Why is it that every time I start looking for a new rifle, I am uninspired by caliber selection. It seems that the gun manufacturers have dropped all but the most popular of chamberings, and started making WSM's.

I fancied I want a light walking around rifle, small enough that recoil is zip, large enough that it is capable of up to deer sized game. Not quite a carbine but light and handy, something I am inclined to walk around the woods with, and it is suitable for most game encountered.

THen goes the search, 22-250 really great as a varmit rig, but too light for deer, 243 yes its the popular cartridge, 6mm Rem one varmit rifle only, too heavy, 257 Roberts this is what I had in mind, only Ruger and one custom shop Winchester which isn't readily available.

How much effort does it take to chamber, the non vanilla cartridges? A short list of hard to finds includes the 257 Roberts, 6mm Rem, 250-3000 Savage, 7mm Mauser, actually any 7mm other than 7mm-08 and the 7mm Mag. My list goes on, that is just a short list of can't buy rifles.

Take the 257 Roberts for example, Winchester makes the featherwieght in 243 and 6.5x55, the round is a no brainer to fit in that action, they have both the reamer and 25 caliber barrels, how much would it take to produce a limited run of these?

WInchester isn't the only company at blame here, just about the whole industry is at fault, Remington, Sako, CZ, really only Ruger is making these rifles anymore, and for that I applaud them ( I wish I liked there rifles better ).

The Marketing guru's in this industry are moron's ( OK in a lot of industries ), there is a demand for these rifles, so why aren't you making them. As an example if Winchester build two limited production runs of 7x57 and 257 Roberts of 500 rifles each, How long do you think these would last through the distibution networks? My guess is after initial release a couple of months would pass and you wouldn't be able to find one. This wouldn't even need to be a every year occurance, build 500 ea. every third year, if they are concerned about inventory.

Well enough on my rant, but it pisses me off everytime I go looking for rifles lately, I for one have not bought more rifles in the last few years because it immediatly becomes a rebarreling project, than I care to think about.
To any marketing shitheads out there let me give you some advice: limited production runs of classic calibers sell. A question to the board members how many of you would buy a Winchester Model 70 Featherweight in either a 7x57 or a 257 Roberts? I am convinced I am not the only person in the gun buying public that feels this way.

Enough of my RANT, I am off to the gun shops to look for a used rifle in a 257 Roberts, or something I can rebarrel. Either way its another lost sale for the gun manufacturers.

schromf, I think part of the problem here is the consumer. The manufacturers just won't chamber stuff that doesn't sell, and not enough guys have wanted 257 Roberts and 7X57 rifles to keep those selections going, but I guess Ruger still is on a limited basis with a few of them.

The other part of the problem seems to be that the manufacturers aren't above dropping certain chamberings to sort of manuever buyers into purchasing some of the newer offerings, such as the WSMs.

But quite honestly, most current factory rifles just aren't that well made, so what are we really losing? I'd rather buy older factory rifles that are built better and chambered for cartridges I'm interested in, or else go custom.

As far as I'm concerned, if the factories won't build a quality rifle, and they won't chamber it for what I want, then they won't get my business. There are enough good options out there to make that a viable alternative.

And besides, I've got plenty of rifles, and I'm done playing games and experimenting at the range. I put my time and money into hunts, and to heck with more toys....

AD

Looks like you'll have to keep a lookout for a rifle that is not so new in order to find a caliber you'd like.....

quote:

As far as I'm concerned, if the factories won't build a quality rifle, and they won't chamber it for what I want, then they won't get my business. There are enough good options out there to make that a viable alternative.

My sentiments exactly. Its just I hate having to think custom everytime I go out looking for a rifle. I look at Gallery of Guns which is Winchester distributor listed on their website. Pull up a model number and see what is actually availbale, 270, 30-06 yes, and WSM cartridges. Nothing else is in stock, the only inventory is WSM cartridges, this tells me they are not selling or they would be out of stock also.

I just don't get it, gun buyers come in many different types of people with a variety of age and demographic types. But middle aged ( baby boomers ) have more disposable income than any other age group, and many of us want what we want, or we don't buy, simple as that.

And yes quality is a issue with all new rifles, but most of the items I dislike on newer rifles are minor quality related issues, and a few dollars or some sweat labor on my part gets me a decent working rifle, no not a high end custom, but a decent field grade gun.

Yes looking for a older rifle is certainly an option, and my guess my options on a 257 Roberts are buy a new rifle and have it rebarreled, or hunt for an older rifle.

I'm almost angered when I go to the Winchester website.....WSM after WSM after WSSM etc....I couldn't find a 7MM Rem Mag for crying out loud!!!

I do like the featherweight in 6.5 X 55 however as I see it as a small improvement of the .257 Roberts.

I've considered selling my .257 Roberts featherweight but just hold on to it as it'll be hard to replace.

I agree however...the choices in traditional cartridges is almost gone. Guess I'm getting old.

Allen,

Another thought for the gun manufacturers to put in their collective pipe and smoke. The WSM cartridges have a lot of appeal to younger shooters, on of my sons friends thinks they are the CATS MEOW. THe problem here is where he thinks that these are neat guns and might buy one, I and many members on this board earn about 4-5 times what my sons friends earns. I buy at least one and many years mutliple firearms, but in the last few years it is all used guns, in the last three years I have bought at least 10 firearms, only 2 were purchased new, one was a Colt I had to wait 8 months to get, the other was a deer rifle for my youngest son. So in less than a three year period they have lost a minimum of 8 potential sales. What are these bone heads thinking?

Really lets just say that Wnchester did build a CRF Featherwieght in 257 Roberts, production run of 500-1000 rifles how long do you think these would last, in those small numbers they would be gone almost immediatly, my guess is they would be availble for less than 3 months and they would be out of stock, with zero inventory.

Vapodog,

I looked at the 6.5x55 Featherweight, and it is a viable option, and the closest chambering to fit my wishes, but I really want the Roberts, I even thought about just buying one and having a Krieger tube tube put on it, but if I went that route I would get a 270 or 06 and do it as it just seems wrong to take the already hard to find 6.5x55 and change it.

Just frustrating, and the used gun market isn't always the answer, I have had my eye and wallet open for a decent 22 Hornet for years, its always either can't find one, or when I do the condition sucks and I don't want it, or its a rifle model I don't like.

Winchester isn't the only clowns in this arena, Why doesn't Marlin chamber a 218 Bee, in limited numbers?

I am not asking for engineering efforts here, the current designs are adequate ( minus crappy QA ) just expand the chambering options.

Kinda reminds me of cell phones! I would love to be able to buy a cell phone that was just a phone, and not a computer, internet browser, camera, and email machine. Unfortunately, they don’t exist because no company could make much money just selling them to old farts like me who just want a portable telephone and nothing more.

Factory rifles are the same. The only “factory†rifle I have bought in the last 35 years was a Springfield M1A...and I only bought that because it was a “loaded model†on sale at a price that was really hard to pass up. I feel the same way about most of the new scopes on the market. All these new reticles make it almost impossible to see what the hell you are actually trying to shoot...and I, for one, have never understood the need for variable magnification on a hunting rifle. Obviously though, I am in the minority, and so I will just have to put up with the fact that the shooting industry is going to cater to the other end of the customer spectrum because it is more profitable.

I may use a new factory action to build a rifle, but that’s about it. There are so many fine older rifles and actions out there, and so many barrels and stocks available, that I see absolutely no reason to buy a complete factory rifle from any of the major manufacturers.

Granted, it may take a little bit more time and a little bit more money to have a complete rifle...but at least it will be something I want, in the caliber I want, and sized to fit me.

If merely owning a rifle was what motivated most of us, this web site wouldn’t exist. I believe that this is at the heart of what Allan tries to express most of the time. People buy a factory rifle then spend enormous amounts of time and money to make it into something that they could have bought from a custom maker in the first place.

On the other hand...maybe some of us are just getting old and longing for the “good old days.â€

I like it both ways. For example, take a look at some of the inexpensive, low feature rifles out there. Let's say, the Tikka T3. It's not loaded with options and pretty much only comes in "common" calibers, and delivers solid performance with them. But you know what? I'd really like a .280 Remington. Or a .260 Remington. Or a .358 Winchester. Or a .257 Roberts. Where the hell can I find a good, reasonably priced off the shelf rifle in those calibers? They'd sell if they were marketed properly. Winchester doesn't have anything in a low cost rifle. Neither does Remington. Just as an example. I think a lot of people go custom no so they can get what they want. It's you're money, why settle for second-best?

Take everything you said above and then add left handed to it. Imagine every rifle available, drop 90% of them and there's my choices.

quote:

How much effort does it take to chamber, the non vanilla cartridges?

Depends on how you define effort. You work for X hours, make X dollars, send your action off to somebody you hope will do a good job, and there you have it. My most recent journey converted a .22-250 Rem 700 to .250-3000 Savage. Barrel(Douglas Premium), blueing(incl. action in matte), trigger clean up, bedding and action truing along with lug lapping...$550.00 + shipping one way to Helena, Mt. Add that to the purchase price of $250 for the donor rifle and I'm thinking I did okay on the deal. Haven't shot it yet but I have little doubt it will perform. If a fella can build a Rigby that has the ability to clover leaf three shots I'm guessing he'll do okay with the .250 Savage.

End of ramble.

sometimes our choices are limited.....

Anyone seen the Cooper Classics? These are chambered in 257 Roberts, but it looks like a short throat, which is not prefered. How long is a Model 22 action?

Never ming its single shot.

schromf,

The reality is that the cartridge and even the caliber really don't matter that much! Now that's no fun at all but it's 100% the truth. In order to continue my fun I will forget that fact myself soon after I type it.

Thus there are plenty of factory rifles that will handle a walking around task. It's even easier when one handloads.

Here is one of my walking around rifles. It's a 243 Winchester. Now whats wrong with that besides the fact that it's too easy? I have a 58 gr load for it and a 95 gr load. It's pretty much capable of blasting almost anything under a hundred pounds. Maybe you want a wood stock, maybe a classic style. They are out there.



This rifle is perfect. One could send it on a five year journey to all the smiths on someones "A" list and have them spend $8000 on it and when it came back it would only be five years older and not a whit better. Unless of course you want to brag about how much you spent on it.

Step up to the 260 Rem and it will overlap a 257 RR. They are there. The 95 gr VMax in that little 260 will start out over 3300 fps from a 22" tube and not kick either.

Many a comparison has been made, but the way I see it, the .257 Roberts fills a nich that the 6s can't. As much as I like 6.5m/m, that slow heavy bullet is what made its reputation, and that puts the 6.5 in a category the .25s don't cover. I see the need, why the manufacturers don't escapes me.

Of the newer cartridges out there, the only ones I like are the 204,260, and 338 Ultra, the rest just don't turn my crank. By far the dummest has to be the 270 WSM. Now there was an opportunity squandered as it were, a chance to fix the 264WM lost for the second time.

I now know why John M. Browning and brothers gave up and started building their own rifles.

Savage99,

The fancy price tag is what I am not looking for, I do want a solid working rifle. Plastic stocks and stainless turn me off, practicle yes, ugly yes, just not my cup of tea, to each his own.

I have a 6.5x55 or two so any 6.5 is redundant. I have a bunch of boxes of 25 cal bullets, from my 25-06 days, so I really would like to use them, but in truth the few dollars I save in having the reloading stuff will be false economy over a 243. I might settle for a 243 in the end but I will keeping looking for a while, I have wanted a 257 Roberts for years, even went tso far as to buy a small ring Mexican mauser to build one. I finally gave up on it as it was a project deal witha lot of work required and other more desirable and attinable gun projects came up and I sold it and moved on. I guess an older Sako 243 would be OK, or something similar and it sure would be easier.

Funny thing I mentioned the 218 Bee today I ran across one in a 1894CL Marlin today, I am still thinking about picking it up.

I guess this whole thing is brought on by my gunsmith, I talked to him Monday and the first thing he told me was where the hell was I Saturday, he had picked up a 1950 Model 70 Supergrade in 30-06 in excellent shape, and called me to see if I wanted it. I wasn't around and he was packing it up and someone at the gun show offered him some cash he couldn't refuse. Been grumpy about the fish that got away all week and and was looking pick up something else to forget it. ( I should have had the answering machine on!!!!!!!)

I really don't like the plastic stuff myself. I just have a few to try them out.

Keep looking around. I did a search of the auctions for you for a while. Sort of a vicarious gun purchasing spree with your money and not much turned up.

Look for a M70 Featherweight in 270 and load it with 110 VMax's. The load does not even have to be hot. My "extra" 270 that I fell into likes all loads but RL 15 pushes the little bullets out with no fuss.

Yeah, and the looking isn't just a odd dry spell, I have had my eye open for months. I talked to my gunsmith and FFL and he says the smaller lighter used rifles just don't come up for sale as often, his theory is people buy them, shoot them and like the light recoil and the rifles so well they hold on to them. Doesn't mean it never happens but it sure slim pickings in 257 Roberts.

Dakota Arms is making 257 Roberts, but I really had something less high end in mind.

I guess getting a old Remington 700 would get the job done and I even have a stock, but again project and uninspiring I have gun projects in the works and I want to buy, scope, shoot, not get into another 6 months-1 year project.

I will look at the 243's I know its more fertile ground, maybe I can find a old Winchester, Husky or Sako in that and get excited.

quote:

It's a 243 winchester. It's pretty much capable of blasting almost anything under hundred pounds.

Anyone that thinks a 243 will only kill stuff under 100 lbs is smoking some really good stuff.

Schromf,

I feel your pain, and second your rant.
The gun trade has become a niche market. If a buyer is going to buy multiple rifles, the makers have to offer something more than plain vanilla. Limited runs of classic calibers is a cheap way to broaden ones customer base.
I bought one of the old push feed featherweights in 257 back in the 80s when they first came out and it has become a favorite.
P.S. I also share your take on corporate executives.

true story...
until the wsm craze, the most commonly requested "non-available" custom rifle was..


drum roll..

the 358 winchester

at least according to reamer sales and some polls...


at least you can buy a winchester custom shop in it.. of course, for the price, you can make 10 yourself...


It's marketing and what the traqde rags say about the round... the rum kicks too hard and the wsm has some feeding troubles... only the former gets mentioned in the mags

jeffe

schromf,

Your in a good position now. You have some money and it's fun to shop. Since you already have guns make the shopping part of the enjoyment.

So cruise the shops and the net. Don't know if you want a fancy stock a "Mauser" or whatever and sometimes I don't either til I see it.

Have fun.

Schromf: Do I ever have empathy for your belief's. I was ever so disappointed in CZ for dropping the 7x57mm from it's excellent little CZ 550 Full Stock and then they went and did the same thing in the CZ 550 American. Around the same time the company brought out the CZ 3 in the 7mm WSM. Just because CZ dropped the cartridge from its lineup will not spell the end for the classic cartridge. I posted my displeasure with CZ a while back and one fellow wrote that the 7x57mm was also dropping in popularity in Europe. There will be reloading components long after I am gone from this earth though and I do so love to handload for the cartridge. As for the .257 Roberts, made by simply necking down the 7x57mm, you can find several on GunBroker.com and GunsAmerica.com by doing a search on .257 Roberts. Most of them show that the people selling them are proud of the product. An acquaintance of mine in Grants had a .257 Roberts in a Ruger Model 77 with a pencil-thin barrel and some custom work on the stock that made it a true two-yard of angle rifle. Jay does not hunt at all and talked of selling it. I imagine if it is not already gone it could be had for around $300 to $350, but who knows about the accuracy of it. It sure felt light and handy though. Tom Purdom

Sometimes the hunt is fun, sometimes its just years looking for the right rifle. I did run across some BRNO ZKK's in 243. Hmmm still not a 257 Bob.

I think I am going to keep my eye open for a FN in a 270/30-06 with a decent factory stock, and rebarel it. My thoughts are leaning to getting a Krieger barrel, and having it lapped and trued. I know it isn't the cheapest option, and I'll end up with over a grand in it, but I will like the end result. If a nice 1950's Husky came along it would work also.

In the end it is probably the best route to go anyway, as I can long throat the rifle when its being rebarreled and that is where the 257 Roberts does best. Another option is a SAKO but they tend to be a little on the heavy side and it is defeating my purpose.

I pretty much went through the gun auction sites yesterday, there were a couple of intersting options, but I think I will keep looking. I will be patient, and keep at it.

The FN was what I was talking about but it's heavy. So what! It's so nice that it's worth it. Mine shoots so well that you would like it as it is. Besides they have those cool proofs and serial numbers on them.



This is a 270. It's a little heavy but so sweet. This one was made around 1949 and it has the serial nos matching on the action, barrel and stock. It's very accurate and a pleasure to look at. The bedding is the true Mauser with bushings (pillars?) on the front and rear.

If you can find one like this buy it.

schromf,

I sometimes feel the same way. Then I wonder if the reason I want an inexpensive, factory .117-416 Rigby on a sidelever falling-block action, left-handed, is really because it'll take me a while to find one. And searching for it will be fun.

The fact that Ruger probably offers one is a mild irritant, because I could quickly scratch the itch if I wanted to. I sometimes think my attraction to old, unavailable chamberings could be an economic self-defense mechanism.

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
Take everything you said above and then add left handed to it. Imagine every rifle available, drop 90% of them and there's my choices.

Amen brother!!!!

You make alot of points i agree with totaly ! Frankly What i wish Usrac winchester would do is sell actions. When they came out with that classic compact a few years back, we had somthing gun nutz have wanted for years. a true short action model 70. While i am not sure, I have been told it works well for the mauser length rounds.
How many smiths would love to have an action like that to build customs in 257 Roberts
6mm REM .358win .284 win 7X57 and god knows how many iproved versions and wildcats ! They are only selling them in 7mm08 and .243. There are lots of people who want a rifle built on that action, I for 1 would probably have one done up every couple years...tj3006

I've purchased Winchester barreled actions only a few years ago.....maybe they still sell them as a barreled action.

The " WSM Kaliber Kraze" used to make me scatch my head a little until I figured something tough for the gun industry; they make one of the only products that has both a limited market and a virtual unlimited product lifetime. Most hunting rifles will last 3 generations of the average hunter, minimum. I guess they took a page from the car maker's playbook and decided they needed pointless model changes to attract the attention of potential buyers. ANd models that did'nt sell well just didn't survive.

Think of all the people who would love a NEW 65 GTO or '63 Vette and then realize it's still far too few to justify a production run.

quote:

If you can find one like this buy it.

Savage99,

Actually I have one, but I opened the bolt face up, and ran a chamber reamer through it and its a 30-338. Sweet rifle, my main go to hunt anything anywhere rifle, I load Nosler 200 gr partitions and with that load in that rifle it is pretty much the Hammer of Thor.

These are very nice rifles I have had mine almost twenty years in its current configuration, and I would add another to my collection in a heartbeat.

Brownell's has Ruger barreled actions in .257 Roberts.

quote:

Brownell's has Ruger barreled actions in .257 Roberts.

I looked for a puke gremlin there isn't one, I hate Rugers. I know they make a 257 Rob, but that won't change my mind. My son went out and bought a Ruger to spite me, he is currently paying safe rent fees for it even being in my safe, and the commodity is a pound of flesh. Good news is a I convinced him to sell it, and it wil be gone soon, NIB never fired.