Chuck White is Right IMHO! You have my vote. van

quote:

Originally posted by larrys:
Muzzle down. Unloaded of course! Muzzle damage affecting accuracy is HIGHLY overstated and from my experience, bullshit. Ask Saeed, he did experiments on this a couple years ago where he literally distroyed the crown of a rifle and his accuracy actually improved, as I remember. I did the same thing with a 30-06 that I was going to re-barrel. I sat it in 2" of water for a week, and even took a chisel and hammered a cut toward the rifling on the inside of the crown...no effect on accuracy, still moa. It might have a bad effect on a 1/4" rifle, but not the ordinary hunting rifle. Urban myth.

Bullshit!

If you take a weapon that is shooting a particular size group, and do something to interfere with, or, otherwise change the bullets normal release, the bullets flight WILL change.

quote:

Originally posted by larrys:
It might have a bad effect on a 1/4" rifle, but not the ordinary hunting rifle. Urban myth.

Why would it affect a 1/4" gun and not the "ordinary" hunting rifle???

Do yourself a favor and drop this line of crap. I, and thousands of gunsmiths around the world, including other folks on this list, have restored life to countless weapons by repairing out of whack and damaged crowns. The evidence is on our side...

It seems this is a real flame war, so I won't express my opinion, just relate an incident that happened to a friends Dad when I was in High School (40+ years ago). He placed his 243 whatever into the jeep muzzle down. It was loaded Bottom line is gun went bang, bullet went not through the floor or firewall, but richoceted up, through the seat and through his groin. He lived, had major medical expenses and seemed reasonably normal. This all hinged on one thing LOADED GUN. So I really don't care how you carry it, just make sure it has an empty chamber.

Many of you guys either didn't read my original post or just didn't understand it!

I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT LEAVING THE GUN LOADED! I SAID MAKE SURE THAT IT IS UNLOADED AND THE ACTION OPEN!

The question was about damaging the crown and the rifling at the end of the barrel by putting the end of the barrel on the floorboard of the truck!

ANYWAY, I got a PM from a guy with a complete explaination of exactly what I was looking for, and to him I say thanks!

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck White:
Many of you guys either didn't read my original post or just didn't understand it!

I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT LEAVING THE GUN LOADED! I SAID MAKE SURE THAT IT IS UNLOADED AND THE ACTION OPEN!

The question was about damaging the crown and the rifling at the end of the barrel by putting the end of the barrel on the floorboard of the truck!

ANYWAY, I got a PM from a guy with a complete explaination of exactly what I was looking for, and to him I say thanks!

Chuck,

Most of us understood it and were only replying to all of the people that were talking about Muzzle up or down as it related to safety and/or accidents they had heard or seen.

Despite a few opposing comments, you are perfectly correct in assuming that a damaged, nicked or scraped crown can have a negative effect on accuracy. I have home made muzzle protectors that I use on all my rifles when they are stored and when transporting them in or out of a case.

Thanks Rick!

It's just that sometimes when someone asks a question on the FORUMS, some people take things way out of context! Then the whole meaning of the original question is lost!

Thanks again;

Chuck, for a direct answer, muzzle up, bolt open and of course "empty"
I have several of the pictured scope and muzzle protectors that I use often as usually my scopes are more valueable than the guns in most cases.

quote:

Originally posted by jimmyd223:
Chuck, for a direct answer, muzzle up, bolt open and of course "empty"
I have several of the pictured scope and muzzle protectors that I use often as usually my scopes are more valueable than the guns in most cases.

Excellent color choice!

Well, in states where it is even legal to have an uncased rifle in a vehicle, we've always gone muzzle up. Too much mud and crap on the floor usually from getting in and out of the truck. I wouldn't worry about damage to the muzzle (I've had some marred crowns that still shot just fine), but I might worry about wedging something up in the barrel from a muzzle down position. JMO...

Malm, sorry you don't like the experiences of other people in the real world as well. Crap spews both ways, especially from wannabe gunsmiths who claim many great and wonderful things. Like short and fat cases are always better....controlled round feed is always better....etc, etc, etc.

I say, resurrected with a crown job...crap detector going off!

See there, you don't beileve me because I've done it and I certainly don't believe you..who cares.

Another comment from a famous barrel maker...this time from Krieger. Read the last sentence carefully.


“You should use a good quality straight cleaning rod with a freely rotating handle and a rod guide that fits both your receiver raceway and the rod snugly. How straight and how snug? The object is to make sure the rod cannot touch the bore. With service rifle barrels a good rod and guide set-up is especially important as all the cleaning must be done from the muzzle and even slight damage to the barrel crown is extremely detrimental to accuracy.“

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
Another comment from a famous barrel maker...this time from Krieger. Read the last sentence carefully.


“You should use a good quality straight cleaning rod with a freely rotating handle and a rod guide that fits both your receiver raceway and the rod snugly. How straight and how snug? The object is to make sure the rod cannot touch the bore. With service rifle barrels a good rod and guide set-up is especially important as all the cleaning must be done from the muzzle and even slight damage to the barrel crown is extremely detrimental to accuracy.“

How can that be???

In my truck if I go muzzle up, the rifle wants to rest on the scope. If I go muzzle down, the rifle sits right there ready to go. I do duct tape a folded shop rag to place the barrel on, this is in a carpeted truck. In 20 plus years, of riding around ranches I have no crown damage.

quote:

Originally posted by larrys:
Malm, sorry you don't like the experiences of other people in the real world as well.

No, on the contrary, I have no problem with others experiences when it's not misleading, or, dangerous. There is a notable difference between fact and fiction and making a claim such as you did regarding muzzle damage and accuracy, is fiction. There isn't a single credible source that will back your claim that muzzle damage doesn't affect accuracy.

quote:

Originally posted by malm:

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
Another comment from a famous barrel maker...this time from Krieger. Read the last sentence carefully.


“You should use a good quality straight cleaning rod with a freely rotating handle and a rod guide that fits both your receiver raceway and the rod snugly. How straight and how snug? The object is to make sure the rod cannot touch the bore. With service rifle barrels a good rod and guide set-up is especially important as all the cleaning must be done from the muzzle and even slight damage to the barrel crown is extremely detrimental to accuracy.“

How can that be???

Well, you know these damned rookies like Shilen and Krieger don’t really know much about rifle barrels. Perhaps if they spent some time reading the posts on AR they could learn a thing or three!

Malm, like I say, my results and Saeed's are different. So I still say, urban myth.

Saeed experiment
Let's see your experiment. Are there brush busting bullets too?

One experiment or two experiments make interesting reading & thinking, but statistically aren't worth a heck of a lot as universal guides.

The THEORY behind damaged crowns negatively affecting bullet impact has to do with the attitude of the bullet as it leaves the guidance of the bore.

If powder gas at high pressure escapes from the bore a bit earlier at one point than at all the others, it can tip the bullet a little just as it begins free flight. Because bullets do not fly straight, nor with exactly the same velocity each shot, and as air is not a perfectly homogenous "liquid", the coning flight of the bullet varies more than usual from shot to shot when it is tipped as it leaves the bore.

That happens to some degree even with bullets launched from an apparently perfect crown, and is a contributor to some degree large or small to the fact that we get "groups" of shots on the target rather than just a single hole when we fire more than one shot.

So, because the flight of the bullet is a compound motion consisting of cones on cones, bullets leaving the bore at different velocities and at a different than concentric to the bore launch angle, will not trace identical paths.

IF the theory is correct, it may go a way to explaining why I don't know of any regularly successful match shooters who voluntarily shoot with crowns that are less than as good as they can get them. There may be some, but I haven't spoken with them.

AC, I agree with what you said, for the most part. Part of the point is that any imperfection in the crown will have the same effect on every shot the same, just as a "perfect" crown would. If it pushes them off, it pushes them all off. It is the same reason that one particular type of conventional crown can not claim to be totally the best. The 11 degree is no better than the 11 degree with a 14 degree inner crown, or the flat crown that some target rifles have. Almost anything in the reloading process has more effect than the crown. I agree that no bench rest shooter would knowlingly damage their crown, not the point.

So far, I have heard a lot of "theory" and "they all said" so it must be right. I am still looking for any other experiments or tests. A lot of people said the world was flat for a long time too. Show me other real data, I still have an open mind to it. I just stated the real experience I have had and seen. Two real life experiments means a lot more to me than a lot of theory.

The point for this thread is still the same...if the muzzle gets a little worn from being down, I do not think you will ever notice it.

Up.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by larrys:
AC, I agree with what you said, for the most part. Part of the point is that any imperfection in the crown will have the same effect on every shot the same, just as a "perfect" crown would.QUOTE].

Unfortuhnately, I don't believe that is what happens. If the velocity was the same each shot, it likely would. But, as the pressure is a bit different from shot to shot, sometimes as much as 6,000 psi, the early release of propelling gas does not tip the bullets the same amount from shot to shot. And, as any tip will make the bullet fly to a diferent place because of the varying coning motion it induces, varying tipping may have even more effect.

-------------

[/ [QUOTE]If it pushes them off, it pushes them all off.QUOTE]

Yes, it does push them all off, but not by the same amount.
--------------

[QOUTE. It is the same reason that one particular type of conventional crown can not claim to be totally the best. The 11 degree is no better than the 11 degree with a 14 degree inner crown, or the flat crown that some target rifles have.unquote]


Not actually the same, I suspect. The varying crown angles are all assumed to be perfect crowns, with gas escape balanced on all sides behind the bullet, thus not inducing undesirable and varying tipping.
---------------

[QUOTE. Almost anything in the reloading process has more effect than the crown.UNQOUTE]


It is true that many things have large affect on bullet flight. However, tipped bullets have very large effects downrange. That's one of the major reasons we use rifling to start with, it minimizes tipping, tumbling, and similar irregular gyrations.
\-----------------------


QUOTE[I agree that no bench rest shooter would knowlingly damage their crown, not the point.

Two real life experiments means a lot more to me than a lot of theory.]UNQUOTE



You of course have every right to believe that. There are several major contributors to rifle accuracy, and equipment is a biggy. To build really good equipment, it helps if we understand how the equipment works and why, as well as observe its performance. Theory is man's attempt to explain why things work and is every bit as important, if not more important, than relatively few observations...at least that is my opinion.

One of these days when we pass on to that great range in the sky, perhaps we'll know for sure.
-----------------------





QUOTE[ The point for this thread is still the same...if the muzzle gets a little worn from being down, I do not think you will ever notice it. QUOTE]

True, that is the point. I just happen to believe that it takes a lot less crown damage to notice it than you do.

That doesn't make either of us right or wrong, just holders of different opinions, which we are both expressing.

Have ahappy New Year either way, and don't forget to stop & smell the gunpowder (</)

Obviously, and I assume everyone can agree on this, a damaged muzzle will in some way alter the muzzle blast. If one accepts the fact that muzzle blast has an effect on the bullet when it exits the bore then logic would follow that a change in the dispersion pattern of the expanding gases that cause muzzle blast would also result in a change on the effect it has on the bullet.

According to the Army’s ballistic research lab, muzzle blast (which would be effected by the physical condition of the muzzle) has a definite effect on a bullet for a distance of about 15 to 20 calibers...or somewhere around 4 to 6 inches for a .30 caliber bullet.

The largest and the strongest effect is at the instant that the bullet clears the muzzle and the gas “seal†is broken. If a chip, ding, or other uneven surface is present in the muzzle the gases causing the muzzle blast are not going to act equally on the entire circumference of the bullet since they will tend to “spit†off through the damaged area as the bullet leaves the bore. Sort of like chipping a portion off the edge of an exhaust valve in a car.

This same phenomenon has to be calculated for when designing a flash suppressor and/or muzzle break. If you doubt that try plugging some of the holes/slots in one of those things and see what happens to your accuracy.

Now, it is quite possible that an imperfection or slight damage to a muzzle could be compensated for by sight adjustments alone...IF it was causing a CONSISTENT deflection of the bullet.

I have no way of proving this...but it makes sense that anything much less than an intentionally “machined†imperfection would not be something that would be very consistent in the way it allowed the gases to spit out from shot to shot over a long period of time. If the imperfection/damage gets into the rifling it would have even more of an unpredictable effect since fouling and jacket material would be scraped off with each round passing down the bore and each shot would have a different muzzle configuration to deal with.

The other factor that would be effected by muzzle damage is the shock wave that proceeds the bullet down the bore. That shock wave also has an effect on the bullet for a certain distance after leaving the bore because the bullet will have to pass through first its wake then the wave itself shortly after exiting the bore.

Muzzles are crowned to protect the rifling, so I don't sweat going muzzle-down now and then. But mostly I keep rifles unloaded and cased in the back seat or in the back of the truck. No animal is worth an accident from trying to get a rifle into action too quickly.

As for loaners, that's why God has given us all those cheap surplus 98 Mausers.


Okie John

As I posted before I use the Eagle Ind and Blackhawk scope and muzz protectors. Here is a picture of 3 on a Tactical gun, Bench rest gun and a hunting gun. These things are cheap and can be removed in seconds. I also like them when I am hiking in rough area's such as the Goat rock area, just added protection. They are also great for use when using your 4 wheeler to get to that hunting area.

I put my rifle in a soft case and lay it on the floor behind my seat (extended cab truck) or when I had a truck w/o the extension, behind the seat. Muzzle, receiver, scope and stock are all protected. Why settle for less.

Go around with the rifle up or down makes me think you're "road hunting"

DNR might also think the same thing.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
all the cleaning must be done from the muzzle .“

"Must" is it. So, what's wrong with the Otis cleaning system?

I personly found it a bit fiddely until I disregarded their instructions, and left the few bits I needed "out and handy".

I agree with the first poster, mussle down on anything hard and dirty sounds terrible.
But holding a rifle with the muzzle pointing at yourself at speed also seems unnecessary.

Each to his own I reckon, as long as it doesn't go bang.

Once I had a rifle in a soft cover on the back seat, yep, a dickhead jumped in the back and sat on it.

Many people here shoot from a vehicle, if one has a driver the LEAST i'd expect is for them to keep the muzzle OUTSIDE the window.

For the record, when I'm on my own, traveling slow in the bush it's muzzle up chamber empty bolt closed, or at worse bolt handle UP.

I'v mentioned before some pro shooters closing the bolt and holding the trigger back, on a loaded round, butt down in gun racks. They reckoned they'ed never gone off. And they drove like maniacs thru the bush chasing buffs.

A friend just recently was telling me about a fox shoot he was on one nite, and about this faulty trigger. He shot the transmission case.
He was doing the load with the fireing pin down trick, and wouldn't have it as being dangerous.

When I asked him to demonstrait his style with my empty loaner, within a few goes sure enough, he closed the bolt BEFORE he pulled the trigger. It was quite a loud click, so imagine the enclosed bang he heard one night. Serves the bugger right.

JAL,

That was a quote from Krieger Barrel’s (not me) and I believe the statement was made prior to the Otis cleaning kits being on the market. He was also referring to using cleaning rods with jags and tight fitting patches which is a bit difficult (impossible?) to do with an M1A from the breech end.

Don't know about M1 A's but for a while I was gently pushing an unloaded rod down my 30-30, holding a nice tightly rag bound old bronze brush in the action, turned the rod carefully into the thread, and pulled like hell.

Probably wearing something with all the turning?