standard 98's like the G33-40 and vz33 not to mention the Brno M21, M22, and zg47 that have a front ring diameter of roughly 1.310" and the same .980"x12 tpi threading of the small ring. These are usually referred to as small ring 98's.

The Mexican 1910's and 36's are also small ring 98's but of intermediate length not standard.

we are mixing a couple items... large ring actions are all 98s (iirc, there are no non-98 that a large ring)

most small rings are pre-m98, though there are a couple small ring 98s...

then there's the large/small journal/barrel shank

small ring shank is .980,
large ring hank 1.1

basically, all pre-1998s are small rings
MOST post 1998 MODELS are large ring

most small rings have small ring shanks
most large rings have large ring shanks,

though there ARE small ringactions with large journel (santa bababra?)

and large ring actions with small ring shank
turk 1903.


cocking on open can be chabged, so don't count on it.

easist way to tell if it's a 98 (and you don't actually know from experience) is to pull the bolt, and see.. there should be 3 locking lugs on a 98 (2 front, 1 rear) and 2 on a 96 or back

jeffe

Jeffe,

Who is confusing things?

I don't think I said there were any large rings that weren't 98's?

Gentlemen, I know the difference between the large ring and the small ring Mauser actions but with your discriptions even Paul Mauser would be confused. The large ring is openly a large front ring visible to the naked eye. The small ring has straight sides right through the front ring. Small ring usually cocks on close but can be converted to cock on open. Large ring cocks on open. The large ring can be recognized by the lay person by the change in diameter at the front portion of the action commonly refered to as the front ring. The action of the 98 or large ring has a step in the front known as the front ring.

Now I will apolagise for sounding like a smart donkey and I am sorry for spouting off.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
we are mixing a couple items... large ring actions are all 98s (iirc, there are no non-98 that a large ring)

most small rings are pre-m98, though there are a couple small ring 98s...

then there's the large/small journal/barrel shank

small ring shank is .980,
large ring hank 1.1

basically, all pre-1998s are small rings
MOST post 1998 MODELS are large ring

most small rings have small ring shanks
most large rings have large ring shanks,

though there ARE small ringactions with large journel (santa bababra?)

and large ring actions with small ring shank
turk 1903.


cocking on open can be chabged, so don't count on it.

easist way to tell if it's a 98 (and you don't actually know from experience) is to pull the bolt, and see.. there should be 3 locking lugs on a 98 (2 front, 1 rear) and 2 on a 96 or back

jeffe

A lot of the early transitional Oberndorf 98s had small barrel shanks on large rings too. My two Rigby/Mauser 303s are examples of such. One dates to 1899 and one to 1916. They were probably both made in '98 or '99 and the older later was inventoried at Rigby and pulled out to finish as a sniper rifle in 1916. I say it was inventoried because I'm thinking it unlikely Mauser was selling rifles to the British in 1916!

A picture is worth a 1000 words.

The one on the right is a small ring. Notice how the side is straight, no protrusion at the front ring.


Picture two.


The one in the back is a large ring. See the protrusion in front? All M98's will cock on opening. If it cocks on closing it's not a M98, it's something different.

Terry

Is there a weight saving in the small ring BRNO 21/22 vs the large ring BRNO ZG47?(action and bolt only)

Seems I remember an Erfurt action which was a small ring large thread that cocked on opening. Made at Erfurt and so marked. When I was in gunsmith school these were deemed to be unsafe with modern loads but cheap and were used with such as 7x57,257 etc. Seems they were made around 1918 or so.

Not enough to notice. While the OD is smaller, so is the ID of the front ring (usually) so it's a net zero (almost) prospect.

While not all that common, except maybe in 45-70 conversions, there is the Siamese version of the M98. It resembles a small ring in the receiver configuration, but the barrel threads are different from the large ring and the small ring Mausers. Like all other 98's it cocks on opening and has the three locking lugs.

The Mauser "experts" disagree as to even the
total rifles made. There were some where between
14 million, and 40 million. My point is there
is a lot of room for variations. One should not
be so positive in their opinions.
The Springfield 03 was a small ring mauser
(crossed with a Krag), it cocked on opening.
Good Luck!

quote:

Originally posted by hawkins:
The Mauser "experts" disagree as to even the
total rifles made. There were some where between
14 million, and 40 million. My point is there
is a lot of room for variations. One should not
be so positive in their opinions.
The Springfield 03 was a small ring mauser
(crossed with a Krag), it cocked on opening.
Good Luck!

hawkins,
numbers made of mauser is a question of measurement of models and collection of record.. that is, how many plants made mausers, of which models, for how long.. including commericals, one-offs, gun smith actions.. and "date codes" when germany could make actions.

There's no imperical way to "measure" how many where made, from which time frame (these are still being made today, so any number is actually void the second it's typed)

However, "small ring" and "large ring" are things that one can walk out into the shop and put a caliper on. (assuming unground actions)

large journal/small journal is the identical thing...

craigster is correct, the siamese looks like a small ring, but measurement actually shows it to be a large ring with a blended side. iirc the journal is the same as a large ring, but the thread pitch is different.

"the springfield was a small ring..."

(grin) with humor, this is where I have to :BS: call the BS card... the US government has to pay a patent infringement on the BOLT and extractor.. not the external configuration. the design is actually a krag modifed with mauser design... and neither is accurate or measurable.

jeffe

Real large ring Mauser barrel threads are M2 x28MM. Whitworth is a British thread form.

quote:

Originally posted by 1894mk2:
Is there a weight saving in the small ring BRNO 21/22 vs the large ring BRNO ZG47?(action and bolt only)

Yes, on the 21H is considerably lighter than the ZG-47. One thing to keep in mind though is barrel contours. The 21H is very petite everywhere it could be, stock, barrel etc. The ZG-47 is a standard weight hunting rifle. If you have both side by side the ZG-47 feels hefty in comparison.

Terry

Real large ring Mauser barrel threads are M2 x 28MM. Whitworth is a British thread form.

quote:

Originally posted by huntingcat:
Real large ring Mauser barrel threads are M2 x 28MM. Whitworth is a British thread form.

It may be a British thread form but that does'nt stop the Germans from using it,they also use bsp for there plumbing.

huntingcat,

Since the British were the best firearms manufacturers at the time, the Germans bought Whitworth tooling from them to thread their actions with.

That's why the barrel, receiver, and action screws are Whitworth thread.

(Or so I've been told.)

And think about it, the UK isn't all that far away from Germany...Mexico buys tooling from the US all the time. So to me the idea sounds plausible.

I got the thread designation backward. It should be M28 x 2 metric thread.

Huntingcat,

You sir are very wrong.

Poleax is correct on the Whitworth threads. According to Ludwig Olsen (NRA Reprint, "Mauser Rifles"), " the V threads on Mauser 98 barrels are of British Whitworth form with a rounded crest and root, and the included angle is 55 degrees...barrels have 12 threads per inch, and the diameter over the threaded portion is 1.10". "

Jeffo; My point was that there are many variations as regards Receiver/ thread shank, thread length. Almost any combination may occur,
as soon as they open up another hidden cache
we will have a new generation of experts.
No problem with the large ring being larger, the discussion had wandered into variations.
As to your BS card, the patent infringemen was for the clip.
Good Luck!

Hawkins,
fair enough!!

jeffe

Burgie,
are these drawn in a cad package? I would like a copy

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by Poleax:
Huntingcat,

You sir are very wrong.

I am wrong. The threads are 1.100" diameter, 55 degree included angle, rounded root and crest 12 threads per inch Whitworth thread form.

I missed yet another opportunity to be silent.

Hell, no one likes to be around a guy that's never wrong. This was your one time for the year!