Hi everybody,

for my custom project (which should have been finished by now but I just cant stop fiddling with different components and options! ) I can either take:

Rem 700 Stainless short action
+ HS Precision DBM conversion
+ aftermarket 3-way-safety
+ Sako extractor

or

Sako 75 Stainless Action III, which includes a sort of 3-way-safety, a decent dbm and obviuosly the Sako extractor.

Prize of these two options is roughly the same.
Which would you pick and why?

Thanks very much for your advice, cheers,

elwood.

[Sakos are nice straight out of the box but Rem's as much as I think there putrid are a kit to which you have an endless supply of stuff.

Still amazes me how the rem 700 caught on..........I have owned a couple over time and will soon have another in the cabnit. It seems for varmint accuracy as much as I detest them there an easy path to follow, probably more so than the sako.

The brazed bolt handle and the bolt head & bottom metal is what makes me cringe......even though it works fine

Elwood, it really depends what you want to do with the gun. I take it, since you are choosing a Sako 75 III, that you are looking for a fairly larger cartridge, i.e. you are building a big game hunting rfle as opposed to a target or varmint rifle. Correct??

Reason I ask: I much prefer the Sako action (even the M75) to the Rem M700. The Sakos are just smoother and more solidly built, just a better feel all around. EXCEPT, if I want to customize the action for the utmost in accuracy (short of a custom action), say put on a different trigger (Jewell springs to mind). If that is the case, I stay away from the Sako, as after-market parts for that action are practically non-exiting. So if you want the ultimate in trigger, go with a Remington/Jewell combination.

Personally, I would not bother with Sako extractors and detachable mag conversions for the M700. If I really wanted to shell out cash on a M700, I would get the Jewell, get the action and bolt head squared and threads cleaned up, add a Holland recoil lug and possibly another firing pin assembly. But even the two latter items may well be beyond what is really required.

- mike

quote:

Originally posted by mho:
So if you want the ultimate in trigger, go with a Remington/Jewell combination.

- mike

Having owned both, I would respectfully disagree. While Jewells have more adjustment latitude, they are no better in terms of quality than a factory Sako trigger (particularly the 75).

A custom rifle based on a Sako 75 is almost too easy. Bed it properly into a stunning piece of wood like those ForrestB favors, and maybe true the action up if factory accuracy isn't up to Sako's usually high standards.

There's a lot of kit for Model 700s out there because of their many shortcomings as they come.

Thanks for your anwers!

This rifle is going to be a big game rifle in .308 Win. It will have to kill everything from crows to moose.

Accuracywise, let's put it this way - my gunsmith gives a < 1/2 MOA guarantee for 3 shots at 100m with factory ammo and he says usually all of his rifles do better than that.

Whichever action I choose, the gunsmith is going to true the complete action anyway. I could leave out the Sako extractor but the 3-way-safety and the DBM conversion are a must!

So why go for the Rem 700 when the Sako has all this?

The trigger is a good point, of course. Are there really NO aftermarket triggers AT ALL for this action? How well can the Sako triggers be tuned?

My point is, can I expect same accuracy, ruggedness and reliability from both actions if properly trued and installed with the other components of the rifle (McMillan stock, Lothar Walther barrel)?

Thanks very much for your thoughts,

elwood.

quote:

Originally posted by elwood:

The trigger is a good point, of course. Are there really NO aftermarket triggers AT ALL for this action? How well can the Sako triggers be tuned?

Elwood, I have had Sako 75s in the past, and I have a Jewell trigger in one of my target rifles. The only adjustment on a Jewell that Sakos lack is overtravel. And my 75 did not need to be adjusted in that regard.

Once again, when quality comes standard, it is not necessary to have ten aftermarket choices.

Hi HP,

thats good to know, but I suppose Sako factory triggers cannot be adjusted all the way down to a couple of ounces like the Jewell right?

Otherwise I fully understand what you mean. It took some time till it occured to me that a Sako action includes most of the features I would have to add to a Rem 700.

Is it in any way more difficult to include a Sako action in a custom rifle? Are they harder to true?

Thanks very much,

elwood.

quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:
Having owned both, I would respectfully disagree. While Jewells have more adjustment latitude, they are no better in terms of quality than a factory Sako trigger (particularly the 75).

HP, the Sako triggers are not bad at all. I don't have a M75 myself, but I have 2 AVs, and an L461, which I believe all utilize the same trigger. Don't forget, though, that US trigger pulls are mostly quite a bit higher than commonly used in Europe. Maybe it has to do with the popularity of set triggers in Europe (the wretched things )?? So, where as you might be totally happy with the factory Sako trigger - and they really are not bad - I, for one, need a lighter trigger pull if I'm trying to build a target rifle. On my L461 in .222 Rem, I have been able to get the factory Sako trigger down to around 1 lbs 10 oz. Nice pull, but still considerably heavier than my other "target" rifles. Problem: if you shoot one pull one day, and a different one the next, it makes life more difficult than necessary.

This is where the M700 and the after-market triggers - in particular the Jewell, which is about the top of the heap - come in. I can safely go considerably lower in pull weight on the Jewell - even to the point that some Jewell settings are TOO low for my shooting needs. So, I tend to gravitate in the direction of actions that will accept a Jewell trigger - at least for target rifles.

OK, Elwood wants a hunting rifle. If he is aware of the trigger pull he can reasonably expect from the Sako, maybe that will be fine for him. But at least he should be aware of the parameters involved in the choice of actions. I think what Elwood needs to do, to clear up the issue of trigger choice, is 1) to look at what his other rifles are set at, 2) find somebody with a well adjusted Sako and see if he'd be happy with that for a big game hunting rifle. Most likely he will. Other than availability of after-market parts, I prefer the Sako action to the M700.

Elwood, I have yet to find a realistic alternative for a Sako trigger - and there are a bunch of people who are looking. Canjar is rumoured to make a set trigger, that fits some Sako actions. But just getting in touch with Canjar, let alone getting a trigger out of them is like winning in the lottery. I think Timney might make one, but I doubt that will be any better than the factory trigger - mostly Timneys adjust down to around 2lbs, a figure the Sako should achieve as well. Jard mumbles about a new Sako trigger part on their website, but it does not seem to be in production. Why on earth somebody (Jewell, Rifle Basix), does not finally produce a Sako after-market trigger, is beyond me. I can remember countless Internet discussions about this issue over the last couple of years, so it seems like there might be market out there...

- mike

P.S. Sako used to make a target type trigger installed on A1 and A2 rifles (often chambered for the PPC cartridges). That trigger is easily recognizable, as it had 2 holes in the trigger guard, allowing adjustment from the outside of the rifle. That trigger will go lower than the regular Sako trigger - I could get mine down to an excellent 1 lbs 2 oz. Great trigger. However, even compared to this excellent trigger, I still prefer the Jewell. The characteristics of the Sako trigger is pretty hard, and it definitely has a different "feel" than the Jewell (set to the same pull weight). Personal preferences, but I still prefer the Jewell.

How about a Sako set trigger if you want to go really light ? Optional on all model 75's sold in Oz and a nice way to go for a big game rifle . Have read that Jewells are great but due to minimal tolerances don't like any dirt in them .
Trueing an action involves similar processes for most makes . Generally just need a few specific tools for the action at hand . Check that your smith can handle a Sako .
The Sako will give you all the accuracy you can ever use in the field unless you're an absolute jet , "hunt" from a benchrest and load with full benchrest technique .
Check the resale value of used Sakos . There's a reason .

quote:

Originally posted by Bushchook:
How about a Sako set trigger if you want to go really light ? Optional on all model 75's sold in Oz and a nice way to go for a big game rifle . Have read that Jewells are great but due to minimal tolerances don't like any dirt in them .

Aha, interesting, I have never come across any of the Sako set triggers here in Europe (or in the States, for that matter)!

The comment about the disadvantages of the Jewell as a field trigger might be true. I know a lot of people prefer triggers like Shilens for M700 hunting rifles.

My comments about the use of a Jewell were really directed towards a possible target rifle. If Elwood wants a hunting rifle, parameters change.

You are probably also very right about the difference between a trued vs. a factory Sako action. Most likely, any advantage will easily be lost in the field. But hey, we all dream about the ultimate in accuracy for our toys. At least, I'm guilty as charged in this respect...

- mike

quote:

Originally posted by PC:
[Sakos are nice straight out of the box but Rem's as much as I think there putrid are a kit to which you have an endless supply of stuff.

Still amazes me how the rem 700 caught on..........I have owned a couple over time and will soon have another in the cabnit. It seems for varmint accuracy as much as I detest them there an easy path to follow, probably more so than the sako.

The brazed bolt handle and the bolt head & bottom metal is what makes me cringe......even though it works fine

Aside from urban legends and 3rd hand stories around the campfire, how many people do you personally know who have had a Remington 700 bolt handle come off? I’ve spoken to Marine Corps armorers and a couple of retired tech‘s from Remington about this topic and they just laugh and shake their heads. I’ve also seen a guy beating on his 700 bolt handle with a 2x4 to get a stuck case removed...and the handle survived just fine.

I’ve been using 700’s for about 40 years and have never had a bolt handle come off, never had an extractor break or fail to extract, and have never had any problems with the triggers or the safeties. You will hear people describe every one of those 700 features as being weak or unsafe.

In my opinion, choosing a modern firearm comes down to asthetics and personal preferences since all of the major brands make very sturdy, accurate and safe rifles that will be going strong long after the owners are pushing daisies!

elwood

Sako 75 is very good choice, fit a McMillan stock and take it hunting

If you can live with blued steel the old Winchester "push feed" is quite alright for custom projects, action has a nice trigger(could be upgraded with jewell) and safety.

Cheers
/JOHAN

Thanks everyone for your comments - they are very much appreciated!

@ mho:
I recently shot a mate's Sako 75 Varmint. He had a gunsmith adjust the trigger to the minimum of 900gram (2 lbs.?). It was harder than most of my other triggers (German "Stecher") but I always feel that enough pratice makes you comfortable with every trigger.

@Bushchook:
Sorry for my ignorance, but what on earth is a set trigger??? And if it is any good, would I be able to purchase one?

@mho:
I want the ultimate in accuracy that fits my budget, even for my hunting rifle. I want to know for sure that a miss is my mistake! 100% confidence in the capability of my rifle is very important for me!

@Rick0311:
I heard only good things about the Rem700 so far. You are right, in the end it all comes down to personal preference...

@JOHAN:
Sorry, cant do with blued steel. I need this rifle to be Stainless Steel ALL THE WAY!

By the way, can I trust that literally ALL METAL PARTS in a Sako Stainless action are indeed made from STAINLESS STEEL and Stainless Steel only? There is no use in a stainless action if one spring or screw in the trigger is chromo steel and get stuck due to rust...

Thanks everyone, I feel like I am getting closer,

elwood.

quote:

Originally posted by elwood:
@Bushchook:
Sorry for my ignorance, but what on earth is a set trigger??? And if it is any good, would I be able to purchase one?
elwood.

Set trigger (English) = "Stecher" (German).
- mike

quote:

Originally posted by mho:
Set trigger (English) = "Stecher" (German).
- mike

Aha, thanks for the enlightenment!

quote:

Originally posted by elwood:
Hi HP,

thats good to know, but I suppose Sako factory triggers cannot be adjusted all the way down to a couple of ounces like the Jewell right?

Some Jewells can be adjusted that low. Depends on the model.

mho, if you want a superlative trigger in your Remington or Winchester target rifle, call Briley in Houston and get one of their adapters for the Anschutz two stage match trigger.

If you're going to go, go all the way. I'm saving my pennies to just so to my Jewell-equipped Model 70 Highpower target rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:
mho, if you want a superlative trigger in your Remington or Winchester target rifle, call Briley in Houston and get one of their adapters for the Anschutz two stage match trigger.

Yes indeed, those Anschutz triggers are something else, aren't they. They are very common with the people I train with. Mostly, here in Switzerland, we get those triggers mounted on one of the Grünig and Elmiger rifles. Nice guns, even if the action only comes in one size for all calibers.

I have often thought about getting myself a G&E (with Anschutz trigger included), but thus far, I have shied away from them. Reason: I only want to shoot one basic type of trigger, and since all my hunting rifles have single stage triggers, that is the way I also went for the target work. But I do have to admit, those Anschutz triggers are 1st class.
- mike

quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by elwood:
Hi HP,

thats good to know, but I suppose Sako factory triggers cannot be adjusted all the way down to a couple of ounces like the Jewell right?

Some Jewells can be adjusted that low. Depends on the model.

Sorry, probably a misunderstanding - I was asking whether the SAKO triggers could be adjusted as low as the Jewell triggers? Probably not...

Last question for today: Something I have been wondering for wuite some time - can you trust that literally ALL METAL PARTS in Stainless actions are indeed made from STAINLESS STEEL and Stainless Steel only? There is no use in a stainless action if one spring or screw in the trigger is chromo steel and get stuck due to rust...

Since I am going to be hunting by the sea and weapons are getting soaked with salt water on a regular basis this is rather important for me!

Thanks everyone, good night,

elwood.

quote:

Originally posted by elwood:
Hi HP,

thats good to know, but I suppose Sako factory triggers cannot be adjusted all the way down to a couple of ounces like the Jewell right?

Some Jewells can be adjusted that low. Depends on the model.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, probably a misunderstanding - I was asking whether the SAKO triggers could be adjusted as low as the Jewell triggers? Probably not...

Last question for today: Something I have been wondering for wuite some time - can you trust that literally ALL METAL PARTS in Stainless actions are indeed made from STAINLESS STEEL and Stainless Steel only? There is no use in a stainless action if one spring or screw in the trigger is chromo steel and get stuck due to rust...

Since I am going to be hunting by the sea and weapons are getting soaked with salt water on a regular basis this is rather important for me!

Thanks everyone, good night,

elwood.[/QUOTE]

If it’s that important to you I would contact the manufacturer and ask.

The best gun springs are made from Chrome Silicon not from stainless steel so who knows?

Elwood, ANY firearm that gets soaked (or even sprayed) with salt water NEEDS to be rinsed clean with fresh water, stripped, dried, and lubricated ASAP regardless of what they may be made of.

quote:

Aside from urban legends and 3rd hand stories around the campfire, how many people do you personally know who have had a Remington 700 bolt handle come off? I’ve spoken to Marine Corps armorers and a couple of retired tech‘s from Remington about this topic and they just laugh and shake their heads. I’ve also seen a guy beating on his 700 bolt handle with a 2x4 to get a stuck case removed...and the handle survived just fine.

I'm no Charles Atlas, but I managed to pull the handle off of a .308 VSSF three years ago. I wish someone had caught the "What the f..." look on my face. Part of the handle stayed on the bolt; most came off in my hand. Where the metal sheared it looked like some crappy pot metal. I had my gunsmith replace it with one of those Billinglsey and Brownells handles with a proper silver solder job. My eldest has that rifle now and it works just fine.
lawndart

quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:
Elwood, ANY firearm that gets soaked (or even sprayed) with salt water NEEDS to be rinsed clean with fresh water, stripped, dried, and lubricated ASAP regardless of what they may be made of.

You are right of course, I agree 100%. But where I shall be hunting, these thorough cleaning procedures will only be possible after a couple of days. That's enough time for chromoly steel to catch some serious rust while stainless steel seems to be rather unaffected after this period of time.

These are the experiences I gained with fishing reels and rods that were partly made of stainless and chromoly steel. The difference was astounding! After this experience, it will have to be Stainless for me all the way!

Thanks,

elwood.

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:
I managed to pull the handle off of a .308 VSSF
lawndart

Holy f... - tell me what you are having for breakfast, I NEED THIS STUFF!!!

quote:

Originally posted by elwood:

quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:
Elwood, ANY firearm that gets soaked (or even sprayed) with salt water NEEDS to be rinsed clean with fresh water, stripped, dried, and lubricated ASAP regardless of what they may be made of.

You are right of course, I agree 100%. But where I shall be hunting, these thorough cleaning procedures will only be possible after a couple of days. That's enough time for chromoly steel to catch some serious rust while stainless steel seems to be rather unaffected after this period of time.

These are the experiences I gained with fishing reels and rods that were partly made of stainless and chromoly steel. The difference was astounding! After this experience, it will have to be Stainless for me all the way!

Thanks,

elwood.

Then you might want to get a Sako. If their catalog is to be believed, everything in their actions is stainless. A Remington would probably end up as a ball of rust.

Elwood ,
I take it you are now familiar with the set trigger idea . Sako is a single set , not a double set design . Any Sako dealer should be able to order one in for you if you're interested . Thought they would be pretty common in Europe ?
I just bought a CZ 527 which is my first rifle to have a single set trigger . Needed a little attention (like most factory triggers) to smoothe up the break when unset but I really like the concept and the results . Also are supposed to be less likely to accidentally discharge than a light conventional setup . Don't ask me why , I just read somewhere that the design is inherently safer .

Elwood
I've got a s/s Sako, there's one part in the gut's of the bolt that rusts, found out after my rifle went for a wee swim without me. Got home a week later and stripped the rifle because of the swim, while I was cleaning I thought hmm I wonder so stripped the bolt and there it was, nothing major but a bit of surface rust. You can't make spring's out of stainless. A very light oily rag had it fixed in no time.

Stephen

@ Bushchook:
Frankly I have never heard of the Sako set trigger so far... But sounds very interesting, I will give my Sako dealer a ring and find out if he can get me one. You are right, set triggers are extremely popular in Europe! Thanks for the info!

@ wirehunt:
See, that's what is bound to happen to my rifle where I hunt! And then it will be saltwater...
Didn't know that you cant make springs out of stainless steel - good to know - thanks!

Elwood ,
Have a look at the Sako (Finland) website and go to hunting rifles , then datatables . You will find the single set trigger listed as an option for all model 75's .

Indeed, you are right Bushchook! Never noticed that before - thanks very much!

Whats the trigger like, when it is unset? Does it have a pressure point or does it stand crisp? Can you tune that set trigger yourself or will you need a gunsmith?

Thanks for your help,

elwood.

Elwood ,
I don't have a Sako with a set trigger but believe they operate similarly to the CZ set trigger . Just got my CZ 527 with set trigger back from the gunsmith . As they come from the factory the CZ triggers (when unset) are a bit rough with some creep . After a bit of smoothing up they are absolutely fantastic when unset and I would estimate that mine breaks at about 2 pounds . When set it probably breaks at around 8 ounces or perhaps a little less . No creep , either way now . Breaks like a glass rod .When unset the trigger is like a normal single stage trigger with no take up . I reckon (for a hunting rifle) it's the best trigger I have ever tried .
I would be pretty confident that the Sako trigger will be at least as good . For the small cost I would suggest having a competent gunsmith do any work that may be required other than basic adjustment .

Hi Bushchook,

thanks for the info buddy! I already found out where to order a Sako set trigger. I even found a gunsmith who claims that he can tune the single stage trigger (the normal plus the set trigger unset) down to a SAFE 500gram (~17 ounces). This would be all I need! Other gunsmiths call this guy BS but he is a benchrest worldchampion so I guess he knows what he is doing...

Thanks for the hint, good hunting,

elwood.

quote:

Originally posted by wirehunt:
Elwood
I've got a s/s Sako, there's one part in the gut's of the bolt that rusts, found out after my rifle went for a wee swim without me. Got home a week later and stripped the rifle because of the swim, while I was cleaning I thought hmm I wonder so stripped the bolt and there it was, nothing major but a bit of surface rust. You can't make spring's out of stainless. A very light oily rag had it fixed in no time.

Stephen

Who told you that you can’t make springs from stainless steel?

quote:

Originally posted by elwood:
I even found a gunsmith who claims that he can tune the single stage trigger (the normal plus the set trigger unset) down to a SAFE 500gram (~17 ounces). This would be all I need! Other gunsmiths call this guy BS but he is a benchrest worldchampion so I guess he knows what he is doing...
elwood.

Elwood, I could use a contact to that smith, please. Either post, PM or mail me (my mail address is in my personal profile - click on my alias), please??

I have a Sako L461 in .222 Rem, on which I would just LOVE to get the trigger down to about 600 grs or so. I promise I'll let your jobs be finished before mine

- mike

quote:

Originally posted by elwood:
Hi Bushchook,

thanks for the info buddy! I already found out where to order a Sako set trigger. I even found a gunsmith who claims that he can tune the single stage trigger (the normal plus the set trigger unset) down to a SAFE 500gram (~17 ounces). This would be all I need! Other gunsmiths call this guy BS but he is a benchrest worldchampion so I guess he knows what he is doing...

Thanks for the hint, good hunting,

elwood.

Nothing against your guy...but your logic would assume that because he is a good shooter that he is also a good gunsmith. I personally know a couple of NASCAR drivers that couldn’t change a spark plug if their life depended on it.

mho,

you've got mail!

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:

quote:

Originally posted by elwood:
Hi Bushchook,

thanks for the info buddy! I already found out where to order a Sako set trigger. I even found a gunsmith who claims that he can tune the single stage trigger (the normal plus the set trigger unset) down to a SAFE 500gram (~17 ounces). This would be all I need! Other gunsmiths call this guy BS but he is a benchrest worldchampion so I guess he knows what he is doing...

Thanks for the hint, good hunting,

elwood.

Nothing against your guy...but your logic would assume that because he is a good shooter that he is also a good gunsmith. I personally know a couple of NASCAR drivers that couldn’t change a spark plug if their life depended on it.

Hi Rick,

good point my friend!

But in this case the logic applies 100%! This guy builds the weapons he (and others) win championships with himself...

But then again I have not had him do any job for me so far, well, I shall see.

Cheers,

elwood.

Got the mail Elwood, you are acting in the best AR tradition. Thanks for that my friend!
- mike

With all due respect to Sako's (I have several actions in the white and waiting and one in 6.5-06AI with a PacNor tube and HS Precision stock) but the rem700 with a good jewell, shilen, rifle basix, etc trigger can be tuned by the owner without the money spent at the gunsmith and very little time. All leftover funds between the purchase price will allow more money for barrels and glass etc with the rem700.

I locked up my 1000yd BR rifle in 300RUM in 95* heat and had to BEAT the bolt handle open. It removed the round just fine and the bolt handle is fine as well. This rifle is built on the SUPPOSEDLY softer stainless 700action. I have had no gauling because I am smart enough to know that ANY lapped lug needs to have lug grease on it!!!!!!! most common reason for gauling is LAZINESS!!

don't get me wrong, I like my sako's,..but day-in and day-out, a trued up rem700 with aftermarket trigger will run with the best rifles made and most of the time for less money. YMMV

quote:

Originally posted by JustC:
With all due respect to Sako's (I have several actions in the white and waiting

Hi JustC,

what action types are they? Do you have one in stainless as well? Do you sell any? Or can you name your source where you bought the actions?

I am desperate for a Sako 75 III Stainless right hand action...

Cheers,

elwood.

@ mho:
Received your email. Thank you very much for your kind words - you are very welcome. After all that's what this forum is for right?!

Check your mail,

elwood.