One more thing I wanted to say was maybe get some scrap sheet rock and see how much will penetrate at what range. Maybe simulate a wall, one layer a space then another layer. You could always keep a box of slugs in your safe room if you have to retreat to there. I like the idea of a cheap gun in every closet. I have an H&R 20ga, that I took a pipe cutter to and whacked the barrel off to 18.5". It's light, handy and only cost $35. It's taken a pile of grouse also. Maybe put one of those elastic shell carriers on the butt stock?

I have to agree with some about the exotic wierd weapons, are we trying to impress the intruder?? the ar and the 223 isn't to me a choice for home defense. I will have to agree with most in saying a shotgun would be the best way to go they are usually cheaper for one and it would be hard to miss the bad guy, and wouldn't it be better for everyone if you didn't have to acutally kill the fool this is where raking the slid comes in. if you are in texas and people come on your property at night with intent to steal or hurt someone you can legally shoot them dead on the spot and it is legal, too bad it isn't that way everywhere. If the shot gun will not work, I don't think anyone has suggested a good old fashion revolver. simple and easy hard to mess up there

Lots of good advice has already been thrown out, especially the info on target hardening to start with. I currently use the Colt M4 with a Surefire light mount for entries and it is my weapon of choice. However I also use electronic muffs under my helmet whenever it is deployed. Without ear protection you will suffer some damage when firing indoors and your ability to use verbal communications with your team/family will be lost. The .223 is not a 458 Win Mag, load it with soft points and it will penetrate less than most conventional pistol rounds. My solution is two magazines clipped together. One mag of 62gr SS109 in the rifle for basic patrol and a second magazine of Hornady 60 TAP (Same as Hornady Vmax bullets but double the price to sell to LE) is right next to in in the event I need to deploy in a high density pedestrian environment (active shooter at a school or mall).
For you intended use I think the Ruger carbine in .40 cal would be tough to beat. It will be easy on the ears and shoulders of a minimally trained operator. Stick with the 180 loads or the Speer gold dot, the extra velocity from the 16" barrel will cause most of the lighter bullets to fragment or shed their jackets. Good luck

Again, thanks for the tips. We've already hardened the home, and been in contact with the police quite a lot. In fact, we spent the other day at the county attorney's office and there is now a felony warrant out for this guy because of his threats. But...they haven't been able to find him yet, which brings us to now.

I'm not sure that the 'rack the slide' trick will work here. This guy is a known meth addict, so I can't count on him being rational (or even in our same reality) if he shows up. Plus a pistol caliber carbine would be easier and quicker to make ready, as we've covered already.

I hadn't thought of the M1 carbine. With the proper bullets, this might be a good tool as well. I am going to evaluate both the M1 and Ruger 40S&W carbines this weekend (thanks Todd C). maxman

Cummins Cowboy, I fail to see what's exotic about an HK USC or a Beretta CX4. Get over their looks. They still spit bullets out the front, just like an M1 carbine. Unlike the M1, the HK and the Beretta have built in provisions for lights, optical sights, even night vision sights. Why the hell not go into combat using the same advantages that our troops and cops have? Only a fool would not.

The only thing the intruder would see about them is the muzzle flash, just before he dies.

[ 08-01-2003, 18:10: Message edited by: Orion 1 ]

Shotgun with bird shot. An ounce of #8 is like a giant glazer. At the 20 feet or less ranges we are talking about, any reasonable hit is fatal. Rifles can kill your neighbors or family unintentionally. Forget them. The shot disperses after hitting dry wall making further penetration a non issue. Listen up, you are hearing from a fornsic scientist/ ballistics guy. Read Martin Fackler's studies on this stuff.

If you use a somethat sporting looking shotgun you are less likely to be villified and thrown in the slammer. Same goes for dove and quail loads. Our little secret is that they are the best medicine for the job.

[ 08-01-2003, 19:09: Message edited by: scot ]

Excellent advice, Scot!

I've seen what a shotgun with a trap load does to a 180 lb whitetail at "living room range". Talk about a stopper! The lack of wall penetration is a decided advantage too. There is no need for buckshot (and no, at these ranges it does not matter if the bad guy is wearing leather!).

quote:

---

Originally posted by scot:
Shotgun with bird shot. An ounce of #8 is like a giant glazer. At the 20 feet or less ranges we are talking about, any reasonable hit is fatal. Rifles can kill your neighbors or family unintentionally. Forget them. The shot disperses after hitting dry wall making further penetration a non issue. Listen up, you are hearing from a fornsic scientist/ ballistics guy. Read Martin Fackler's studies on this stuff.

If you use a somethat sporting looking shotgun you are less likely to be villified and thrown in the slammer. Same goes for dove and quail loads. Our little secret is that they are the best medicine for the job.

---

I would consider a Winchester M94, lever action Trapper in .45 Colt. Advantages: Light, easy handling. Pointablility. Mechanically simple to operate yet very safe design. .45 Colt can be loaded up or down to whatever power level suits your circumstances... from lightest of the light to Grizzly killer. And there are lots of factory loaded options.
-- Doc

Well

I would say a Benelli semi auto shot gun would be just about perfect for HD. If you would like to give the poor bastard a warm up and I can recommend Israeli riot ammo the two first rounds in the shotgun with these. For the rest of the magazine I would go for US 5 or 6 shoots about 36 gram load. Semis are not likely to jam because of a untrained user like some pump actions will

If you thinking about an 5.56 and don't want to swiss cheese the neigbours, their dog, your car and the entire house. Contact some surplus store and ask for IMI riot ammo it's very effective on close range and will kill if you shoot at rib cage or head. On longer ranges it will give a good whack and maybe a bit more

I got a few boxes, the bullet it magnetic soo I guess it's not all rubber

/ JOHAN

All of you are dead wrong, with the emphasis on the word dead. Having a gun in your house is a 100% guarantee that you will either get drunk and shoot your wife or get angry and shoot your kids. Guns have no purpose other than to kill people. Read your Constitution; you will find it crystal clearly written therein that only the military is have guns. You wacko gun nut slobs are all fools; we highly-intelligent people are here to help you. Let us show you the way to non-violence; let us all live in peace and harmony. Just having gun around makes people violent; just having a gun around means you will commit a crime with it. We think it is best that you turn in all your guns before you kill yourself or someone else. This public service message brought to you by the good folks at Handgun Control, Inc. who just want to help you live your life the way we see fit. Sarah "Bugeyes" Bady, ChairMAN.

I'd have to say I'd go with the shotgun. I'd buy a 12 ga coach gun double barrel and keep it loaded with whatever you feel safe with, birdshot or buckshot. A pump with the mag loaded would be another great idea. I can tell you that anyone hearing that thing rack that is not on drugs would get the destinct feeling they are not welcome. If someone on drugs does hear it, it's not going to make a whole lot of difference, because you'll probably end up having to shoot them no matter how much you try to avoid it. I'd hate like hell to kill anyone, under any circumstances, but if they break in my house and threaten me, they better have their heath insurance paid up, and probably a pre need burial plan.

My best friend's son is a Doctor in the emergency room at a Hospital in Indianapolis Ind. I ask him his opinion because he has seen the damage all of the above do first hand. He say's without a doubt the 12 gauge with # 4s or larger is the most devastating. He said last guy that come in with a shotgun wound had a lower jaw bone and nothing above.

rootbeer

don't post such hippy propaganda here, I feel like, I want to break something or throw up. I hate this big brother system. Love peace and harmony sucks and the flower power area are looong gone

/ JOHAN

I had a family memember tell me that I would be killed by my own gun if I kept one in the house. I told him that they would have to beat me to death with it because it would be hot and empty.

JOHAN,
I am not a hippy; I am hard right, pro-gun and love my flag and my country. I have enormous respect for the soldiers who defend my freedoms. I revere my Constitution and want it obeyed by the slime-crawlers in Washington DC. I say "one Nation under God" when I recite the Pledge. I wrote that just to get some reaction. My guess is that people read it, were all set to fire off a flamethrower at me, then saw it was satire. Sad thing is, there are actually people who believe what I wrote.
Longbob, Ditto me.

[ 08-03-2003, 00:51: Message edited by: rootbeer ]

The three most terrifying sounds to hear in the dark....in order of their terror:

1. A pump shotgun racking a round into the chamber.
2. An African lion roar.
3. A Western Diamonback rattling.

If you can produce either sound, probably the only thing you ever see of an intruder is the whole in a window where he dove through.

But in case it doesn't work, pull the trigger.

Pecos,

There is a fourth.

"Are you in yet?"

I have run enough search warrants to know a shotgun or longgun is for hunting..try sticking the pump shotgun around a door frame sometime, good way to get shot as you have to expose too much body....a pistol is my choice either a colt 1911 or a Browning Hi-Power, and it works better up close also...

For the spouse and older kids, good S&W chief Special 38 Special is what we have around here....The other factor is you have to train them to use a pistol, therefore being trained they won't shoot you or themselves....

I get the impression that many just hand mama a shotgun and tell her you can't miss with it,so its the berries...Well that BS, the pattern of a sawed off shotgun, even with 12 inch barrels, in a house is going to be about the size of a golf ball, go try it....Too many are under the misguided impression a shotgun pattern from a sawed off is several feet at 10 yards, lays a spray of death and distruction thourhout the room, an it won't, and if the distance gets too great it has little stopping effect...

.223 for CQB. A good read if you are considering a .223 for a house-gun. 40gr ballistic tips at 36-3800fps would be my ammo of choice for such use.

MM

http://www.olyarms.com/223cqb.html

Here's one of mine:

[url= http://"http://www.hunt101.com/?p=34060&c=500&z=1"] [/url]

rootbeer
No hard feelings I have never said you were a hippy either. If you were, you would be the only gun hoo hippy

I tend to disslike this global peace, love and understanding, anti-gun thing more and more...

/ JOHAN

Greetings everyone. I have been lurking at this site for a long time. I joined specifically to respond to this thread. There has been some good advice given (especially by Slingster), but I think there are some other issues that need to be addressed.

First, I think that the idea of keeping a long gun in the home, unloaded and unsecured, needs to be reconsidered. Gun Safety Rule Number 1 is "ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED." I think having an unloaded and unsecured gun around the house will tend to foster complacency regarding safety: "Don’t worry, it isn’t loaded." Sooner or later, I guarantee you that a round will wind up in the chamber of the supposedly "unloaded" gun. This may result in a loud and unpleasant surprise. Also, I think carrying a long gun with you from room to room will not work out very well. Aside from the fact that guests may find it a little odd, Murphy’s Law dictates that when you really need the gun, it will have been forgotten in another room on the opposite end of the house.

IMO, if you need to have a weapon with you at all times, a loaded handgun in a secure holster is the only way to go.

Second, I think the idea of handing off a weapon to an untrained family member is a bad idea. Basic training in safety, gun handling, and marksmanship is MANDATORY. I don’t mean that everyone who needs a gun for self defense has to take a five day class at Gunsite or Thunder Ranch, but some basic instruction in how to safely load, handle, and fire the weapon at defensive range is required. If the person hasn’t been taught basic weapon handling and marksmanship, it is unfair and unrealistic to expect them to handle a weapon safely and competently in a life-or-death situation.

Third, I think the idea that a semi-auto carbine or shotgun is going to be easier to operate than a semi-auto pistol or revolver is simply not true. Carbines are at least as complicated to operate as pistols, and, in my opinion at least, are not nearly as intuitive in operation and placement of safeties, bolt handles, etc. With the exception of the AR15 family, I have yet to see a semi-auto rifle that has ergonomics as good as even an average semi-automatic pistol (in terms of control placement and ease of use). The same is true of a pump shotgun--the slide release and safeties are not nearly as well placed and intuitive as the controls of a typical semi-auto pistol.

If simplicity of operation is the primary concern, the double-action revolver is the weapon of choice. Think about how easily you can explain the operation of a revolver to a total beginner: "Open cylinder, put bullets in holes, close cylinder, you’re ready to fire."

Sure, a long gun is easier to hit with than a handgun, but how much accuracy do you need inside your house? We’re not talking about shooting bullseyes at 50 yards here. Get out the tape measure and determine the distance for the longest shot you could possibly have to make (longest unobstructed line of sight in your house). I bet it is less than thirty feet, and the longest shot you would realistically take is probably a lot shorter (i.e., from behind bed to bedroom window, from behind couch to door, etc.). Even a beginner will usually not have problems getting good hits on a man-size target with a handgun inside ten yards.

Finally, there were some comments regarding the "intimidation factor" of racking a pump action shotgun. I really wish people would stop repeating this baloney because it is totally inconsistent with a proper combat mindset. If you pull a gun on someone, you had better be 100% God damn well mentally prepared to shoot and kill them with it–-because if you are not, chances are pretty good that you won’t live to consider the matter some other time at your leisure. DON’T EVER expect the bad guy to turn tail at the sight (or sound) of a gun, whether it is a .22 pocket pistol or a 12 gauge Magnum. A gun is not a talisman that wards off evil. A gun is a tool, and it is your resolve to use it if necessary that will protect you, not the sight or sound of the tool itself.

I hope this has been helpful.

Best,

Alfadog

maxman,

Let's focus on prevention instead of guns for a moment. I suggest that you get a copy of Maasad Ayoobs book "The Truth About Self Protection" right now and read it carefully.

What you don't want to happen is to have shot someone! It's almost certain that you will be sued for this and one little slip up by you or your family on what you say may implicate you.

As to the prevention I would reconsider the dog. A barking dog will provide a high level of detection and may ward off an intrusion. There are so many things to do with a home that include lighting, fences, camera's,

As to the weapons I think there is way too much emphasis on them and too little on avoiding this situation. But I can understand the concern once a threat is made.

I have not reread every word here and more info comes out with every post but if it were me I would hire an attorney right now and do as directed. There are many other things to do and making friends with law inforcement as you seem to be doing is another good one. Consider hiring a firm to protect you is a thought.

well, I might as well throw in my opine on this.

First lets take a look a the distances you will be egaging the targets in our house.
I'd be willing to say that the longest shot any of us would have would be less than 45 feet. Most likely distances would be a third of that or less.

Secondly what kind of house do we live in? Brick and mortar, stucco, wood framed? Interior walls?
Most likely sheet rock, a few wood walls in older houses, an occational stone or brick interior wall?

Unless you just want to shoot thru every wall in your house and the neighbor's walls you need to A) make sure you hit what you shoot and B) know what's behind what you shoot.

My personal home protection is a 20 ga. winchester youth pump I gave my kids years ago.
It is loaded with Winchester No.9 bird shot.

If you do the math it is easy to see that the shotgun has advantage over the pistol in velocity and projectile mass/weight. The plus side is that the No. 9 will loose energy a whole lot quicker upon striking a wall.

Once again just my opine.