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I'm trying to set up a simple, reliable home defense weapon that all members of the house will know how to use. I've decided against any sort of handgun, as the training involved would be too great for younger people. This might be off-topic for this board, but I'm not real familiar with either of these weapons, so I'm seeking real accuracy and reliability input. The first choice is the Uzi Carbine from Vector Arms: http://www.vectorarms.com/photos/carbineFull.GIF It has a fixed stock, 16" bbl, and would be in 45ACP. The second choice is the tactical entry AR from Rock River Arms: http://www.rockriverarms.com/images/m4entry.gif Of course, this is your standard 16" bbl AR, except that the buttstock is several inches shorter and it has a lower profile rear sight setup. I would get this without any sort of muzzle brake - the extra noise from these things really irritates me. So, we have the venerable 45ACP in a carbine vs. the .223 in a carbine. Both have short bbls and short stocks for easy handling with mild recoil, so women and children should be able to fire them with no problems. Weekend plinking ought be fun and cheap with either one, too. MSRP for each is right at $875 I know the AR is very accurate and reliable. I've fired several, but do not own one yet. Does anyone have experience with the new UZIs? Supposedly they are not being made as disposable weapons any more. What kind of accuracy are they capable of? The AR could be used for the occasional varminting, I suppose, so perhaps there are more uses for that one. But, the 45ACP is a proven stopper round. Does the .223 do any better when loaded with highly frangible varminting bullets? I am worried about over penetration, as we are in a populated area, and the 45 seems to be the better way to go at this point. Any other thoughts out there? Any other handy, short, light recoiling carbines I missed? I've also moved away from shotguns, as I like the ability to have more rounds on tap and reload using magazines - if the gun is stored empty, it will be ready faster if you can store loaded magazines. Sorry for the long post, but I'm trying to get this sorted out in the midst of a series of death threats ![[Confused]](images/icons/confused.gif){kind=icon} I need something that will work every single time it is picked up, and do the job if it is needed. thanks a bunch...maxman | ||
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I normally do not respond to this kind of post but I think both of your choices for a home defense weapon need to be thought out a little better. the .223 AR can over penetrate and requires a bit of handling to funtion the bolt carrier, safety, so on and so forth and requires accurate pointing. I don't anything about the UZI so can't comment. I personally would go after some form of pump action shotgun with a short barrel. This could be left loaded in the magazine tube (not chamber)and could be quickly brought to bare with one swipe of the slide. Just something to think about! | |||
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TBS - I do agree that the pump 12 ga is probably the best one for this application, and I have been using one as such for some time now. My problem is the need to store the gun without any ammo in it at all. I need to have the mag in my pocket, etc with the gun within reach, but yet not leaving a loaded weapon laying around. This rules out my existing shotguns and revolvers. I don't want to go to an auto pistol as there are too many things that can go wrong with that weapon in a tense situation. A person realistically needs a _lot_ of training to be an effective handgunner under stress. A carbine would be easier to use (much like a shotgun with a short bbl), and the semi auto function leaves little for the user to do but squeeze. Once the gun is on the shoulder, aiming is fairly automatic. I need to be able to store loaded magazines out of the gun so all the person has to do is insert the mag and cycle the action to be ready. I do appreciate any input the group can share. This is not one of those theoretical 'which is better' discussions that I see so often here. I'm trying to find out how reliable the new UZIs are compared to the AR family. The 45ACP should be an ideal round in a carbine - it is for a pistol! Like I said, this might not be the best forum for this topic, but I thought that someone here might have comparative mechanical knowledge of these. thanks again. maxman | |||
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quote:Why? There are excellent wall mounts that keep a shotgun locked against a wall with a full magazine and an empty chamber. If you MUST have a weapon with a detachable magazine, I would say a 40 S&W or 45 ACP carbine is FAR preferable to anything shooting 223 Remington. Regardless of what you may think, 223 Rem is a highpower centerfire cartridge, and as such completely inappropriate for a home defense role since you live in a populated area. I strongly suggest the Ruger PC-40, the Heckler & Koch USP 45, or the Beretta CX4 Storm. | |||
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Well, when my family is killin home invaders, the barrels on the Uzis can get pretty hot! ![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif){kind=icon} Seriously, I think one of the old H&R type single-shot shotguns would be ideal. The guns store nicely behind doors and in corners, the shells (birdshot preferred) fit in your pockets (or anywhere else) better than a high capacity magazine, and the very simple/reliable design is easiest for anyone to use safely under stress. Any shotgun is devastating at close range. Even though you only get one shot at a time, there is no thought required in reloading them. Also, just having one shot may cause an inexperienced shooter to pause just long enough to realize the "intruder" is really just dad raiding the fridge. Another benefit is they cost about $40.00 used, and you won't miss it when the police take it for their investigation. At that price, you can afford two or three of the same guage (for different locations), so one will always be nearby without having to tote it around. I guess it all boils down to whether you want a "scary, bad" weapon or a practical one. When you go to court, its better to be perceived as defending your family with an old fashioned farm gun than with a high-tech "assault weapon". Personally, I'd consider a big dog. - John [ 07-30-2003, 03:31: Message edited by: Beelzebubba ] | |||
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Just buy a break action 12 ga. double barrel (hammerless 3" if possible). You can practice with skeet loads and blanks. Whack the barrels to whatever legal length you prefer, and it's ready to go. Something about a heavy load of #4 buckshot in a no-choke that really knocks them on their a$$. | |||
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Another choice would be a mossberg clip fed shotgun, if you want to have an empty gun that can be loaded right away. You can buy old ones or get a new model 597 in the "turkey gun" configuration. | |||
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You don't want to listen to a 223 being fired in your living room. Sure, you may hit the bad guy. You and your family might also have to learn sign language. Why don't you take your family to IPSC or IDPA matches? I don't want to say this is a substitute for defensive handgun training, but you will get proficient at handling a revolver or autopistol under stress. H. C. | |||
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From the choices you have listed get the 223. Use Federal 55grain Ballistic Tip, or Winchester 50grain Ballistic Silver Tip. [Federal used to make a 40grain 223 but I have not seen any in a long time. The above 223 rounds are less of an overpenetration threat than most handgun rounds. Almost anything is dangerous through one wall. The handgun rounds can penetrate several walls. If you hit the intended threat in the chest the 223 is still the safest threat against over penetration. Many, many SWAT team have gone to the 223 as an entry weapon for this and other reasons. Just be aware of one thing you are responsible for all rounds you fire. If you can find some 20 round magazines for the 223, they fit in your pocket better that the 30 rounders. The 223 is a very easy rifle to shoot, just be sure everybody has ear protection on when practicing. One thing you could do is keep the rifle, chamber empty, full mag inserted in an electronic safe that is easy to open in the dark. Give the combination to all the family members that you have trained. Be sure to have a light attached to the weapon so you can identify who you are about to shoot. Sure-Fire is a good brand, the batteries are lithium and will last [unused] for 5 years or so. [ 07-30-2003, 03:30: Message edited by: N E 450 No2 ] | |||
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The .223 is not a sound choice for home defense, for many reasons. The UZI is more complicated than any handgun, if use by women and children is a concern. The .45 ACP carbine is a good choice, but get a Marlin. It is uncomplicated, with an easy to use safety and bolt. The stock is already in a useable position, and it looks better in court. | |||
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I'd also opt for a break open 20 or 12 guage shotgun. Or one of the carbines in a pistol caliber. The absolutely LAST thing I would want for self defense in a populated area would be an AR...you will decimate your house, put a bullet into your car and your neighbors dog, if you are lucky. Plus, when the cops see an Uzi or AR used to defend yourself, they are probably going to think you are some nutcase...a break open shotgun says "kindly gentleman that engages in the finer shootign sports." ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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How about a Stoger Coach gun. Short, simple and very intimidating to look at. A 12 would be my pick but a 20 might be a better choice if a young person would be using it.[ 07-30-2003, 07:39: Message edited by: Nebraska ] | |||
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quote:Not a consideration when choosing a firearm to stake one's life on. | |||
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Here's one choice:  | |||
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Here's another:  | |||
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Third choice:  | |||
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This will probably be laughed at but what is wrong with a 10/22 with a couple 25 rd (should be able to find them) mags loaded with CCI Stingers? Tell the family to start at the belly button and work their way up. Sean | |||
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If you really want to stop someone in their tracks especially at night the sound of a shotgun being racked normally does it . | |||
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Remington 870 pump shotgun, pistol grip, short barrel, 12 gauge.....Probably the best home defense weapon there is. Frank D | |||
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Shotguns and high-poweer rifles shot within the confines of four walls are deafening! You'll be deaf for a week. Hearing protedtion may not be an option when something happens as you have a couple of nano-seconds to react. The pistol round carbines mentioned in above post are 9mm carbines. Go with the 45 with jhp rounds. ![[Cool]](images/icons/cool.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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Frank D has it right. Load it with high brass number 4 shot. Buck shot will penetrate dry wall and kill or injure an un-intended target. | |||
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All good suggestions. I had thought about the 10/22, but mine has a scope on it (no sights), so not a practical option. Also, the suggestions about keeping it locked up and loaded won't work, as I need to be able to have the weapon in whatever room we are in at the time. I don't want to have to run to another room, remove it from the safe, then run back to where the bad guy might be. I did forget to mention that I will have a magazine in one pocket, but a flashlight in the other. Target ID is top priority, I agree. Just a few days ago, the police got a tip and descended on the house (very fast response time - it made me feel better). These officers were using AR15M4s as entry weapons, which sparked a conversation. I talked to them about what a person might do if he needed to stop an intruder, so I have an idea of what their mindset is on the whole thing. I did consider a dog, but that is just a series of problems I don't want to deal with. You can't just put the dog in the closet and forget about it when they arrest this guy. Also, there is no way I would get my wife to shoot a 12 ga with a pistol grip on it. It's just too much for her. I think a carbine in 45ACP will be the right choice. It's too bad that the Ruger is only available in 40 and 9mm. I've handled the PC9, and liked it a lot. The hi-point carbine is priced right, but looks so odd and again, is only in 9mm. What other options are there in 45ACP carbines? This is one gun area I am totally not familiar with. I've never thought I had a need for one in the past, I guess. thanks again, maxman | |||
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Since you live in Minnesota, you could probably order an H&K variant of their UMP in 45 ACP. | |||
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In my opinion, you would be better off spending more thought and money on hardening your home (especially the perimeter) and family (do you have a response plan?), and less on weaponry. Alarm systems? Layered defense strategy? Escape plan? Cel phone always charged an in your bedroom at night behind a locked solid core door? Have you notified the local police of the death threat? And so on. And you're probably more vulnerable away from home where they can reasonably expect that you're less likely to be armed, so if the death threat is imminent, have you talked to your local police about an emergency carry permit? After all that, we can then think about possible weaponry. Your primary weapon is still the cel phone with everyone barricaded in a safe room behind a solid locked door. As for firearms choices, you also have to think in terms of layering. It's my opinion that a handgun with lightweight expanding bullets and a gun-mounted light is the best primary home defense weapon, primarily because it can be used one-handed, leaving the other free to operate doors, use a phone, give silent hand signals, comfort a scared child, etc. It's more portable and maneuverable than a long gun, and more easily stored in a quick-access security device. If you arm your spouse and/or children, they should be barricaded and can therefore more easily handle long arms. Inside the home without ear protection (unless you want to buy everyone a set of electronic ear muffs) muzzle blast and report are a major consideration, and in the dark or semi-dark, muzzle flash is also a serious concern. You say that simplicity and ease of use by all ages is a major consideration for you. Believe me, a magazine-fed semiauto carbine is not the way to go if that's the case unless the operator is trained. You would be better off with a 20-gauge coach gun with external hammers, loaded with bird shot in the right barrel and buckshot in the second. Alternatively, consider the Browning BLR in .44 Mag but loaded with .44 Special. It has a detachable magazine and is easy to operate. The .44 Special will have very modest recoil in the carbine and the long barrel will eliminate virtually all of the muzzle flash. Neither option offers good opportunities for gun-mounted lights (though there are ways to do it) so one tactic is for a child to handle the flashlight and your spouse the gun. Food for thought. | |||
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Hate to flog a dead horse, but I've never understood the "shotgun as home defense weapon, either." At normal, home defense ranges, the projectile will hit the wall, the TV, and possibly the intruder, as a solid wad. No different whatsoever than a slug or other projectile. The psychological advantage of being able to cycle the action is the only advantage I can think of that would make the shotgun a good choice. There is nothing wrong with the .40 S&W for home defense. It is cheap, and so are the weapons that are designed to fire it, especially now that police surplus is hitting the market. There is a good court defense for wrongful death. "I selected that firearm because the police chose it, and I trust their judgement in matters of self defense." I am a big fan of autos for home defense, as the very young have difficulty arming the piece, and it is "safed" as soon as you remove the mag and clear it. Those of you gun-lock/safe fans, have you ever tried to operate either under stress? IMHO, they both serve to preserve your gun in "mint" condition for the intruder to take after he's successfully disposed of you and your family. I have yet to understand this "lock-a-gun" mania, having been raised in a house with a gun cabinet handy. I especially don't understand the households whose children can't be kept from playing with the gun in the dresser drawer. By the time I could play with Dad's gun, I had my own, so why should I give a rip about "Dad's" gun. I liked mine better, anyway. | |||
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Before making a decision you might want to check out ammo-oracle. I also thought that a 5.56 rifle would make a poor choice for home defense. However after reading all the info at ammo-oracle I have had to reconsider. Personaly I would leen towards pump action shotgun - but an ar-15 type rifle might not be such a poor choice after all. | |||
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Post didn't go first time so try again. A Saiga 20ga shotgun. Light, reliable, magazine fed, and a nice "schnik snick" sound when chambering round. These can usually be found pretty reasonably at guns shows. And they're fun to take to a range. Just my $.02 worth. | |||
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If you don't want a piece around with ammo in it, then I'd go with the 10/22. Or a mark 2 ruger pistol. Simple, reliable. A kid can learn to handle one in short order. FYI, more folks are killed each year with a .22 than all the other calibres combined. My first choice however would be a pump shotgun, pistol grip stock, barrel cut to federal minimums. Ammo in the tube, the chamber empty but the piece cocked. That makes cycling the action to bring the first round into battery so much easier. | |||
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You don't a loaded gun in your house,but you want your wife and kid to have access to the gun incase they need to use it. Fuzz | ||
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quote:If a pump shotgun is cocked, then the action is locked, requiring the operator to press the slide release before chambering a round. If ease of chambering is your intent, then mag tube loaded one short of max (to avoid spring set), empty chamber, and hammer down leaves the slide unlocked for immediate racking to load the chamber. | |||
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I think Marlin makes a carbine size 410 shotgun thats a pump. Might be easier for the family to handle and a whole lot less recoil. | |||
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quote:I say again: Heckler & Kock USC in 45 ACP. | |||
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Slingster, u r rite. With folks suggesting all these exotic weapons (oh, how we love to spend other folks money), Are we interested in stopping an intruder or killing a neighbor three doors down???? And I hate to say it but what happens if you have to use the piece and a politically ambicious DA gets hold of your "assault weapon"? Wouldn't the ambulance chasers have a field day with that. Since the days of no double jepordy are past, after you have bankrupted yourself staying out of jail on the criminal charges, the next of kin of the perp get a go at you in civil court. | |||
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Eric (Slingster) is correct, I believe, in suggesting that the weapon is only part of the defense, and that planning, training, mindset, and hardening the home all come first. I also agree that a pistol with light attachement may be the best solution for all the reasons previously cited. I would consider the GI M1 Carbine as a long arm. Reasonable priced. Easy for small statured people to operate. Easy manual of arms. It's handy and light. Good sights. Reliable. Carrying a 15 round magazine in a pocket is very comfortable. Use JSP or JHP ammo and you essentially have a .357 mag carbine. Jim Cirillo used one to great effect for several years on the NYC Stakeout Team. | |||
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quote:Hell, my choice is a model 12 pump. It is a crowd killin SOB. You don't have to be good, just close. Keep it unloaded with shells up high, beyond little hands. If I get to the shells in time it is easy to keep feeding the magazine between shots. If I don't make it to the ammo in time it makes a great club. [ 07-30-2003, 21:56: Message edited by: Phantom Duck ] | |||
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quote:Hell, my choice is a model 12 pump. It is a crowd killin SOB. Keep it unloaded with shells up high, beyond little hands. If I get to the shels in time it is easy to keep feeding the magazine between shots. If I don't make it to the ammo in time it makes a great club. | |||
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ger - I've got 20 inch 12 ga. Silverado I use for CAS, but it is our family go-to home defense weapon of choice. From 0-30 yards it's show stopper. | |||
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Well lets see, I've got an 870 12 gauge with 7 shot extension and original stock and 18" barrel next to the bed. On my nightstand I normally have my S&W 29 Classic with 240 grain hydroshocks. My girlfriends side of the bed has either my Springfield V10 with hydroshocks, or her Ladysmith with Nyclads. One door down, you enter my reloading room. This where you don't want to find me if you're an intruder. I firmly believe in NOT locking up your guns. Teach your children to respect them, not fear them. The more you hide the guns from them, the more curiosity that you produce. I've grown up with loaded firearms in my house, and at any given time, there was at least a half-a-dozen that I could get my hands on if needed. For an all-around stopper, the 12 gauge cannot be beat, period!! I would highly reccomend that you do not use the pistol grip style due to it's heavy recoil and abuse to your wrist. Your wife and kids need to be able to shoot this gun and practice on a regular basis. I'll agree with other members here regarding the sound of a round being chambered in a 12 guage, it doesn't need an interpreter, it's speaks everybody's language. The guy would have to be packing his balls in a wheelbarrow to continue to advance into your house after hearing that sound. You AR choice is not all together bad, but it's a little to much crap to be dealing with in the heat of the moment. Despite the belief of some posters here, the .223 will fragment much better than a pistol round, or larger caliber rifle round. Hell, that's why we shoot varmints with the damn things. 50 grain Siera Blitz, or Nosler balistic tips will rip an intruder from stim to stern without risk of shooting through a wall or down the street. The first solid object they hit would cause immediate fragmentation. The only thing that I could think of that would be worse than choosing an uzi, would be choosing an AK-47. | |||
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Two choices: If you're (and your wife/family) going to practice with it, get a semi-auto pistol. Either a Glock 9mm/.40/.45 or one of the double-action types. If you're (practicularly your wife/family) only going to shoot it occasionally, get a S&W .357. I say this because .357's don't kick too much (a consideration for women), are simple to use, and provide enough stopping power to be feasable. | |||
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I'll vote for the shotgun, no buckshot though. You'll want something that will loose most of it's energy going through a wall to limit any colateral damage. Even no. 8 shot from a full choke would be a serious load. If your kids aren't big enough for a 12 ga, consider a 20ga, if not that then a 410, I'd lean more towards the 20 for all members of the family though. Plus practice ammo is cheap for 12 and 20ga. I have a Stainless Mossberg 12ga. 500 20" bbl that would be great with 8 rounds in the tube. I personally keep a small semi auto pistol with the mag loaded and chamber empty kept up high. I have a 4yo and would hate for him to be a statistic. We have a deal that when ever he wants to look at the guns, all he has to do is ask and we'll open the safe and go through all the safety rules, proper handleing until he is done looking. since I was 12 I had my own guns in my own bedroom closet. If it comes to a standoff, that's when I'll pull out the Ak and the 75 round drums. You can keep them fully loaded and only have to wind the spring before use. If all else fails, I have a battle axe and swords in the living room. | |||
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