Also, Serengeti Stocks. Please help me understand this stock concept. The comb is lower than the heel, and I understand that theory is less recoil, but how does it feel to you holding the rifle? I am not saying this is a poor design, but I it is definitely not the traditional stock I fell in love with.




Not all of the Empire guns appear to have this style stock, however they say:

quote:

A few key principles define Empire’s stocks. Elegant lines. High, straight comb with negative pitch to minimize felt recoil. Open wrist and perfect balance for quick pointing. Slender forend retaining enough body for a solid grip. We give hunters stock configuration options to best meet their shooting style.

Additionally the Serengeti stock all appear to be made in this fashion.

Sometimes a lower comb nose is quite a bit more forgiving in heavier recoiling rifles. As it comes back at you it slopes down and away from your cheek.

I don't get it either.. Isn't this why monte carlo stocks were invented?? That portion of the stock that is above and off your shoulder is wasted wood.

Rich

A lot of the Serengeti patterns were developed by Mel Smart of Kalispell MT, who used to be the owner of the ACRA-Bond technique, which Serengeti purchased and continued after Mel passed away. Mel was an old hand at stock building, and believed this design was beneficial to recoil handling.

I remember the last time we discussed this. A lot of vitriolic replies from people, who not only considered themselves experts, but who seemed most uncomfortable with the thought, that not all stocks be designed the way they saw fit.

I also remember a lot of Serengti customers chiming in, to state the design worked really well, and that they were perfectly happy. Naturally, we can safely ignore such statements based on actual experience, and concentrate on the theoretical reasons why this can't possibly work.

- mike

P.S. is this really "negative pitch" or is it "negative drop"???

Looks like a Weatherby concept with classic accents added. Doesn't work for me, but that's just my opinion.

Terry

I've got a Serengeti stock on a hard kicking Dakota. It's not a huge deal but if you want a very low mounted scope (as I do) it forces your (my) neck into an uncomfortable position. The top 1" of the stock is amost always floating above my shoulder also. Finally, I prefer the looks of a stock having approx 1/2" drop at heel, if that matters. Like I said, it's not a huge deal, but having used my extensively, I've found that I much prefer a classic style stock.

MonteCarlo stocks and heavy kicking rifles are seldom good dance partners, IMO.

Pitch refers to the angle of the butt with the bore. If you put your rifle with butt flat on the floor and move it up to a wall, the distance the muzzle is away from the wall is positive pitch. If the muzzle hits the wall first, you have negative pitch.

jim

Pitch is the angle of the buttplate in relation to the centerline of the bore. I see it referenced more with respect to shotgun stocks that rifles. It is measured by standing the arm on it's butt flat on the floor with the receiver or action up against a wall. Usually measured at 26" or 28", the distance between the wall and the barrel/s is the pitch angle of the butt.

I got the two confused asa rookie would do, but still stocks look low on comb and high on the heel. I am really not into opening up a drawn out discussion like I just found on these stocks during a search.

How about we just let this one go?

333_OKH,

No worries. I didn't mean to imply anything other than to explain what I thought I understood as pitch. I have one of Serengetis' stocks. Actually I ordered it right before Mel Smart passed away and had to wait for everything to change hands before Serengeti could deliver it. It works very well for me. With Talley low rings, line up is perfect... for me. The rifle is a 338-06 and while recoil isn't all that much, it manages what their is quite well. It took more getting used to looking at it than it did in actual use.

Whatever fits you...

Wouldn't work for me...

Stocks are very personal. If I am going to KEEP a gun and use it myself, then I quickly reshape the stock to
have a lower nose on the comb because of the way the bones in my face are shaped and the way I hold a gun. This radically reduces the thump I get from the recoil. I have no expectation that this will work for other folks.

I really like that first stock. Looks comfortable as well as beautiful.

quote:

the way the bones in my face are shaped

I actually have very high cheeck bones and have had stock in the past that are too high for use on sights. Ther eis no way that I can useopen sights on either my M700 DBL 338, nor my Finnbear.

I bought a Blaser K95 with US 'straight' comb stock that is actualy higher at heel than comb. It works so well I would seriously consider having the stock geometary copied.

I am generaly very conservative re stock design but this works extremely well indeed.

While it isn't specific to this comb design discussion, I called Serengeti a few months ago and enquired about a different design, as I don't care for the rear-climbing comb. (Just an appearance thing...) Serengeti seemed quite willing to adjust the design to the straight comb I requested, as well as modifying the grip to the more closed pattern I prefer. All in all, they seemed like a good group to deal with.

Jaywalker

I haven't shoot, that I know of, a negative drop (pitch is the angle of the buttpad - but i bet the pad is actually pitched, too) stock, other than the newest winchester safari in 375. As a 375 recoil isn't bad, I didn't notice much difference in a slight drop stock.

A good comparision is drop .. was shooting a 470 NE (heym) and my 470 AR... the AR has a higher calculated recoil, but felt something like 2/3 of the actual recoil than the NE.

I think a negative drop stock would put your head in an "interesting" position, one that might work for lesser recoiling guns (say 35 and down) but might be a negative in heavy kickers.

there's a balance between drop (recocil in cheek) and straight (recoil in shoulder) ..

since I weld my cheek to the stock, when you shoot a big kicker, the gun actually comes BACK faster than up, even in 116# of recoil

jeffe

Empire states that the negative drop pitch is actually the drop I was describing and it the same style stock design as Senengeti.

333, I need to buy a few books and get better educated on stock geometry, but I have a couple of Serengeti stocks, one is a copy of a SAKO geometry. I also have an Empire rifle as well as having shot another Empire rifle one of my buddies bought, they all handle recoil extremely well. When shot side by side with same calibers in same barrel length, the Serengeti and Empires definitely produce less felt recoil.

Hope this helps--Don