The Accurate Reloading Forums
Why don't they build Aluminum barrels?
27 January 2010, 21:18
MRAMSAY10Why don't they build Aluminum barrels?
You see how they take a steel blank and make it as thin as possible and wrap it in carbon fiber. Why don't they do this with aluminum for weight loss?
27 January 2010, 21:22
jeffeossothey do, for pistols ...
27 January 2010, 22:54
MikeMichalskiSeems to me they (Winchester I believe) did it to a shotgun barrel. Very light, yes; too light to balance or shoot smoothly, definitely.
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27 January 2010, 23:11
tiggertateI know diddly about reinforcing strength of aluminum but I did stay in a Holiday Inn once. The expansion differences when going from cold to hot may make it difficult to sheath a steel insert with complex contours, plus the machining required to match the two parts would be steep. The aluminum clad pistol barrels are (a) very low pressure relative to a rifle barrel and (b) straight tubes with no contours to match.
"Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson.
27 January 2010, 23:15
congomikeMikeMichalski:
I think you are talking about the Winchester Model 59. It was actually a very thin steel liner wrapped in a fiberglass coating. I think it was string that was then heated and fused to the liner. I can't remember the exact length of the string/cord, but it was substantial.
27 January 2010, 23:16
DavidReedquote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:
they do, for pistols ...
Which Pistols are manufactured with aluminum barrels? I don't doubt that there are any, I don't know of any though.
27 January 2010, 23:47
DavidReedFor the original question. When compared to steel the tensile strength of most aluminum alloys varies dramatically as temperature changes. Most loose strength as temperature increases and the combination of heat, pressure and abrasion generated by a centerfire rifle cartridge is probably too much for most aluminum alloys that would be economic to use for a gun barrel.
27 January 2010, 23:48
Traxquote:
Originally posted by MRAMSAY10:
You see how they take a steel blank and make it as thin as possible and wrap it in carbon fiber. Why don't they do this with aluminum for weight loss?
http://www.lothar-walther.com/396.php27 January 2010, 23:51
tiggertatequote:
Originally posted by DavidReed:
quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:
they do, for pistols ...
Which Pistols are manufactured with aluminum barrels? I don't doubt that there are any, I don't know of any though.
Jeff and I interpreted the original question as meaning steel liners overlayed with aluminum jackets instead of carbon fiber, not all-aluminum barrels or aluminum liners. S&W has several revolvers manufactured this way.
"Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson.
27 January 2010, 23:53
tiggertatequote:
Originally posted by Trax:
quote:
Originally posted by MRAMSAY10:
You see how they take a steel blank and make it as thin as possible and wrap it in carbon fiber. Why don't they do this with aluminum for weight loss?
http://www.lothar-walther.com/396.php
That's pretty cool but like I feared, it don't look cheap. Especially when they want you contact a specialist in building rifles with them.
"Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson.
28 January 2010, 00:00
DavidReedI'm aware of those and have owned one or two. They actually work pretty well. But I don't know of any barrel that is solely constructed of or uses aluminum as a liner where the contact surface with the bullet is aluminum. At least thats how I understood MRAMSAY10's question.
That LW barrel is pretty cool.
28 January 2010, 00:06
ray in seattleWhistle Pig Barrel Co. makes aluminum Ruger 10/22 steel lined barrels, if you have ever gone to RFC, the Banner Rifle on the left is sporting such barrel (formerly my rifle, then sold). Might be an application for the 10/22 conceived "Charger" pistol.....r in s.
28 January 2010, 00:35
CustomstoxThey don't do it because of the vicious cycle you would get int. Go to the range, sight in the gun, go to your gunsmith to have the worn out barrel replaced and start the process over.
28 January 2010, 01:34
richjFalcon made Hi-Standard barrels in Alum with Steel liners.
28 January 2010, 02:19
impingementI have two original Charter Arms AR7s (22LR) that have steel lined aluminum body barrels. The later version made by Henry has a steel liner in a plastic body on the one I have seen. I also recall there were some other very low pressure cartridges this configuration was used for but the actual application escapes me at the moment
28 January 2010, 02:29
kcstottAlong with the above mentioned problems you also run into Bluing, painting, or anodizing issues.
You can't blue aluminum so that's out. Paint sucks but maybe on a low end gun you could get away with it. But Anodizing is the best for the aluminum but the steel would not survive the trip through the bath.
So now you have a ultra light barrel that has dissimilar metals that expand at different rates and don't have the same tensile or yield strengths that need a coloring coating of some sort to protect them from the elements.??????
Just turn a light weight contour stainless barrel and be done.
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28 January 2010, 07:25
MRAMSAY10Good points. Thats why I asked. THanks guys
28 January 2010, 11:24
tin canquote:
Originally posted by congomike:
MikeMichalski:
I think you are talking about the Winchester Model 59. It was actually a very thin steel liner wrapped in a fiberglass coating. I think it was string that was then heated and fused to the liner. I can't remember the exact length of the string/cord, but it was substantial.
process known as "auto frettage", IIRC
28 January 2010, 11:37
Bryan27I have a Sako Quad with a Superior Tactical Solutions 22mag barrel that is aluminum with steel liner. I like it, but they aren't cheap. Really though, I don't think that aluminum contributes anything benificial to the barrel other than looking cool and lite weight for its size. Carbon fiber at least is stronger than the steel it wraps and disburses the heat more efficiently if I'm remembering correctly.
28 January 2010, 18:36
kcstottIncorrect on carbon fiber heat conductivity.
Carbon fiber actually acts like insulation. compared to steel. Very poor conductor of heat.
But in the correct application it is far stronger and considerably lighter then steel.
FYI most of the previous posts are concerned with center fire cartridges not rim fire. The lack of pressure and heat in a rim fire allow a lot of latitude in barrel design.
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28 January 2010, 19:20
Traxquote:
Incorrect on carbon fiber heat conductivity.
Carbon fiber actually acts like insulation. compared to steel. Very poor conductor of heat.....
that depends,
not all carbon wraps are the same.
go big or go home ........
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28 January 2010, 19:57
MFDTin Can was wondering about the amount/length of string/fiber on such barrels and several years ago when Remington introduced their carbon fiber wrapped Mod.700 I read that there was a million miles of such thread!! Seems impossible, but also the same test revealed that the dispersal of heat was much better than std. steel barrels. Can't remember the exact data, but after several rounds of one vs normal barrel, the difference in measured temperature was significant. The rifles did not stay on the market for very long.
29 January 2010, 06:58
butchlambertI have 5 all aluminum pistols. Paintball guns!!
Kstott is right on the carbon fiber vwrap.
Butch
29 January 2010, 08:28
kcstottIf you read the page that was posted ABS claims that heat is only conducted inline with the fibers of the wrap. And the heat will not jump from one fiber to the next. They said it was just like how fiber optics transmits light along it's axis. But yet the claim higher coefficient of thermal conductivity (their words not mine) and yet wrap the barrels just as composite pipe is made.
I'll wait till Doc chimes in as I don't know enough about composites to say for sure if I'm right or wrong But I feel that Carbon fiber is still a great insulator and by default not a good conductor
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30 January 2010, 17:39
dan_ozI can't see that there'd be any benefit. Aluminium is slightly less stiff than steel per unit weight, so any saving in the weight of the barrel would come at the cost of a loss of stiffness - though there'd be some offsetting in second moment of area due to the lower SG I guess.
Carbon fibre in contrast is several times stiffer per unit weight, so you can reduce barrel weight significantly compared to a simple steel barrel without loss of stiffness or, for the same weight as a given steel barrel have a carbon-wrapped one which is far stiffer.