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I have a M38 Turkish Mauser. I would like to have it rechambered to an 8-06. What problems or more exact what expectations should I be looking at. Will the barrel have to be removed - my understanding is this is basically a fairly simple operation. I don't have to perform the function so I don't know. Any insight? Dave | ||
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| one of us |
Please think twice. The factory cartridges 8x60 S and 8x64 S are both more reasonable choices for your project. Regards, Carcano | |||
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That is a good question. I wouldn't do it without the barrel being removed personally, but I would like other opinions from folks that have done it. None of the "factory" ammo carcano mentions are readily available near me or are at a reasonable price. One pass through the die sounds good if there is nothing huge to be done to the rifle. | |||
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Carcano, I believe that on this side of the pond the cartridges you mention are not easy to find nor are they cheap. Wann Ich in Duestchland w�re wurde ich mit Ihnen einverstanden sein. In any case I would not consider the conversion to the 8mm-06 only because in my mind the costs involved outweigh the miniscule gains. I believe the 8x57 is fine as is. | |||
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quote:Which statement is wrong for the 8x64 S (Sellier & Bellot factory ammo is easily available in the USA, and it is CHEAP), but very correct for the 8mm-06, which is a pure and sole reloader's proposition. Regards, Carcano | |||
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quote:I guess I'm on the wrong forum. Do any of you know the web address for ACCURATE RELOADING? | |||
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I'd leave it as 8x57, too. 8mm-06 is a good cartridge. The others are sometimes hard to get regardless of what others might say. It comes and goes. | |||
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quote:You did not understand, Hobie. Please begin to think about it now. The 8x60 S and 8x64 S have the advantage of being factory cartridges *and* being reloadable. This is always a plus. Whereas the 8mm-06 is a pure wildcat (it is also inferior vs. the 8x64 S from the interior ballistics viewpoint, but I am not sure you'd understand this either ;-)). Carcano | |||
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Carcano I have three 8mms in the gun safe. All are WWII vintage. One has been restocked, barrel shortened, metal work beautifully polished and blued, it was made by BRNO. The second one my Dad picked up off the steps of the Cathedral in Cologn in 1945, it still has the blood stains on the stock. My Grandfather used it for deer hunting until he died. The third one is a project gun I got from a buddy, it's BYF, it's been gound to sporting configuration and polished. This rifle is a prime candidate for restocking, blueing and shooting. I also have a 25-06 and the 375 Whelen. I don't shoot the 8mms because the factory rounds are pretty anemic and I'm unwilling to pay the outrageous price for bulk 8mm brass. If I converted the 8mms to 8mm 06 I would have the brass on hand already {30-06}and I'd shoot them like I shoot the 25-06 and the 375 Whelen. My Grandfathers rifle will not be sold or traded, but handed on to the Grandsons as an artifact of thier Great Granddfathers part of the war. Personally it's a viable option. Jim | |||
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quote:Your reasoning is faulty, if you allow me to point this out. If you were to convert the 8x57 to 8x60 or 8x64 (whether this be reasonable, is indeed another question; I would myself debate it, because the 8x57S is a powerful cartridge with ever so many different factory loads from every manufacturer), then you would indeed have the very same cheap brass on hand for reforming: .30-06. You might need an auxiliary shoulder for the 8x64S at the first fireforming, but this is a very minor inconvenience in comparison to the advantages. Carcano [ 08-23-2003, 13:07: Message edited by: carcano91 ] | |||
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Do it if you think you will like it and want to shoot the rifle without rebarreling. For some reason 8mm's seem to have particularly unpleasant recoil to me. I guess nobody has really answered your question, from what I know it is not a difficult process. I believe it is just a rechambering and double checking the feed work. I had one in my safe until a few months ago, it belonged to a friend, and as far as I know he just took it in and had them rechamber it, do some sporter stuff to it, and put on a synthetic stock. The rifle still wears a military step barrel. Hope that helps. Red | |||
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On some 8mm chambers, you will have to take a thread off the barrel to avoid "stepped" necks on the brass. You'll really have to do a chamber cast to see if the rifles in question will have this problem or not. If so, the barrel will definately have to come off. I've known people who have done this conversion without removing the barrel and checking the chamber (including myself) and ended up doing the job twice to correct the problem. You'll probably also have to open up the mag box a little for proper COL. Carccano, there are lot's of places in North America where 8 X 60 or 8 X 64 brass is impossible to find. So you'll have to mail order it, and probably pay a pretty high price for it over here, evertime you need new brass. 30-06 brass is everywhere and cheap. That's why this is a viable (and to some people preferrable) option on this side of the pond. - Dan | |||
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http://www.ows-ammunition.com Has 8x64S cases for $13 per 20. That's reasonable to have cases that are stamped. I don't think anyone is making stamped 8mm-06 cases. I was contemplating the same decision, but my 8mm barrel is too short to benefit from the conversion (21.5"). | |||
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If it's already an 8x57S, I'd leave it that way. Handloaded 8x57's pack plenty of punch, factory ammo is readily available, etc. 8mm-06 is a good choice though if you choose to rechamber. | |||
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Carcano Since I know nothing.....nothing at all! To quote Sgt. Schultz. about the various European cartridges, I will bow to your superior knowledge. As I understand it the 8mm x 60 or 8mm x 64 are commercial cartridges that have the same case head size as the 8mmx57 and the 30-06. Is the 30-06 also known as the 7.62 x 62? A I do thank you for your patience in 'splaining to this dunder head. Jim | |||
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Rechamber to 8mm Gibbs and have a novelty rifle with close to 338 horsepower.I have one that weighe 6 1/2 pounds and it kicks like a mule but it's still fun.Mark | |||
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I've rechambered a barrel on the action with a tee-handle and extension from Clymers. You could probably rent a reamer from reamerrentals.com. You could probably even pass on renting the chamber gauge and just ream until it closed on a sized 06 case. I have a Turkish mauser in 8x57. I did all the sporterizeing stuff myself and I'm into it for around $125 with the scope. I couldn't get it to shoot 150's. The best group I could manage was 1.5" at 25yds!! My bore was a bit oversized and someone suggested going to a heavier bullet, I switched to speer 170's and now it shoots in the .8" range at 100yds. Velocity is just above 2600fps. You could get more velocity from the 06 case. If he ended up with a stepped neck after reaming, would it really bother anything if he just partialy neck sized? Saeed has a gunsmithing story about a rifle they chambered and used a drill to remove most of the metal before useing the finish reamer. They ended up with a large double stepped neck, but it shot great. Maybe if useing a lathe isn't really an option, then maybe he could use a reamer to open the neck up to get rid of the step if the original neck is oversized. Maybe do a chamber cast and measure to see what you have before you start? Sometimes Midway has sales on the Adams and Bennet barrels, awhile back they had 35 whelen barrels for around $55. I should have got two of them. I say go for it. | |||
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quote:Arkypete - your metrical conversion hits the nail on that head indeed. I shall use a comparison, in order to demonstrate why a conversion to 8mm-06 would be a truly silly endeavour (after 1945, the situation was totally different - the conversion was a reasonable makeshift measure born out of frugality). After drafting these examples, I was astonished how *well* they encompass every aspect of the original project... Example 1: you have a 7x57 rifle and decide to convert it to 7x64, because you a) think that the 7x64 is so much better on the paper, and b) you have a lot of .30-06 brass lying around that you think you can easily convert to 7x64. Especially the false conclusion a) is totally parallel to our 8mm case. Example 2: being in Europe, you have a .308, and you decide to convert it to .30-06, because a) you think that the .30-06 is so much better on paper than the .308 (yeah, isn't ?), and b) because, as would be expected in Germany and France, because you have soooo much 7x64 brass lying around on your local range that you could easily convert to .30-06 (metrical name: 7,62x63). I believe that these two examples explain it well enough. If one has the chance of converting or rechambered a gun to either a pure wildcat or to a factory cartridge with identical performances, the factory cartridge is always the better option. (Exceptions are gracefully granted for snobism reasons: such as my own silly pet project, having a gun ade in 9x63 M/88 instead of the far more reasonable .35 Whelen or 9,3 x 62). And in our initial 8mm case, the 8x64 is even slightly superior to the 8mm-06, due to its larger case capacity - have you ever compared the neck lengths ? Carcano | |||
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Carcano The rifling in the barrels of the BRNO and the byf are so sharp and defined that once I get them converted to 8mm x 60 or 64 I'm going to spend many an hour working up cast bullet loads. The cast bullet loads are all full power loads not powder puff loads. One of my shooting buddies claims that the 375 Whelen loads loosens filling in his teeth. Since most of my cast bullet loads for other rifles, the heavier bullets prove to be the more accurate so I'll start working at 190 to 200 grain bullets. I have a 300 grain round nose for my 375 Whelen, that is wonderfully accurate. I'll ask my gunsmith what he thinks of the viablity of the 8mmx64, as far as feeding through these actions. Jim | |||
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I have some old literature that Brno put out promoting their ZG-47 rifles in the 1950's. They mention that their rifles are available in 7x57, 7x64, 8x57S, 8x60S, 8x64S, 30-06, 270, 9.3x62 & 10.75x68. The pamplet goes on to say: "Of these cartridges, the one that can be called universal and is best recommended is the caliber 8x64S. Its characteristics are high muzzle velocity, outstanding shooting accuracy and great stopping power." For what it's worth, just their opinion, but the 8x64 & 8mm-06 seem to come pretty close to all around calibers. | |||
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Carcano is right - IF you live in Germany, where ammo & brass for the 8X60 S and 8X64 are readily available. Here, I make 8X60S cases from .30.'06 brass, and 8X60RS brass from (EXPENSIVE!!) RWS 7X65R cases! So, if you live in the U.S. or Canada, I'd recommend an 8mm/'06 because of brass availability, and both the 8mm/'06 and the AI version are real killers!! For some reason I find the .323" size to be better than the .308's, just like Charlie Askins did, although I disagreed with almost everything else he ever said. ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} Arkypete, if you come up with a good cast-bullet load for your 8X60S, please let me know. I am always looking for good 198-200 grain loads for my 8X60RS double.... Thanks. [ 08-24-2003, 16:26: Message edited by: eldeguello ] | ||
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The last issue of Rifle (or Handloader -- I get both and mix them up) has a nice long article on the 8mm-06 wildcat. I think you can order a single issue via www.riflemagazine.com I think it had a lot of tested loads. Having lived in Canada, the US, and Europe, I think I have a better overview of the wildcat vs factory chambering (no matter how obscure) debate. I can say that the best choice does depend where you are. In North America, go for the 8mm-06. meplat358 | |||
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quote:Sure. I have a number of 7x65R cases lying around here, for which I have no use. If you wish, I'll be glad to mail them to you (sea mail) Which is exactly the reason why the 8mm-06 is the inferior choice vs the two other 8mms: with them, you can use factory ammo, but you can also make the brass for the 8x64 and 8x60 from easily available .30-06 without problem. Regards, Carcano | |||
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quote:Sure. I have a number of 7x65R cases lying around here, for which I have no use. If you wish, I'll be glad to mail them to you (sea mail). Which is exactly the reason why the wildcat 8mm-06 is the inferior choice vs the two other 8mms: with them, you can use factory ammo, but you can also make the brass for the 8x64 and 8x60 from easily available .30-06 without problem. And Meplat: you are really dead wrong. Wrong as a dodo, so to speak. If performance is equal (as it is here), a cartridge such as the 8x60S and the 8x64S that can use both proper factory brass *and* readily available reformable brass (here: .30-06), is *always* preferable to a exclusive wildcat, which is limited to previously-to-be-reformed brass. HOW COME US-AMERICANS ARE SO WILLFULLY IGNORANT OF EVERYTHING BEYOND THEIR OWN FROGPOND?! It's really incredible. *exasperated sigh* Regards, Carcano [ 08-24-2003, 22:03: Message edited by: carcano91 ] | |||
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quote:Ah... I didn't think these 2 cases *could* be easily/properly made from the 30-06. If one can make these cases easily from 30-06, then by all means chamber for one of these. Still, the 8mm-06 wildcat is so common in the US and Canda that dies would be cheaper for it, and resale value of the rifle probably higher. If you wanted to sell it, you'd have to put a tag on the rifle saying "simply neck up 30-06 cases" ! ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon} "Joe Average" might possibly know of the 8mm-06 because it was once very common, but ones that know the 8x64 or 8x60 would be few. And carcano... I'm not an American and I live in Europe (now -- I used to live in Canada and the US). meplat358 [ 08-24-2003, 22:28: Message edited by: meplat358 ] | |||
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Carcano, Youve been getting your cartridge data from "Mine Kampf" again, havent you.. ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif){kind=icon} I have 3 out of 4 reloading manuals that contain data for the 8mm-06. Only 1 of them list any data for the other chamberings that you have mentioned as so called "better options than 8mm-06". Also your reasoning AGAINST the 8-06 bounces back and forth like a teenage fluzie trying to decide who to date this weekend. Your argument about brass availability has negative value in the states.. The direction that the 8X60 and 8X64 are factory rounds is equally irrelevant to a handloader, especially stateside. And if minimal gains becomes your reasoning then why did the 8X60 ever enter the equation? Methinks your anti american sentiment is showing through again.. ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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quote:Right ! Insofar, you are correctly repeating what I wrote. The gains of the 8x64 and the 8x60 (the pre-war RWS and DWM Magnum loads of the latter even surpass the 8x64, but I would not expect you to know) would, from a mere utilitarian viewpoint, hardly justify a rechambering. The 8x57 IS is a powerful, universal cartridge as it is, with a large number of powerful factory loads, and even more handloading options. The rest of your posting shows that you have not even understood the situation, due to a lack of reloading knowledge on your part; so you better don't try to find an answer to a non-understood question. If you don't even know about case dimensions and case reforming, you should not post in a wildcatting thread and make a fool out of yourself, but rather stay silent and learn from others. Carcano [ 08-25-2003, 00:20: Message edited by: carcano91 ] | |||
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To Meplat: sorry. I must have been oblivious to your location, and I apologize for that ! After all, Sweden has three autochthonous 8mm cartridges to choose from, in addition to the usual ones. I own a M 96 sporter chambered for one of them. Carcano [ 08-25-2003, 00:35: Message edited by: carcano91 ] | |||
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quote:Every time someone mentions the 8mm-06 you get a burr up your ass like it is some kind of an american violation of your teutonic nobility. Well, my apologees to the rest of the membership but Ive heard it long enough. I understand quite well that you are puffed up with false pride and more full of shit than a christmas goose. If the man desires an 8mm-06 then let him have one. Its not like it is some kind of bastard load that has no merit and is a nussance to deal with, although you seem to think so. I understand that an 8mm-06 is a simple run through a size die from a 30-06 and minimal as it may be it does have a real world edge over the 8X57, so whats all the fuss about? Why dont you just try explaining EXACTLY what you claim that has not been understood by this ignorant yankee instead of dodging the issue once again and placing yourself on your high horse. Now we can go on exchanging insults like this if you wish, or you can "GET REAL" and try to explain what part of my first post that you claim was in error. But of corse you wont, because your argument doesnt have a leg to stand on unless your zip code is in Der mutherland.. So go ahead and call me ignorant again, because thats all youve got!! | |||
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This is great, thanks for all your responses guys. But to mention about the rechamber to the 8x64 - I've contemplated that also. I liked the perfomance charateristics of it, but came to the conclusion that if I would indeed go that route I would rather go full tilt and rechamber to the now gone 8MM Rem Mag. The decision on these 2 chamberings comes more with familararity than anything else. I know of the 8MM-06 and the 8MM Rem Mag. All knowlege gained by first hand exiperince. I have absolutely nothing against the European cartridges and their perforamce is impressive, but I will claim extreme ignorance to what they are - (I've just never been exposed to them). I also don't want to take away from the 8x57 - it too is a great cartridge. I also have no problem with the gun being a single shot if necessary. I don't like to crimp performance loads anyway(unless I have to) - besides, almost all of my current hunting rigs are single shots anyway. I'm also quite fond of wildcatting. I've been doing it for quite a few years now - I also reload every centerfire firearm that I own. To give you some backgroud - I'm really looking for a tough rifle that can go back country with me. I like this rifle and think that I could make it fit me quite well, and I have always been impressed with the 8MM-06. A repeater isn't necessarily something that I have just got to have. Thanks again - this certainly has been interesting, and the international responses has been enlightening. Dave | |||
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Dave2of5, I really don't know much about this type of cartridge but isn't 8-06 another way of saying .338-06? | |||
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Brent, 8mm projectiles are typically 0.323" diameter ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} .Regards, Bill | |||
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quote:Thanks Bill, I lost my ability to do arithematic this morning - sorry about that. The 0.015" or so of diameter is gonna be critical out there. Brent Real calibers start at .45 anyway as in .45-anything Sharps | |||
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I see carcano has come down from the mountain with the "stone tablets" again! | |||
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Considering the cost of wildcat dies, it might be better to chamber for the 8mm-06 AI. Many years ago, a gunsmith-friend did quite a bit of the rechambering for the 8-06...until he got the reamers for the improved. This cartridge will increase your rifle's capability beyond the 'O6 standard case, and even more beyond the 57mm case. Kinda like having just a little bit smaller .338-06 (which I have). | |||
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quote:If one wants a wildcat instead of a factory cartridge with the same performance and almost same dimensions, the 8mm-06 AI would then indeed be a more suitable choice than the 8mm-06. And it would probably equate 8x64 S ballistics. On the other hand, if the aforementioned "IF" is meant in earnest, why not go the whole way and chamber for the 8mm Mazon, which Montero has described in the other thread ? Carcano | |||
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Okay, how about the 3200 Hawk? http://www.z-hat.com/Hawk%20Ballistics.htm They are claiming 3030fps with a 175gn bullet. 3200 Hawk (8mm) Powder Bullet Velocity *59 gr. H4895 150gr. 3183 fps *60 gr. H4895 150gr. 3233 fps 175gr. 3030 fps *64 gr. H4350 200gr. 2840 fps *53.5 gr. H4895 220gr. 2703 fps *61gr. H4350 220gr. 2707 fps This one looks like a winner to me. | |||
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I'd think I'd be looking at the 338-06 ahead of all of them. Bullets are easy to get in a variety of different weights, plus it's a factory round now. The 8x60 or 8x64 have little to no merit in the states due to their lack of availability. I've yet to see my first box in the sporting good store. If you're going to go the 8mm-06 route, run with the Ackley Improvement. You're going wildcat anyway, might as well go all the way, or like Lar45 suggested, go with the 3200 Hawk. The 375 Hawk and 338 Hawk are pretty neat rounds too. One thing is for sure, any cartridge that's based off of the 30-06 Springfield hasn't a lot to prove. It's already proven. The cartridges are plentiful, and whether it's necked up or down, it's killed more critters than all other case designs combined. That includes Europe critter too! | |||
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quote:Wrong. You have yet to see the first box of factory-made 8mm-06 amm in the sporting good store :-D. You really don't get what the argument was about, do you ? quote:Very funny. Here is a riddle for you: on which cartridge is the .30-06 based ? Carcano | |||
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There were thousands upon thousands 8x57s rechambered to 8mm 06 after the great war that was in all the papers. War vets killed countless deer with the 8mm 06. State side I think you would have a real thumper in the 8mm 06. If you are a hand loader the by golly go ahead and rechamber. That is the fun part of gun ownership and reloading. If our fore fathers didn't have the spirit of adventure we'd still be living in soddies and shooting blunderbusts. IMHO Dave, do it, you wont be sorry.