Some years ago I tried very hard to like the Model 70. I picked up a late '50s action for about $400. I ended up selling it after I compared it to the various 98 offerings that abound.

I put the Model 70 in the same category as Rugers. Nice try, but the apple has fallen too far from the tree. If you call them a Mauser derivative, you have to say the same about every two-lug turnbolt made since 1898. You can trace their lineage back that far, but everything since 1903 has been a cost-cutting letdown.

From a practical point of view, if you are dead-set on using a Model 70, then the pre-64 seems to retain its value in a custom rifle much better than the other Winchester offerings.

On a side note, Ackley and Weatherby were just stroking the American ego for bigger, faster, shinier things. The rest of the shooting world knows that every necessary cartridge had already been developed by the end of WWI.

This got e-mailed to me while typing this. I have to share it.

Well, without arguing about Ackley with the people on this forum who know more about his work than I do, I can tell you that when a couple of years ago at the Denver show I came across a Sharps Borchardt with a barrel marked PO Ackley .30-40 I grabbed it. His name on a barrel or on a custom rifle is still a plus.

Lest any of you "gunsmithing" types and Rifle afficianados might become unduly influenced by the baseless blatherings of "lukewarm core" and another "expert" or two on this thread - let me point out some facts that "lukewarm core" and the other expert seem to be unable to contemplate!
First of all the pre-64 Winchester Model 70 action is the safest, strongest and most admired factory bolt action EVER made! Yes the reasons are legion why it commands the name "Riflemans Rifle"! Shortly I will point some of these reasons out!
But first I must join the chorus and inquire of the "blinded by his own light" "lukewarm core" just which factory bolt action is safer, stronger, has a better feeding system, has a better extraction system, is made of better materials, has a better trigger or trigger adjusting system, has smoother operations, has faster lock time, has a stronger receiver, has a more functional recoil lug and action screw system, has a better ejection system, and which action feeds more reliably? And which factory bolt action combines features that surpasses the pre-64 Model 70 actions attributes and while doing so is more handsome and attractive at the same time? I will save the self serving expert "lukewarm core" from any further stress on the few brain cells he has left and answer the question for him - there is none!
Your attempted derision of the fine and safe Winchester pre-64 Model 70 action is specious (without merit) and futile and your continued feeble attempts at this derision simply stands to only further detract from you "lukewarm core"! And by the way your esteem simply can not get any lower - no matter how hard you try!
By the way "unwarm bore" one other of your ilk in trying to deride the fine Winchester pre-64 Model 70's made this glaring error. In attempting to besmirch his own fathers fine Rifle he alluded to the fact that his fathers Winchester pre-64 Model 70 Featherweight Rifle had an ineffective barrel tension screw! That expert should at least make reference to a good book on Winchester Model 70's as the Featherweight pre-64 Winchester Model 70's had NO barrel screws!
You blowhard "bashers" are a never ending source of laughs for me!
I, in a perverse way get the greatest satisfaction out of observing the absolute stupididty that you gush forth with, on so many occassions!
I just wonder to myself why these fine Winchester pre-64 Model 70's have served me so well over the last 40+ years in the Hunting arena from Alaska and Canada down to Utah and so many places in between? And over the same length of time at Rifle ranges galore? Let alone the extensive use I have put so many Winchester pre-64 Model 70's to gratifying usages all over western North America Hunting Varmints - literally year around? Never a failure OF ANY SORT from any of these fine and safe Rifles I have put to sometimes difficult usages!
Hmmm... maybe I am using a DIFFERENT arsenal full of Winchester pre-64 Model 70's than the died in the wool blowhard and basher "cold core" is familiar with! Aaah now maybe I have hit on another aspect of his delusionment! He (and obviously others) does not like, admire, or condone these fine Winchester pre-64 Model 70's - ergo - he in fact does not use them and has no experience with them!!!
I wonder also which Rifle these "bashers" take to their respective ranges and competitions and while there, receive more offers to buy those Rifles from the folks attending these places?
I have never EVER had anyone make a spontaneous and unsolicited offer to buy ANY other brand of Rifle I have ever been in public with!
I can though recall many dozens of occassions people have seen me in public (whether afield or at a range) with one of my many Winchester pre-64 Model 70's and they approach me and inquire if said Rifle is for sale or they flat out offer to buy them!
I also am still waiting for "cool snore" to come up with some plausible reason why so many exquisitely made custom Rifles are based on (you guessed it!) the fine and beautiful Winchester pre-64 Model 70 actions? Yeah in "cold snots" mind those folks that invest THOUSANDS of dollars in engravings and inlays on an action want to spend that money on an action "that is sure to blow up"! Yeah right - LOL!
I think I may have to wait some time longer for "drool dorf" to answer that question also. I think I have been waiting three or four years for his answer!
I ask it again here and now just for the record and for the self evident proof of his lack of credibility in not answering that simple question! Why do so many folks wanting a fine custom Rifle be made for them prefer to use the "Riflemans Rifle" actions - the Winchester pre-64 Model 70's?
I am sure he won't ever be able to answer that often posed question!
Quite a few years ago I had another custom Rifle made on the fine, strong, safe and reliable Winchester pre-64 Model 70 action. I found an action that was made the same month that I was born (July of 1947) and I had it barreled in caliber 280 Remington. I already owned many 270 Winchesters in factory Model 70 configurations.
The custom 280 has Hunted all across the west and has taken all manner of Big Game from Mt. Goats to Antelope and Blacktailed Deer to Whitetailed Deer. It has also accounted for Black Bear, Elk and a slew of Mule Deer!
This Rifle simply is close to perfection! I have used it EXTENSIVELY and can find no fault with it WHAT SO EVER! The trigger is wonderful, the feeding is absolute and smooth as glass! The safety is without doubt the most positive and SAFEST system ever devised! It holds 6 rounds of ammunition! It is beautiful and sleek! The actions strength aids in providing wonderful and consistent accuracy!
And again it is without peer when it comes to aesthetics! Pride of ownership is a frequent and valid reason for buying and continuing to own a Winchester pre-64 Modle 70!
I also wonder why over the many decades from the mid-late 1930's (1936 to be exact) on why so many high power and long range target shooters used (preferred!) the Winchester pre-64 Model 70 for their disciplines? Hmmm... like I say maybe "old bore" has had his extensive "experiences" with a different Winchester pre-64 Model 70 than so many thousands of others have? Oh I almost forgot - he does not like them so I am sure he has never spent his hard earned money for them to begin with!
Which brings me to one of my last points - with which I will at this time further trundle good old "on hold, bore" with!
I have been collecting and studying Winchester pre-64 Model 70's for more than 40 years now! The first Model 70 I bought cost me $170.00 and some years back I turned down $1,500.00 for it! Now I have bought and sold probably 200 of these fine arms over the years (not counting the many Model 70's I chose to keep in my permanent collection!) and I have always made money selling them! ALWAYS! I have never lost a cent in this ongoing endeavour! In fact I can not recall any factory firearm that COMMANDS more interest, scrutiny and excitement than a Winchester pre-64 Model 70 among the "gun cranks"!
I have attended and participated, literally, more than a thousand Gunshows and perused many thousands of Gunstores throughout the west (and in Canada) and dealt in all manner of arms while therein - but nothing comes even close to the universal admiration and active interest in a nice old Winchester pre-64 Model 70!
In short no other arm that I am aware of is as easy to resell than a Winchester pre-64 Model 70 in fair+ condition!
To state otherwise is simply a flight of fancy!
The ONLY person with less intellect and less common sense than our friend "cold sore" and, is LESS qualified to comment on these fine Rifles is the factory wingnut and pencil pusher that made the decision to discontinue the Winchester pre-64 Model 70! At least that factory dingleberry quickly realized his "mistake"! I fear that the reality he quickly and sadly acknowledged is just passing the typical, contrary type, Model 70 bashers by!
Long live the fine, safe, strong, accurate, beautiful and reliable Winchester pre-64 Model 70's!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VarmintGuy

Well someone likes 'em because there are a couple of standard old Pre 64 Super Grades 375s for sale at $4000US and Winchesters current top rifle from their Custom Shop is only $4600

Mike

KurtC: I see you need to be held to account also!
Are you in some way, in your mental process, deriding the Winchester pre-64 Model 70 actions because of what they are called? Your post is unclear and confusing.
Does the name "mauser derivative" some how demean or imply some built-in fallability with the Winchester pre-64 Model 70 action?
For YOU to compare the fine Winchester pre-64 Model 70 action (or Rifle!) with a Ruger (I assume you are referencing the Model 77?) is simply blather of the most in-effective type!
I own several Ruger Model 77's and ANY comparison of quality or of function and aesthetics with the Winchester pre-64 Model 70 is like comparing apples to watermelons!
Off base and unreasonable!
As is your comparison of the fine Model 70 with ANY Mauser action!
I see, in the Big Game fields, Varmint fields and competions of western North America more Model 70's in use than any of the Mauser 98's!
One only has to have experience with the Model 70 to know why this preference is so evident!
I implore you to give these fine actions another try.
I can not guess why (AND you do not state why!) you were not happy with the Winchester pre-64 Model 70 action you bought!
And you do not state what use (if any?) you tried to put that action to use for! So I can not, as yet BLOW YOUR BLATHERINGS out of the water specifically - point by point - because you MAKE NO POINTS!
This type of ambiguous blather is commonly referred to as "bashing"! Or in other words trying to impune something or someone without being specific!
I do not appreciate bashing of the fine Winchester pre-64 Model 70 actions (or Rifles) so I am going to try and get specifics from you or I will simply disregard your "bashing" attempt (as feeble as it was!).
If you care to be more specific in your... uhhh... "dis-satisfaction" with the Winchester pre-64 Model 70 action I will gladly engage you.
Til then you are in the same "boat" as other lack luster "bashers" like cold sore!
Long live the strong, beautiful, safe and "CLASSY" Riflemans Rifle - the Winchester pre-64 Model 70!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Most high dollar Custom Rifles are made on Mauser actions and pre 64 actions or knockoffs ot these, that says something...

All my rifles are pre 64 or 98 Mausers, I would have no other.

Well, that about says what most people who actually hunt game other than semi-tame plantation/farm Whitetail Deer in a suburban setting think. I can own any rifle I want to and I have spent most of my life in Grizzly country; after using almost everything available, including trying out Champlins, Holland & Holland Mausers, Geo. Gibbs Lee-Speeds and various combination guns, my opinion might actually be worth something......at least to those that are interested in rifles, not neurotic self glorification.

Where factory rifles are concerned, there are four that I consider to be the best for serious work in real wilderness, big game country. These are the Pre-64 Mod. 70, the Brno-21H, the Brno-ZG-47 and the FN Deluxe and Supreme sporters along with the Husqvarna, Sako, Colt and so forth factory rifles built on those actions.

For belted cartridges, I prefer the 70 over anything else, w/o exception and the finest rifle of the foregoing is/was the Brno-ZG-57, followed by the early FN C-ring actions. I base this on the functional aspects and performance of these along with the quality of manufacture, this as they came from the factory. The problem is that there were only about 45,000 21H and about 21,000 ZG-47 rifles made; this means that they are not readily available to most people.

Anyone can nitpick, but, as I also noted the reference to the "screw" in FWT 70s, I tend to ignore the bullshit that emanates from those whose actual experience is minimal, or non-existant.

Varmint.....you should have kept every one of those 70s and should move to B.C. with the entire lot of them; then, become my next door neighbour and I will help "look after" them!

WestCoaster: Have no fear! In specific, yes - the writer you were exposed to is full of B.S.!
I have a number of custom Rifles built on Winchester pre-64 Model 70 actions! They perform flawlessly and are safe, reliable, smooth, and the most positive feeding Rifles imagineable!
And they are SAFE!
The safeties are virtually immune from accidental movement and are positive in their function! I also have quite a number of friends who have made custom Rifles on Winchester pre-64 Model 70 actions. These Rifles are for Big Game Hunting, Varmint Hunting and various types of Rifle competitions. I have never had any of my friends decry their choice of the Winchester pre-64 Model 70 action as the basis for their custom Rifle! This blanket statement can not be made for literally every other type action out there! I and my firends have all had the occassional "clunker" (poor performing Rifle) outcome when trying to put these "other" actions to customized use! Especially when the Mausers were tried! This "money saving" use of a Mauser action often produces problems that "custom Rifles" are supposed to prevent!
Among other calibers, I have custom Rifles built on Winchester pre-64 Model 70 actions in calibers 243 Winchester, 240 Weatherby and 280 Remington. I would categorize the accuracy of these calibered customs as "splendid"! Again, the functioning of these Rifles is flawless.
I whole heartidly endorse your going ahead with the custom Rifle project you had in mind with the Winchester pre-64 Model 70 action! If you use a reputable and experienced Riflesmith for your work I am quite certain you will be happy with the outcome!
You will have a beautiful, safe, reliable and smooth functioning Rifle on your hands once your project is complete!
One you will have great pride in owning and using.
Good luck with your project!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

The original question dealt with the quality of a raw Model 70 action. It had nothing to do with complete rifles, accuracy, cartridges, factory models, gunsmiths, gunwriters, etc, etc.

My opinion of rifle actions is based purely on design, everything after that is a variable that can be changed according to desire.

The model 70 traces its lineage to the model 54, then to the 1903, and eventually to the mauser 98. With each model, more and more of Mauser's original design has been eliminated until we are left with a version that has absolutely nothing in common with the 98, other than 2 locking lugs. The gas venting features and self locking extractor were eliminated from the bolt. The safety was reversed, then completely put on the wrong side. Even the easy to replace ejector/bolt stop was changed to an internal 2-piece model. I view all of these changes to be failures, not improvements.

The 1950 FN, Brno 21/22, ZG47, and a few others fit into the category of properly designed commercial actions. All other actions fall into the other category: Nice tries.

Sure, you can build a fully functional, aesthetically pleasing, safe and accurate rifle using a model 70 action. But you can also do that with a 77 or 700. The soul of an action lies in its design quality, not in the quality of a completed rifle.

quote:

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Originally posted by KurtC:
The original question dealt with the quality of a raw Model 70 action.

Sure, you can build a fully functional, aesthetically pleasing, safe and accurate rifle using a model 70 action. But you can also do that with a 77 or 700. The soul of an action lies in its design quality, not in the quality of a completed rifle.

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Sorry Guys but I have to agree with KurtC.
The soul of an action lies in its design quality, not in the quality of a completed rifle.

That's why I choose a Pre 64 M70.

bigbull

Kutenay
What a guy!
Always the first with a kind offer, you'll help look after his Mod 70's. Who else woulda thought of that? Oh well guess you beat me to that one.
Fear not guys I believe I have been turned from the darkside and me and my new aquisition will be getting aquainted shortly.
Your soon to be Pre 64 Mod 70 fan.

for some reason I get the imression that VarmintGuy likies the pre64 and KurtC does not !!!!!!!!!!!!

Just to throw one more skunk on this woodpile, it's worth noting that, for at least four decades, the Pre-64 model 70 was - and for many is still - the preferred action for NRA highpower rifle competition. It has been thus not because the M70 was esthetically more pleasing than others (although it was), or that it is superior in design and workmanship to others (although it was).

No, the M70 has been preferred over all others simply because it worked the best. Until recently it was the fastest bolt gun, shot to shot, of any design capable of extreme precision. It was also utterly reliable.

And it remains the choice of many competitors, even in this day of the now superbly accurate M16 and its match rifle derivatives, and the 'spacegun' designs of which the Tubb 2000 is emblematic.

Given a good barrel, a Pre-64 can churn out string after string of rapid and timed fire with 1/2 minute precision. Then, while still hot and fouled from all this abuse, it can drive most of 20 rounds into the 'x' ring at 600 yards using aperture sights - if we can hold hard and dope the wind, that is. And it will continue doing this for literally tens of thousands of rounds without complaint.

Show me *any* production bolt action that can equal this performance. We have all seen the occasional Remington, Springfield, Mauser etc. used as the basis for a match rifle. But has anyone ever seen one win? Or has anyone even seen one in the hands of a High Master? And don't even think about your Rugers, let alone any of the Chinese golden-whatevers.

The Post-64 M70 is the only conventional bolt action that can stand in the Highpower ring... but has anyone ever seen a bolt handle come flying off a Post-64 action during a rapid fire string? Not pretty! An extractor override on the push-feed action? A broken extractor on the 'classic' Post-64 action? Ditto. Yes, many use the Post-64 action and win with them. But was it a first choice, or a compromise?

Admittedly, my experience in these matters is now somewhat dated. And the advent of improved action designs is, to this old rifleman, anyhow, most gratifying. After all, who among us can take satisfaction in seeing an 80-year old design repesent the best that can be achieved - in anything? (And please don't snipe at me with your M2 Browning - it's needed elsewhere at the moment.)

But I'll tell you what: If the old Pre-64 Model 70 can accomplish everthing it has done on the Highpower range, it will sure as hell do quite nicely as our deer rifle - even if it is a high five-figures bespoke piece having all the bells and whistles the ACGG can bestow. In fact, if it does receive the full treatment, so much the better - a Pre-64 Model 70 certainly deserves it.

Jim

Meplat makes what may be the decisive point in this discussion, the decades long dominance of the pre64 in high power competition, only now being elided by the gas guns and the semi auto. The reasons are basically three: (1) an immensely stiff receiver with deep side rails (2) the arrangement whereby the front guard screw comes up into a flat, permitting solid bedding both in front of and behind the guard screw, and (3) a superb trigger. The last two points mark its superiority over the 54, which uses the same receiver forging, and all three beat the 1903 and the 1898. The Remington 721 and its later derivatives with tubular receivers may be even stiffer and have good triggers, have great intrinsic accuracy maybe even better than a pre64, but the extraction arrangement is not as completely reliable and they are not as easily manipulatable in rapid fire. So the old klunker notwithstanding its soso gas handling still rules supreme among the convential bolt actions. Long may it reign!!

VarmintGuy
This Rifle simply is close to perfection!

This statement is close to being true.

I have used it EXTENSIVELY and can find no fault with it WHAT SO EVER!

This statement is not. If you can't fault the gas handling system of these actions then you have your eyes closed. It is far from being a perfect system. The shortcoming of it is REAL and not perceived.

Let me get this straight - you guys are telling us that the much revered Pre 64 Model 70 has a defective gas system??

It is not defective. Like the extractor and ejector, it is just not as good as it could have been.

In 1903 Springfield Armory had to make numerous changes to the 98 in order to avoid having to pay Mauser high royalties. By the time Winchester came out with 70, they could have copied these same features without paying the royalties. Instead they chose to continue the 54 and 1903 design, since the machinery was already set up for it.

Again, the design is not defective, it is just disappointing as it could have been much better.

quote:

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Originally posted by MLG:
Let me get this straight - you guys are telling us that the much revered Pre 64 Model 70 has a defective gas system??

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If that's a serious question, then the serious answer is.....gas handling is a weakness of the action.

All the knowledgable posters in this thread acknowledged such.

There are relatively simple cures......manufacturer initiated.....and after-market.

GV

Kurt and grandview

Many thanks for explaining things better than I did.

Kurt summed it up perfectly when he said "It is not defective. it is just not as good as it could have been".

To me this constitutes a fault in the action. It doesn't keep me from owning one but I do fault Winchester to a degree for not trying to improve the system until the "Classic" lineup came out.

I used to own a P.O. Ackley custom mauser 98 in It was the kind of custom job that the corner gunsmith would do, not a fine masterpiece like we see from Heilman, Echols, Breeding, Fisher, etc. Also, the accuracy of my Ackley was poor.

The strong point of Ackley was his experimentation. Many of the so-called new cartridges today are just variations of what Mr. Ackley did decades ago.

The pre-64 Winchester Model 70 is a fine action, for sure. However, just to stir the guys up...I think the Very Best action ever designed (American) is the 1st model
Newton Action. Reasons: It also had the first 3 position safety but was neater than
Winchester's & in a vertical setting, not horizontal. The interrupted screw buttress
type locking locks was an idea from heavy artillery gun lock ups & had about 3 times the locking area of a typical 2 lug action (Winchester Model 70, Remington,etc.)
Receiver was made of chrome-vanadium steel...same type as truck axles...high strength,
but good elasticity so not brittle. The follower was designed that when chambering a
round from the magazine, it went straight & flat just before entering the chamber so the bullet point didn't have to bump on the forcing cone, or anything else. This was so the soft point bullets wouldn't be deformed...feels like a Swiss Watch when operating.
The use of the interrupted screw locking lugs with 3X area & holding strength were made
shallower so the receiver was slimmer. It also used a claw extractor, Mauser style.
It had flats atop the receiver so scope mounts could be easily mounted..a la square bridge Mauser.. Its about a slim, modern receiver as has ever been made..I can't think of any today that compares. It used a failsafe double set trigger system that
was original design that wasn't fragile or complex. Nothing goes wrong, is also simple to adjust for let off with a simple 1/4 inch head screw between the triggers.
I think Winchester copied the 3 position safety system, the floorplate catch (same)
and Weatherby the multilug bolt type.
But I can't think of a better action. My 2nd choice is the Belgian FN Mauser, modern
type. Winchester pre 64 is a fine action...my only criticism would be too much metal & weight...
Of course, I have Newton Rifles...so can beat the drum! Newtons also varied in quality, but the first ones were unequalled...
Best Wishes, Tom

Varmint Guy, Meplat & others...Where do you think the Model 54, then Model 70 Winchester designs came from? A pure, original concept from Winchester?
I think not. There were a lot of copycat ideas
throughout rifledom...the Springfield Rifle came about due to the US being tromped in the Spanish American War with the 7x57 Mausers...led to the push to develop the Springfield & with the Mauser type bolt, paid royalties to Mauser.
Likewise, the Winchester Model 70. Ideas for that were taken off the Newton design...the 3 position safety type, floorplate release...even todays lightweight stock design are oh so much like the early Newtons. And they all go way back to the Mauser bolt type...so the question is who came first? Winchester came up with the Model 70 with a lot of borrowed ideas...and the Mauser claw extractor bolt action is the basis.
A good design, but taken from older designe & ideas. What is original? Its a Mauser type, Newton ideas...put together & made a nice rifle.
But you can't act like it was completely new off the drawing board! Not!
Best Regards, Tom

As far as I am concerned Pre 64, Post 64 PF and Post 64 CRF all have one common good feature that makes then the star and the Mauser junk.

Bedding configuration.

Mike

quote:

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Originally posted by bisonland:<snip>

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whoa... sounds like a great action.

Humm... I googled for it and can't find much info or pics...

quote:

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Originally posted by Iron Buck:
THe other problem with the _Pre-64s_ is that there was a reason the _post 64_came about. The machinery used to make them in the 60s was so bad that the parts had to be shod togther. Making the 60s examples of the pre-64 spotty in the quality department. Something to think about before you take the plunge. Not all pre-64s are what they are hyped up to be.

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Bumpkiss!!!! The reason the post-64 was developed was because it was too labor intensive and expensive to produce compared to the Remingtons of the era. Some actions were flawed I agree, Some were to hard, the gas handeling was not exellent. It is still one of the hottest selling items in a gun show. I have 12-14 actions in my safe and many more custom rifles as well as originals. They can not be beat. I have both a mint remington 375 H&H and a Mint Pre-64 375 H&H the price difference between them is roughly $1500.00. So I guess the Winchester is truely junk!!!!!

To Stryker 225: Hard to find: Newton Rifles or actions...most made around 1918...only about 4,000 of the 1st model. Occasionally some turn up on
'gunbroker.com' or 'auction arms'. There is also some of a collection being sold off. A 'modern'
reference with some photos are in Frank DeHaas
Book: "The Bolt Action Rifle" & a good review.
I've, at one time owned about every bolt action made...and the Newton is still tops. Contact me via private message if you want more info...
Best Regards, Tom

Hey! You Winchester model 70, pre-64 lovers...take a look at the finest example of a
custom .375 Model 70 (1960 vintage) built by Pachymar way back.
Look at it: www.gunbroker.com (item 28326720)
This is not an ad or solicitation...just a point of interest...its the finest
Model 70 example I'd ever handled or seen...custom, but Winchester pre-64
barreled action, tuned up. Slick as a Mannlicher action in smoothness.

Best Regards, Tom

quote:

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Originally posted by meplat:
Just to throw one more skunk on this woodpile, it's worth noting that, for at least four decades, the Pre-64 model 70 was - and for many is still - the preferred action for NRA highpower rifle competition.

No, the M70 has been preferred over all others simply because it _worked_ the best. Until recently it was the fastest bolt gun, shot to shot, of any design capable of extreme precision. It was also utterly reliable.

And it remains the choice of many competitors, even in this day of the now superbly accurate M16 and its match rifle derivatives, and the 'spacegun' designs of which the Tubb 2000 is emblematic.

Given a good barrel, a Pre-64 can churn out string after string of rapid and timed fire with 1/2 minute precision. Then, while still hot and fouled from all this abuse, it can drive most of 20 rounds into the 'x' ring at 600 yards using aperture sights - if we can hold hard and dope the wind, that is. And it will continue doing this for literally tens of thousands of rounds without complaint.

Show me *any* production bolt action that can equal this performance. We have all seen the occasional Remington, Springfield, Mauser etc. used as the basis for a match rifle. But has anyone ever seen one win? Or has anyone even seen one in the hands of a High Master? And don't even think about your Rugers, let alone any of the Chinese golden-whatevers.


But I'll tell you what: If the old Pre-64 Model 70 can accomplish everthing it has done on the Highpower range, it will sure as hell do quite nicely as our deer rifle - even if it is a high five-figures bespoke piece having all the bells and whistles the ACGG can bestow. In fact, if it _does_ receive the full treatment, so much the better - a Pre-64 Model 70 certainly deserves it.

Jim

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Couldn't agree more, Jim.

I have personally put over 18,000 rounds through my number one match rifle, a P64 mod 70 30-06 without repalcement of a single part (other than barrels). While I can't tell you how many "rounds" I have "dry-fired", would guestimate at least twice that many.

My #2 pre-64 only has 10,000 rounds + dry-fire through it and it is only on the 2nd barrel, but has been equally reliable, requiring no parts replacement.

These two actions have served me well; Winchester must have done something right! The following 3" spotter reveals 14 consecutive shots from prone @ 600 yds w/irons.



Own several other P64 hunting rifles but none have or will ever have the use/abuse that the two NRA guns have survived. Have also tried both 40XC and post 64 winchesters and neither were as reliable feeding as was the pre-64.

Regards,
hm

quote:

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Originally posted by bisonland:
To Stryker 225: Hard to find: Newton Rifles or actions...most made around 1918...only about 4,000 of the 1st model. Occasionally some turn up on
'gunbroker.com' or 'auction arms'. There is also some of a collection being sold off. A 'modern'
reference with some photos are in Frank DeHaas
Book: "The Bolt Action Rifle" & a good review.
I've, at one time owned about every bolt action made...and the Newton is still tops. Contact me via private message if you want more info...
Best Regards, Tom

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oh... heheh I can only afford to drool and wonder for now.

Really interesting though, thanks!

I am old enough to have owned several of them when they were nothing special. To me they are still the same. Nothing special. I have had dozens of rifles that were equal in every way that matters like strength and accuracy and reliability. Over priced big time nowadays. One good thing for the guys that like them though, I won't be bidding against them if one is for sale.

quote:

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Originally posted by hm1996: The following 3" spotter reveals 14 consecutive shots from prone @ 600 yds w/irons.

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That's a pretty group, hm! Don't you fellows pull the spotter when the X's begin to come in one on top of the other? They do make small spotters still, dont'they? My club used to make the guys pay for 'em when they got shot up like that!

(Uhh... should I ask what happened to the other six?)

Your experience with longevity of the Pre-64 action is typical. Roy Dunlap once wrote a gunsmithing article describing how to shorten a M70 action by 1/2 inch. (This was before the 'short' post-64 action came on the scene.) He said he used one of his highpower actions that had "finally worn out", or words to that effect. He didn't say just what was worn out about it, which I recall being something of a head-scratcher.

At the time I thought it interesting that he intended to take this worn out shortened action and put it on a custom varmint rifle - 22-250 I think - for a customer. "Worn out" indeed!

I believe the article was in an early edition of RIFLE Magazine, if anyone wants to look it up.

Jim - hm1986

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Originally posted by meplat:

quote:

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Originally posted by hm1996: The following 3" spotter reveals 14 consecutive shots from prone @ 600 yds w/irons.

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That's a pretty group, hm! Don't you fellows pull the spotter when the X's begin to come in one on top of the other? They _do_ make small spotters still, dont'they? My club used to make the guys pay for 'em when they got shot up like that!

(Uhh... should I ask what happened to the other six?)

Your experience with longevity of the Pre-64 action is typical. Roy Dunlap once wrote a gunsmithing article describing how to shorten a M70 action by 1/2 inch. (This was before the 'short' post-64 action came on the scene.) He said he used one of his highpower actions that had "finally worn out", or words to that effect. He didn't say just what was worn out about it, which I recall being something of a head-scratcher.

At the time I thought it interesting that he intended to take this worn out shortened action and put it on a custom varmint rifle - 22-250 I think - for a customer. "Worn out" indeed!

I believe the article was in an early edition of _RIFLE_ Magazine, if anyone wants to look it up.

Jim - hm1986

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Jim:
Wish you hadn't asked about the other six rounds.

You'll notice the 14th shot took out the spindle and blew a 6" hole in the target, requiring target repair. Conditions went to pot during the delay, not to mention the old man couldn't stand the pressure.

I would be interested in knowing just how many rounds it would take to "wear out" one of these actions. Neither of mine show any signs of wear other than finish; they just seem to keep getting slicker all the time! Nothing like a well used mod 70 action!

Regards,
hm

Stryker and Bisonland, reworked Newton for sale, auctionarms.com 6426417.

Thanks, Vigillinus...I saw the Newton Rifle posted.
Its too altered...I have 3 of my own...all restored
to perfection...original except for restoration
(cosmetic)...My .30 Newton outdoes my .300 Weatherby Magun in velocity with 180 gr. bullets...
Tom

You'd think from all the knowledgeable Pre-64 experts and their anecdotal evidence that gunsmiths trash barrels nationwide would be filled with blown up actions.

Nine years after the thread opened, still considered the best hunting and long range competition factory rifle out there.

I am able to get one or two every year. Keep spreading the word about "new Haven Junk" and help keep prices down.

Rich

A pre-64 model 70 chambered in 280AI sounds really good right about now!
Zeke

I have had and shot the pre-64 and the new ones made in South Carolina. I prefer the new ones.