Dealing with a seller via web about a 1903.

He says it's only marked "Springfield Armory" and can't find a serial number.

Where were the serial numbers stamped on these?

He says the barrel is stamped 10-18, is this Oct. 1918? Assuming the barrel is origianl to the gun, it should be one of the heat treated actions, correct?


Thanks, Rob

The serial numbers were stamped on the right side of the forward receiver ring. If he can't find it, I'd be suspicious of the rifle.

Here's mine.

quote:

If he can't find it, I'd be suspicious of the rifle.

that's good advice for sure.

quote:

Originally posted by Recoil Rob:

He says it's only marked "Springfield Armory" and can't find a serial number.

Where were the serial numbers stamped on these?

quote:

He says the barrel is stamped 10-18, is this Oct. 1918? Assuming the barrel is origianl to the gun, it should be one of the heat treated actions, correct?

I wouldn't use the barrel date as gospel......but double-heat treating was indeed phased in by February 1918.

GV

Rob,
CMP should still have 03's for sale too...just an FYI. http://www.odcmp.com/

The seller sent the pics. What do you make of it?

I think either the pics are doctored, or the rifle has had the SN removed...
if the later, then I wouldn't even HOLD that rifle, just inform the gent I lost interest.

jeffe

Well I don't think the pics have been doctored, this is a general live auction site, the guy just took some quick photos for me. I don't think they expect the gun to bring much more than $150 or there abouts.

Wouldn't a good bit of the ring have to be removed to completely remove the S/N? I'll probably go to the preview anyway and inspect it but if it's been removed I should be able to tell of the ring is out of round.


Thanks, Rob

If it's going to a gunsmith ffl, i honestly doubt he can accept it without a SN..

jeffe

I had a springfield armory sporter stolin about 18 years ago. Maybe thats mine.

Had a lyman peep sight on it. Nice sporter stock too

quote:

Originally posted by Recoil Rob:
Well I don't think the pics have been doctored, this is a general live auction site, the guy just took some quick photos for me. I don't think they expect the gun to bring much more than $150 or there abouts.

Wouldn't a good bit of the ring have to be removed to completely remove the S/N? I'll probably go to the preview anyway and inspect it but if it's been removed I should be able to tell of the ring is out of round.


Thanks, Rob

I have a bunch of 03 actions and one of them has the serial number almost rubbed off. You have to look pretty close to see the last three numbers.

Serial number wern't required till sometime in the '60s.

I have several .22s that have no serial number.

but I can't imagine a US Military rifle not having one.

Some of the numbers of mine are a bit hard to make out, but you can see it it there.

This is a real stumper. While it's possible it didn't get a serial number put on it at the factory I can't imagine that significant detail being missed by by inspectors and those responsible when the rifle was issued. (I still have the little notebook that my father recorded the serial number of the 03A3 assigned to him in basic training)

So what are the other possibilities?

1) Was the receiver stolen during the manufacturing process? Eventually to be made up into a complete rifle.

2) Or were the serial numbers filled in/covered up?

The second one calls for a "why do that?" and I can't think of one single, legit answer.

Beats me too, the rifle is still in military mode, doesn't seem to have been sporterized.

You should ask the dealer how he has it logged it in his bound book?

Not from a dealer, being offered at a general estate auction, never been in a "bound Book".

Rob

Quite an interesting gun. I wouldn't be afraid to drop a buck and a half on it.

Weagle

I have a Turk Mauser that has three serial numbers...you want to use one of them??

What do you want to bet it was originally stolen by some “enterprizing†GI? Any good auction house should have access to people that can raise lettering that has been removed or worn away.

If you compare it to GrandView's picture, the stamping looks different.

The letters look thin, not the normal, thick deep lettering and the words look more spaced out.

-Spencer

You will also notice that it has a period after Springfield...which is not original.

Springfield placed a period after 1903...and Rock Island placed periods after Arsenal and 1903...but none of the manufacturers placed periods after their name.

Back in 60's some 03's were made up from parts using new action bodies. I think the company was "Santa Fe" or some such. They wern't well regarded.
Good luck!

Never seen a 1903 without a serial number. Recoil, have him re-shoot the pictures showing a lighted close up of the area below the print. The serial number could be so faint as to be obscured by the finish.

quote:

Originally posted by hawkins:
Back in 60's some 03's were made up from parts using new action bodies. I think the company was "Santa Fe" or some such. They wern't well regarded. Good luck!

I think those were 03A3 type with the rear sight dovetail on the receiver bridge. This one is obviously a plain '03 version, so it is not one with one of those aftermarket investment-cast receivers (which were marked National Ordnance, or Santa Fe, or whatever, not "Springfield".....)

Jeffe, I see your point about the period after SPRINGFIELD, very suspicious. Also noticed that the "L" in "MODEL" looks as though it was double stamped by hand and the letters do not line up vertically as they do on Grandviews gun. Perhaps they had a different roll stamp by then.

Were any of the other parts on the gun also supposed to be numbered?

Here's a pic on which I adjusted the light levels to make the area in question more visible.

This is a tough one. Military arms had serial numbers long before it was required for all arms to have them. This way they could trace "lost" rifles to units and to specific soldiers.

The picture could have been doctored but if so it was well done. Why go to all that trouble just to obscure a SN for a gun you want to sell. It is easier to blot it out quick and make the blotting obvious than to take the time to hide and blend it. When I blew the picture up some of the pixels do look "off" which may indicate the photo was doctored. But that could also just be an artifact of lighting.

On the other hand if the seller is stating there is no SN then that rules out doctoring.

I would definately try and talk to the guy in person to find out about a SN. If he states there is not SN than I would be highly suspect of this particular rifle. It is not illegal to own a gun without an SN as some guns were infact produced and sold before SN's were mandatory. On the other hand it is a felony to own a gun that has had the SN removed. If interested I would definately look at it in person. Research methods to "raise" a SN that has been removed and try them out on the gun. Take a good smith with you as well.

While the action apears in good shape it may be best to pass on this one.

It may help to understand that this is a GENERAL ESTATE AUCTION. The auctioneer has hundreds of items for sale from an estate. He has 3 guns that were in the estate. I'm sure has much better things to do than doctor photos or eradicate numbers. He got the gun this way and is just sending me pictures. He's been more helpful than most guys who sell guns on Auction Arms, let alone someone who doesn't deal in guns. He's stated to me that he inspected the gun and there are no other numbers or marks except what I posted and the 10-18 on the barrel. If I have time this weekend I'll take a run over and look at it in person and report back.


Thanks, Rob

I am not an expert on history of 03's, or legal requirements with regards to SN's, but will give my opinion on the photo from what I know having doctored quite a few myself. (for not mischevious resions, taking weight off people in picks, removing people in backgrounds, removing zits etc.)

First, I don't know if that is a period after the Springfield, it might be, but it might be something on the rifle too, it isn't catching light quite the same way the other periods are. it doens't look to me like anything was done to it, the light gradiation across the surface is too consistent.

Isn't it possible that somebody got over agressive in polishing and then attempted to restamp the too light parts (like the L) and just didn't do the serial number? Or since it wasn't required decided they didn't like the SN on there? I think it is original stamping, or done at factory. Otherwise the person doing it would have to have the same font/design for their stamp, look at the 3 in 1903, looks the same to me.

just my opine.

Red

It’s against federal and most state laws to even have possession of a firearm that has had the serial number removed or changed. The executor of the estate is the “legal†owner of firearms in estate auctions.

Obviously this isn’t a fake 1903, so at some point it had a serial number and it either wore off or was intentionally removed for whatever reason.

Rob, It was common practice to remove the serial number and name from 1903’s, every early custom G&H and Hoffman had them removed. Normally all the markings were removed not just the number. There are many questions I would ask about this rifle other than the missing serial number. If you could get a detailed description and pictures of the rifle I’ll try to help. Write me at mjpetrov@acsalaska.net

Michael,

I don’t profess to know anywhere near what you do about 03’s...but this rifle is not a custom sporter, it’s a pretty plain looking military rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
Michael,

I don’t profess to know anywhere near what you do about 03’s...but this rifle is not a custom sporter, it’s a pretty plain looking military rifle.

Rick
That’s true it’s not a sporter, however sporters are not my only interest and this one has me interested. I’m not sure what we are looking at but IMO it needs to be looked at seriously. It may turnout to be a messed up POS than again it may not be.

MP

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Petrov:

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
Michael,

I don’t profess to know anywhere near what you do about 03’s...but this rifle is not a custom sporter, it’s a pretty plain looking military rifle.

Rick
That’s true it’s not a sporter, however sporters are not my only interest and this one has me interested. I’m not sure what we are looking at but IMO it needs to be looked at seriously. It may turnout to be a messed up POS than again it may not be.

MP

I agree, its interesting, and I can’t see why anyone would remove the serial number on a full trim military rifle unless it was stolen at some point or the original stamping was worn off and they tried to restore it but didn’t know what serial number to put on it.

I have a Remington 03 action where the only printing that is clear is the S in U.S. and the last two digits of the serial number. The printing is worn so bad I could have everything off of it in about ten minutes with a piece of crocus cloth.

So I assume no other parts are numbered on a 1903?

quote:

Originally posted by Recoil Rob:
So I assume no other parts are numbered on a 1903?

The USMC sniper versions had the serial
number on the bolt...but that was not done to the standard issue rifles.

Other parts have factory identifiers and inspector marks and proof marks but not the serial number. It isn’t real practical to mark parts with the serial number on a military rifle that will most likely see a few re-furbishings over its life time.

Only the Mausers were AR enough, eh?

I think Sledgely was another one that removed the names and numbers on their custom rifles back in the 20's and 30's. Precision Shooting magazine had a picture of Teddy Roosevelt's sporter. If I remember correctly it had only the serial number stamped on it and it was positioned so that you could read it from the LEFT side. Made in 1906, so maybe there were some special rifles made that don't fit the general pattern. Just a WAG. Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Meyer:
I think Sledgely was another one that removed the names and numbers on their custom rifles back in the 20's and 30's. Precision Shooting magazine had a picture of Teddy Roosevelt's sporter. If I remember correctly it had only the serial number stamped on it and it was positioned so that you could read it from the LEFT side. Made in 1906, so maybe there were some special rifles made that don't fit the general pattern. Just a WAG. Bill

Bill,

If this was a sporter I might buy into that. But why in the world would that be the case with a regular old military 03? Just doesn’t make sense...to me anyway.

Post the pic on the Springfield 1903 forum at www.jouster.com where the real experts lurk. They will give you the lowdown.