A thread in a recent post here has got me on my soapbox. I see this shit all of the time. People get suckered into buying or trading for someone elses problem or screw-up. We are constantly repairing or attempting to repair guns like this. The most common are rifles that won't group and shotguns that won't cycle. It really torques me off that someone is so unethical as to sell or trade, without disclosure, a known broken gun or one that has a dangerous flaw. What the hell is wrong with people?

Happens a lot, sometimes I buy knowing. Bought a 458 win mag on a real nice vz24 action decent stock, barrel band, banded front, decent express sight. kinda inletted, action and barrel is in it, so it's a matter of adding back to finish it rather than take away. One badly done but repairable chip where they forced back tang in and it pulled splinter coming back out. Bought it as "barreled and stocked, needs work to make feed. Okay, that at least is interesting.

Took it into shop last night, grabbed some feeding dummies, and started. Actually, it does feed. Can be improved, and needs follower reshaped slightly. But, ejects real weak. Start looking, and whoever did the bolt face conversion milled it back a bit, or ground on the claw until it has about .030 clearance from gripping the rim and holding against bolt face. Now, I need to do some parts checking against known parts to decide which part has been modified, and how to fix. Will either have to replace the bolt, or weld up and reshape claw. At least I bought it knowing it had problems, and paid appropriately. Bought it for barrel and sights value, so it's okay. Client gun they paid value for, I'd tell them to take it back.

Quite a few years ago a friend brought his dau over with a pistol and wanted me to hold it a month or so.

I got a bad feeling when I asked the girl if it was stolen. Looked at her Dad before replying and let him respond.
I had it in hand at the time so wrote the serial# down. After they left I called the law to have it checked. Sure as hell it was taken in a recent burglary. I told the cop it had been offered to me but, didn't know the guy or how to contact him.

I contacted the guy and chewed his ass over it. Thinking it over later I wished I'd just sent the LEO to make a visit. I would now with no hesitation.

Anytime I come up with one that's not working right. IF it's something that can be fixed I might get it and fix it. Or pass it off to someone with what I know about it. But, never without such info.

Longtime ago I got suckered into a fine looking Jennings 9 without knowing a thing about them.

Second session it fired and locked up. Three of us at the range couldn't get it apart. I told a young guy about it and he didn't care if it worked or not and he'd reimburse the $100 I had in it. Never heard back, nor saw him again.

Far as I can recall that's the only "bad gun" I've ever passed on.

George

as a vendor at local gun shows, i see my share of non/semi-functional firearms... they make the rounds... most common today are the home-made ar-15 variants.... the guys walking around carrying them, rattle off a grocery list of the "components" used in their build.... i won't touch them.... i buy guns from several dealers and probably half have issues... theres a local blacksmith/gunsmith that can usually fix them... when i buy parts guns or questionable guns, i always try them out... learned that the hard way on a H&R 20 ga single.... guy comes by my tables with it, i make a deal... put it under the table to take home... a buddy is helping me at the show and wants it.... i pass it along after the show for what ive got in it.... he gives it to his kid, they try to shoot it and find out the transferbar system has issues.... gave him his $$ back... he saw me make the trade, heard from the seller how good it was.... still made me feel bad... Trading used guns is a tough business, you can get beat really quick... ive bought several that still need work... an 03a3 thats gorgeous, in .458x2,,, it wont feed.... rails have been opened too much.... and a .17 fireball on a carbine legnth M70 win... it needs mag box help....

A guy brought in a beautiful little Sako recently. The heavyweight barrel was stamped .222 Rem. His complaint was that it snapped and would not extract. The chamber swallowed a .222 case. Turns out someone had re-chambered it to .222 Rem Mag and had not re-stamped the barrel. He bought it at a gun show from an individual who was long gone. The real bad part was that the rifle was unusable as a repeater since the mag round wouldn't fit in the magazine. I guess a chamber insert could be fab'd, but that's about his only recourse rather than re-barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by jimatcat:
as a vendor at local gun shows, i see my share of non/semi-functional firearms... they make the rounds... most common today are the home-made ar-15 variants.... the guys walking around carrying them, rattle off a grocery list of the "components" used in their build.... i won't touch them.... i buy guns from several dealers and probably half have issues... theres a local blacksmith/gunsmith that can usually fix them... when i buy parts guns or questionable guns, i always try them out... learned that the hard way on a H&R 20 ga single.... guy comes by my tables with it, i make a deal... put it under the table to take home... a buddy is helping me at the show and wants it.... i pass it along after the show for what ive got in it.... he gives it to his kid, they try to shoot it and find out the transferbar system has issues.... gave him his $$ back... he saw me make the trade, heard from the seller how good it was.... still made me feel bad... Trading used guns is a tough business, you can get beat really quick... ive bought several that still need work... an 03a3 thats gorgeous, in .458x2,,, it wont feed.... rails have been opened too much.... and a .17 fireball on a carbine legnth M70 win... it needs mag box help....

I have bought some stinkers. Returned them to the sellers, or if I couldn't, even sold a couple of them to Numrich as parts guns. Lost money on those, but sleep better.

IMHO it is very un ethical to sell a firearm
with problems without telling the buyer about them.

I was at a gun shop one day father and son owners.

As I was looking over the inventory.

They were discussing a luger pistol. that wasn't working properly.

The jus of the conversation was just take to the next gun show. It sure sounded like they were not going to tell the buyer it wasn't working properly.

Last time I darken their door.

By brother sold a dealer at a gun show a Charles daily 1911. He told the buyer all the problems . He had with it.
A couple very knowledgeable 1911 armorers looked at.

They couldn't figure it out.

He sold it as non working with a price to match.

It had the box and all the paper work.

I walked by the dealers table he had the price marked up more then double and was in the process of telling a customer.

That it worked just fine and it was almost new in the box.

Made a mental note never to deal with him.

I get more guys who shouldn't own a firearm because they are too inept to learn how to operate them. Or load ammo, or know correct shooting techniques. It is far less the gun's fault. Mechanical things can be corrected; lack of mental capacity, is harder.

My latest as to this thought is: on another site in buy, sell, trade I bought a 1909 that was beautiful, bolt handle well done, with a .458 barrel (Shaw) and a new Clymer reamer, Thinking wrongly that the guy was me, I didn't ask THE question and guess what? Automatic assumptions bit me again. On the other hand, more recently here in Alaska, I bought a gorgeous 243 1939 action with two complete set triggers, a 1909 guard, and a stunning fancy guard for the set triggers for 3 bills. Caveat emptor as they say. Same as it ever was, same as it ever was.

Took apart the extractor on the .458 tonight, here's the results: In grinding the claw, they ground the circular rail or guide that rides in the circumferential groove in the bolt thinner. This allows the extractor to move forward and aft, and be too loose. It will have to be replaced, too hard to weld it up and redo. They also opened up the bolt about .010 too much, and ground it so it doesn't have the little nib at the bottom of the bolt rim, that keeps the case from just falling out the bottom. I can probably hit that fast with a tiny weld without affecting the bolt temper, just need a tiny dot at the bottom right of the bolt as shown in the pictures.
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Looks like it’s had some welding done has it?
Porosity or maybe just dirt.

Doesn't look welded, just really poor grinding and cleanup. Also tapered the claw back, instead of keeping it flat.

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From what I read, this one wasn't misrepresented as perfect, but disclosed that it might have issues.

Yes, there was about 25% disclosure. The sell was that he started it, got the barrel in and bolt face modified, and then didn't know how to mod the box and follower and rails to make it feed. What he didn't disclose is that he had modded the bolt and extractor past the usable point, where they had to be repaired. Not unexpected, I paid a price that would account for stuff like this, anticipating that.

The other one I see a lot on antique guns is "decent bore, should clean up and be a good shooter".

What they mean is rusted and pitted to hell, they're afraid to clean the black crud and rust out of the barrel, because then you will be able to see that the barrel is absolutely trash. If it really looked like a hope of coming out good, they'd be cleaning and polishing the hell out of the barrel, scrubbing it with a stainless steel brush and steel wool on a lap so they could advertise it as clean and shiny.

I knew a guy who was looking at a custom rifle at a gun show and was getting ready to pull out his wallet when he noticed that the rifle didnt have a chamber,just the bore. He mentioned it to the vendor and he told him that he could take it to any gunsmith and they could finish the job for him and it wouldnt be very expensive. He asked him if he would take less for it and the seller gave him a dirty look and placed the gun back on his table. He figured the seller would remove it from the table or mark it down but he walked by twice more and it still had the same price tag on it. If I remember correctly it was a Ruger M77 in 280 REM caliber.

quote:

I remember correctly it was a Ruger M77 in 280 REM caliber.

The bore might have been .284 but it was not a 280 yet.

he said the barrel was stamped 280 REM, i figure at one point someone removed the barrel and shortened it, rethreaded it, but never got around to rechambering it. Who knows, hopefully if the guy sold it the buyer realized that or he had the courtesy to tell him

I have picked up several muzzleloaders that had barrels that were very poor condition. I was buying them for parts and it didn't matter.

The worst gun I bought used was a Remington 11-87 sporting clays 12 ga. I traded a double barrel American arms shotgun for the Remington.
The guy wanted 500, He said he would trade but I had to give 200. I walked off. He came and found me. We talked again and he said how do I know yours works? I said I'm assuming yours doesn't work, that's why I won't give you anything extra.

I told him I would trade straight across. And I was assuming his didn't work. I said you should assume mine doesn't work either.

The Remington didn't work. I had to find a extractor, spring, everything. I had no luck so I had to buy another bolt. That bolt was used but it did work. There was a spring missing that reduces the gas coming back to operate the action. I am thinking someone took it off because light loads were not functioning.
I spent less than 200 to get it running.
The double barrel that I told him to assume it didn't work was a 3-1/2" gun. Every time I shot it with big shells it would fire both shots but not at the same time there was a split of about a quarter to a half a second. It never did it with field loads. I always thought since it was a single trigger gun that I pulled the trigger and the recoil made me fire the second one.
Either way I assume that they don't work and go from there.

SSDave
Looks like both sides of the bolt face were hand filed away too much. Can you fill the overcut areas with weld and remachine the bolt face and heat treat? Might be faster than a re-bolt which means a new bolt handle and a re-face anyway. Then check the extractor for proper fit.
Hopefully, more pros will hop on here with advice.

Bobster,

Lots of shameless punks out there. There are also the "just bend it and it will go" ones. Another is "you didn't cycle this bolt action properly". Do it like you mean it!

It's not just guns, car repair shops lie like hell about most anything.
Ditto on car sellers especially private sellers. I just bought a car online and I'm up to 23 items that need attention. The owner only mentioned 4 items. Good thing I bid low by $2,000 just in case.

Hope you get it where it needs to be soon.


QUOTE]Originally posted by ssdave:
Doesn't look welded, just really poor grinding and cleanup. Also tapered the claw back, instead of keeping it flat.

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Just plain not good.

Steve.......

Custombolt, I'll sequentially work on it, and see what it takes. It feeds okay now, and even almost holds the cartridge, if you hold the extractor back with your fingers. So, I'll get and modify for magnum a new extractor. Install, and see what the bolt needs from there. Probably just hit the bottom right corner (looking towards bolt face) with a quick dot of weld, to build back the tiny pinch point that should be there. Shouldn't affect the temper of it overall if I do it quick and right. Like I said, one step at a time, and if need be I'll replace the bolt.

I hope you're going to do that little spot with tig.

quote:

Originally posted by copperlake:
I hope you're going to do that little spot with tig.

That would be my preference. Couldn't strike an ark with stick without blowing it away, Mig, possibly, but I'm not adept enough and would have to read the manual to set up the machine to do the tiny pulse needed. I'll likely use some blocking paste and copper shields/heat sinks also. I've got a couple decent TIG machines. Lincoln squarewave and a newer, bigger/more featured Everlast that I just set up and haven't practiced with yet.

Here's a lesson for gun mechanics.

A "pretty good" client shipped me a 9.3 Beretta OU and wanted scope installed with claw mounts....Then... a little too emphatically told me how good the rifle shot and asked me if I'd stand behind any POI changes.

My antennae was up so I took the rifle to the range before doing any work. Sure enough, barrels shot over 12 inches apart!

Sent it back with a bill for shipping, range time and ammo.

Never heard another word from him and the bill was never paid...But... In the long run, actually got off pretty cheap'

I like my Everlast machine. I don't think you would need anything but air at 100PSI after that little dab. That will cool it pronto. I don't know why you need to do it anyway? Plenty of bolt heads from the past with NO rim support at all, like the Type 30 Japanese, Greek Mannlicher..

Anyone that sells a problem gun without disclosing the problem is a scurvey dog and should be horse whipped!!!!!!

.

My gut tells me that the bolt face should be done first. But, as I said, no professional experience/training here. The extractor appears to have been messed with yet might work just fine post clean up of the face? I've welded heat treated parts with my mig before with most of the part submerged in water to keep the heat local. Just another thought to ponder. Have fun with it.

quote:

Originally posted by ssdave:
Custombolt, I'll sequentially work on it, and see what it takes. It feeds okay now, and even almost holds the cartridge, if you hold the extractor back with your fingers. So, I'll get and modify for magnum a new extractor. Install, and see what the bolt needs from there. Probably just hit the bottom right corner (looking towards bolt face) with a quick dot of weld, to build back the tiny pinch point that should be there. Shouldn't affect the temper of it overall if I do it quick and right. Like I said, one step at a time, and if need be I'll replace the bolt.

That low-down sneaky S.O.B. Your dirtbag radar was in full working order.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Here's a lesson for gun mechanics.

A "pretty good" client shipped me a 9.3 Beretta OU and wanted scope installed with claw mounts....Then... a little too emphatically told me how good the rifle shot and asked me if I'd stand behind any POI changes.

My antennae was up so I took the rifle to the range before doing any work. Sure enough, barrels shot over 12 inches apart!

Sent it back with a bill for shipping, range time and ammo.

Never heard another word from him and the bill was never paid...But... In the long run, actually got off pretty cheap'

We get the ones who bring in an old, rusted and gummed up shotgun for a "cleaning". Since the guns are unable to be test fired you can't check that prior to cleaning. Then you discover multiple issues. They then claim it worked before and you must have broken something.

The worst is where we get an elderly gentleman come by wanting to pick up his guns a "friend" left to be repaired for him. The alleged friend of course never left the guns but stole them and blamed it on us. This happened twice last year.

quote:

Originally posted by custombolt:
That low-down sneaky S.O.B. Your dirtbag radar was in full working order.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Here's a lesson for gun mechanics.

A "pretty good" client shipped me a 9.3 Beretta OU and wanted scope installed with claw mounts....Then... a little too emphatically told me how good the rifle shot and asked me if I'd stand behind any POI changes.

My antennae was up so I took the rifle to the range before doing any work. Sure enough, barrels shot over 12 inches apart!

Sent it back with a bill for shipping, range time and ammo.

Never heard another word from him and the bill was never paid...But... In the long run, actually got off pretty cheap'

i bought a ruger#1 here on AR recently. was advertised as coming with a set of ruger#1 rings. took forever to get here with my threatening to ask for a refund before it finally got shipped. scope rings looked like they were made from a tin can, so i got some ruger made rings. seller gave me a date of mfg and a model # of gun. i started researching it on ROCS (Ruger Owners and Collectors Society) and found out it has to be a frankensgun. bbl type doesn't match that reciever. i'm keeping it as after several load trys it groups well and i'm using as a hunting rifle, not a collectors item. still.............would of been nice to have known the truth! and he is not new here on AR.

Ruger barrels are not timed to the receiver and a take off barrel will not fit another rifle. So, the seller may not have known he had a replacement barrel. As for the rings, that is different.
If that happens again, rat him or her, out.

I bought a Ruger 257 AI used, for my elderly father to use, the '06 was just getting to be too much. When I got around to fire forming, I had a total case head separation at the range. Whoever did the conversion didn't set back and rechamber, just ran it in. So I ended up with a 257 extra improved. I was able to make due by sizing down 7x57 brass and creating a false shoulder, works great now, but still was a pucker moment

Call me skeptical but with both vehicles and guns I say that nobody ever wakes up in the morning and thinks "I'm not doing anything today and I'm bored, I think I'll go trade in this (gun or vehicle) that I've had ABSOLUTELY NO TROUBLE WITH FOR THE LAST 10 YEARS on something brand new!"

quote:

Originally posted by Mark:
Call me skeptical but with both vehicles and guns I say that nobody ever wakes up in the morning and thinks "I'm not doing anything today and I'm bored, I think I'll go trade in this (gun or vehicle) that I've had ABSOLUTELY NO TROUBLE WITH FOR THE LAST 10 YEARS on something brand new!"

I brought a lot of used guns.

Divorce, other money problems, I want the latest and greatest.

Are the main reasons many people sell.

I never been screwed by a non working firearm.

But then I know what I am looking for.

Could it happen sure. but so far in 55 years of gun buying I am good.

If incorrectly functioning guns could not be sold without disclosing the issue, then the vast majority of "custom" guns would have a lengthy disclosure sheet.

John

That's how some people choose to deal with their "problems",, push it off on to someone else. I've given 'estimates' for repairs/re-barrels/stocking in my shop where the 'client' (and I use that word loosely) declared "I don't want to spend that much, I think I'll take it to the gunshow/pawnshop instead of fixing it". Same can be said for the private sales of cars and trucks. Lots of times the 'problems' are not revealed to the buyer.

I disagree with all of the above and have an alternative view of the issue; I find, most often, that the seller has little real idea what he has, and unless it is new in the box, little idea of it's true condition and how to operate it anyway. It is up to the buyer (and all AR members know how to function check and TI a firearm) to determine it's suitability for his needs. If not, then don't rely on the seller; he doesn't know; get someone who knows about guns to inspect it.
I'm with PDS: "I know what to look for".
And I do, and I can tell what I am getting. I haver never been duped.

Member here, Slamfire thinks the way to get rid of guns about to blow up is to trade them off! Quoting from the Bolt Setback Thread:

quote:

Originally posted by SlamFire:
Don't do what most do, shoot the thing till the receiver ring blows!
Old soft receivers will set back.

Having owned one defective National Ordnance M1903A3, I would consider any National Ordnance product to be worth only the sum of its GI parts.

The cast receiver on my rifle was so soft, that the receiver lug seat set back under bolt load. Headspace increased and had I continued to fire it, I would have had a cartridge rupture.

When I first purchased it, I took it over to a gunsmith to have the headspace checked. The gunsmith told me that the headspace was excessive. I took it back to the place of purchase. The seller than sent it to a gunsmith who did something. I don’t know what, maybe he cut an extra thread on the barrel.

I don’t remember how many rounds I fired. But it was probably under 200. Might have been less than 100. Early rounds were difficult to extract. Took a bit of effort to raise the bolt. As the number of rounds downrange increased, the more difficult it became to raise the bolt handle. Towards the end, I had to beat the bolt handle to open it. The little light bulb went off in my head and I figured out that the lugs were pounding the receiver seats backward. I was having to size the case with the bolt, to open the bolt. I decided not to shoot the thing anymore.

I traded the rifle plus a RIA 1903 double heat treat on a Ruger #1.

So, this a-holes solution to a gun he thinks is about to blow up is to trade it off to someone else. How charitible!

I have also heard of guys trying to sell demilled rifles for the price of a functional rifle. Chambers cut or plugged etc. Most collectors are savvy with demilled drill and ceremony rifles. Cool wall hangers, but not meant to be fired ever again

I'd forgotten this, but I bought a muzzleloading barrel and inline action for some forgotten reason 15 or 20 years ago. Experiment I wanted to do. Can't remember the company that made it, but it was a modern inline, and had a serial # and name etched on it.

Decided I wasn't going to use it, and put it on ebay. Instantly got a whole bunch of inquiries wanting to know the serial number. Hmmmm.... what do they know that I don't? didn't send anyone the #. Did a search online, and found that that make/model had been recalled for barrel blowing up. If you sent the serial # of the barrel back, they sent you a new gun. Everybody wanted the serial # to send in and get a new gun.

I called the company and the previous owner had claimed the new gun, and then sold the barrel and action to me. Knowing it was recalled for a defect, and had a history of blowing up.

I resold the assembly on ebay as needing a new barrel, disclosing it had been recalled, and drilled a hole through the barrel 4 inches in front of the receiver. Describe that I was doing that in the ad. The buyer was mad, he'd wanted it to shoot, and thought that I was just saying I had drilled the hole so ebay would think it was demilled and okay to sell. He didn't think it was a problem to shoot a muzzleloader recalled for blowing up.

I should have just trashed the whole thing. Really irritated me at the time that the original owner would sell a known defective barrel to someone else to use.