Okay everyone, I finally have enough nerve to carve a stock out of a very expensive black walnut blank with a lot of color, contrast and figure in it. What type of sealer, filler, finish and techniques should I use to best show off the wood's charctoristic's? Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. ?

Ah yes...the great debate! Which finish to use. I will submit a good grade marine varnish thinned will do the job nicely. If you do a search on this forum you will find a huge amount of posts on the subject of stock finishing.

I like a good sanded in Tung Oil finish. Sanding the Tung Oil in makes filler unnessary. Easily repariable and shows the wood grain better than any other IMHO.......DJ

I'm with Bill Soverns on this one- I use thinned (Waterlox) tung oil based marine spar varnish soaked in and sanded off then top coated with the same...

I'm doing two nice mauser stocks now. I use pro-custom oil. It's a tung oil with some stuff? added to make it cure faster. Sand to 400, whisker twice then put you sealing coat (diluted 4-1 with mineral spirits) on and let dry for 2-3 days. Repeat then wet sand with 400 and 2-1 oil to fill the grain. You can go up to 600 or higher then use rotten stone. I always finish with a hand rub. A little dab of straight oil on you finger and rub it in. Let cure for about a week then 0000 stell wool to get rid of the varnish look. Works for me.

i am a tung oil fan, too..

right from the can (generally a new one, as they gum up here) to my hands (nitrile gloves) or some 400 grit sand paper....

many many coats....

jeffe

Billhilly,
"Sand to 400, whisker twice then put you sealing coat (diluted 4-1 with mineral spirits) on and let dry for 2-3 days."
Is that 4 parts of tung oil to 1 part Mineral spirits?
Thanks,
Don

Try TEAK oil, gives a beautiful satin finish and is durable.

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Originally posted by djpaintles:
I like a good sanded in Tung Oil finish. Sanding the Tung Oil in makes filler unnessary. Easily repariable and shows the wood grain better than any other IMHO.......DJ

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A lot depends on the size of the pores in the wood. American black walnut, generally grown in moist conditions, tends to have larger pores, and is more difficult to fill, than european varieties. Spar varnish works great as a sealer/filler, if it is sanded down to the bare wood, leaving only the pores filled. Then a handrubbed oil finish shows off the wood to good advantage. I personally prefer a linseed oil finish to tung oil, because pure tung oil, while looking great, will turn white if it is exposed to water. Boiled linseed makes a great finish, but it requires a long period of hand-rubbing with small amounts of oil - lots of elbow grease, sparse oil. It has to be rubbed until it burns the b=hand from friction, then more oil & more rubbing! Commercial preparations, like Tru-oil, require less rubbing because they contain a drying agent as well as oil.

Although an oil finish looks great if properly done, no oil finish really seals the wood and prevents moisture from entering the cells of the wood and causing expansion and possible warpage.

I also use 400 A wet/dry paper for whiskering. You do this UNTIL THE WOOD STOPS EXPANDING WHEN YOU WET IT! Some wood may only have to be raised & whiskered twice, but some will require four or five treatments before it stops rising when wetted and heated. I do my last prep before oiling with 0000 steel wool. This "polishes" the wood, giving it a sheen, before any oil is applied.

Has any one used a product called Warthog, Purdys' Gun Stock care kit? It is clamed to be what James Purdy & Sons have always used.Was thinking of trying it. ??? allen

Be wary of any oil that penetrates excessively. I once put BLO on a piece of expensive english. As I put later coates of tung oil and sanded them in the stock got way too dark. The figure was obscured. I ended up with very dark brown with black streaks.

I would opt for something that sat on the surface more. Spar varnish, or possibly laquir.

Jim forgive me for giving away one your secrets. BUT- Jim Kobe once showed me his secret finish. If any one has seen his stockwork, you will realize it is one of the best. anyway he uses deft clear danish oil. It is mix of tung oil and polyurethane. It gives a hard coat like the poly, but repairs like oil. His other secret is that he applies it with 400 grit wet/dry paper on a sanding block.

A lot depends on the size of the pores in the wood. American black walnut, generally grown in moist conditions, tends to have larger pores, and is more difficult to fill, than european varieties. [/QUOTE]

I've used this method to finish some pretty open grained Claro, you've seen my pictures before. The trick is to sand up a little "mud" consisting of the oil and sanding dust, this is what fills the grain and saves you about 10 coats or so worth of rubbing. As mentioned earlier you do have to let the first coats dry thouroughly, I prefer waiting a week.
It is true however that there are other methods that are more waterproof, but you can almost never totally seal wood. Some prefer to make sure that the wood will all absorb water equally. But that's another discussion.....DJ

DMB, It's 4-1 the other way.

I've used the Pro-custom oil spray can version. Works great for me.

It's like what you use with a set of training wheels attached

Terry

Yes the tung oil proceedures or some variation seems like it might work. I may experiment with a portion of the blank that will not be use for the stock and try some of your suggestions. Thank all of you very much.

Phatom, Use some Marine spar varnish to seal the wood first. I have been useing McCloskeys marine spar varnish. I soak the stock with 50/50 spar varnish/mineral spirits. Twice. Then wet sand with 320 and vanish 50/50 to get mud and wipe into the grain several times to fill the pores. sand it and wipe it clean the last time then I use a Deft danish tung oil(which has urethane resins) to build the finish. Wet sand it in several times 400 1000 etc with Deft danish tung. Then finger apply final rub coats.

Mr. Soverns had a good post on this on HA. I found it very usefull. Maybe he still has it. I might have it saved also. I varied a little bit but it was still very helpfull. I never get tired of these threads.......

Another vote for tung oil..

waterproof, shiney and gives depth to the figure. Much better than any plastic or varnish.

As far as I'm concerned, there's no such thing as a "good old fashioned" natural oil finish. Tung oil looks great in the trophy room when you take the rifle out of the gun cabinet, but in my experience it isn't worth a damn anywhere else except in dry hunting country.

I've had two custom rifles finished with tung oil that showed their true colors in foul weather. One was stocked in English walnut, and the other in laminated birch. In each case, rain and/or wet snow washed that tung oil right out of the pores, and after just one day of hunting. You might as well have finished the stock with tap water. I had a stockmaker carry on about the virtues of tung oil one time, claiming that the Chinese used it to preserve the Great Wall. Maybe so, but it was my sad experience that tung oil wasn't capable of preserving a stock for one day of wet Oregon elk hunting or snowy British Columbia goat hunting...........

The best stock finishes have the look of hand-rubbed oil, but are really tough synthetics. Jerry Fisher for years used Flecto Varathane Plastic Oil and Sealer, and this is indeed very tough stuff in my experience.

Earl Milliron used a tough, non-shrinking epoxy that he actually worked into the wood, and some of his thirty year-old, well-used riflestocks look just about new, and the finished hasn't receeded out of the wood pores one little bit.

Al and Roger Biesen use Varathane, and they produce incredibly durable finishes with their method of applying it, and beautiful, too.

Echols and his friend Gene Simillion use an intercellular sealer first, then an advanced synthetic oil. When they teamed up and first developed this finish system, Gene took a stock so finished into the shower every day for a month to test it. The hot, steamy water had no effect on the stock or its finish whatsoever, and Echols has sent complete rifles up to the Gulf of Alaska with professional guides for entire seasons of wet spring brown bear hunts, with no ill effects on the stock whatsoever.

There are certain aspects of riflemaking where "Blessed Tradition" needs to take a hike, and stock finishing is one of them.........

AD

I have to agree that a Tung Oil finish leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to keeping water out of a stock. When I started finishing stocks, I used it on my stock, mainly because of recommendations from books on gunsmithing. Later I found that Tung Oil is only slightly more water resistant than linseed oil. I won’t go so far as to say that the finish ran off the stock in wet weather but it might as well have. After a day of two in the wet, the stock wood would become rough which to me means the water had got into the wood and raised the grain( and yes, I always raise the grain before sealing).

I now use a solution of Interlux Marine spar Varnish, Deft Matine Teakwood Finish and paint thinner. I soak the stock for 10-12 hrs to seal, cure for 20-30 days then fill and finish with the same solution. The final product looks like a classic oil rubbed finish. And it’s as water-proof . This past fall I hunted for two weeks in rain and wet snow and the stock came home as smooth as when it left.

Here’s a couple of pictures of a recently finished Black walnut stock on an Interarms Mark 10 in .375 H&H. My thanks to Bill Soverns who sold me the blank

I am just curious if anyone knows exactly what the large and middle size manufactures, like Winchester, Remington, and Dakota, use.

Those can be catalized urea formaldehyde finishes. Some call them bowling pin finishes. The best stuff I ever used like that was called "glass kote". Fuller O'Brien's version is called "Fuller Plast". This kind of finish has it's Pro's and Con's.

If you fill the grain well with a grain filler and sand everything super smooth you can make finishing the stock a one shot deal. This kind of finish can make for a very durable water resistant top coat.

The problems are several. First, it will tend to look like a bowling pin. You will want to rub it out to make it look better. It will require a good spray rig. The stuff is very toxic. You will need a proper NIOSH approved respirator, paper mask won't cut it. Use a booth or do it outside. There is a learning curve. If you can clear coat a car you can do this. You may not be able to get any in your state. The air pollution bed wetters have made buying it illegal in some states.

I have used a lot of this type of finish. I have gotten away from it and have moved toward laquirs. That is another finish used by factories. It is less problimatical. It has the disadvantage of being suspectable to some solvents. Spray can Deft works pretty well. The sanding sealer fast to dry and does not plug the sand paper. The top coat is good stuff too. If you fill the stock with tinted grain filler first laquir makes a very good looking finish.

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Originally posted by djpaintles:
A lot depends on the size of the pores in the wood. American black walnut, generally grown in moist conditions, tends to have larger pores, and is more difficult to fill, than european varieties.

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I've used this method to finish some pretty open grained Claro, you've seen my pictures before. The trick is to sand up a little "mud" consisting of the oil and sanding dust, this is what fills the grain and saves you about 10 coats or so worth of rubbing. As mentioned earlier you do have to let the first coats dry thouroughly, I prefer waiting a week.
It is true however that there are other methods that are more waterproof, but you can almost never totally seal wood. Some prefer to make sure that the wood will all absorb water equally. But that's another discussion.....DJ

[/QUOTE]Thanks for the tip!

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Originally posted by 22WRF:
I am just curious if anyone knows exactly what the large and middle size manufactures, like Winchester, Remington, and Dakota, use.

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Remington used to advertise their finish as being "tough as a bowling pin,", so perhaps it was really some kind of bowling pin finish. It was shiny, and DID NOT look like hand-rubbed oil! But I don't think Winchester, much less Dakota, used such a glaring flashy, paint-on finish.

Mauser 98- nice looking stock!

Hi: There will be a thousand answers to this question...I agree with the allan day
posting...
There is a product I've used, and I know some custom gun makers & stock makers
who use it too: Its brand name is " Gun Sav'r". I believe Brownell's stccks it.
Its in a spray can. Get the Satin Finish one.
The "Satin Finish" one will make a stock look like it had a hand rubbed finish,
but more durable. You can put enough coats on to fill the grain.
The beauty of this finish is, of all the stock men I've talked to, its the easiest
yet provides a durable finish and beautiful finish, the most "User friendly"!
I'm anti-tung oil finishes...I've uesed them too. Not as durable, harder & more
more work to apply. No way, not worth the effort.
It might interest viewers of this thread..I had a stock done by a gunshop...it
showed the wood off beautifully, like a careful tung oil finish does...even
better. I called the gunshop & asked what the heck finish was put on...they
said it was the same stuff auto body shops use...the 'clear coat' type spray.
What it did was sprayed very thin, a few coats...this brought the grain & wood
color out better than any finish I've seen...Harry Lawson's epoxy finish is very close to it. However, the finish is so hard and glossy, if you ding it when
hunting...the finish shatteres at the spot...like it was glass coated...and
can't be patched up. So, that's its disadvtage, also a glossy finish.
The Gun Sav'r Satin Finish which is some sort of a tung/polyurethene finish
works very well for me. And is easy to use, I've know guys (like me) who have
tried everything under the sun...when they tried Gun Sav'r Satin, they stopped
experienting..works so good & easy! Try it. If you don't like it, sand it off
when it dries. But I'll bet you won't. Best Wishes, Tom

Bisonland,

I use Chem-Pak custom oil, but not the spray. I heard the spray was pretty good. Have you checkered over the spary, with it being satin, it has silica in it, wouldn't that make it hard to checker.

I'd have to agree with Mauser98. That is also Jack Belk's formula he sent to me. Lasts forever and looks great.

The Pro-Custom oil mentioned above isn't straight tung oil. It's a combination of tung oil with urethane mixed in. I haven't put mine to the test yet. The stock was being checkered this hunting season. But, The stuff looks to be the real deal for a field use wooden stock. The finish seems very hard, scuff resistant and I'm sure it'll repel water as it has urathane in the mix. The biggest reason I choose it though is it's easy to work with and gives great results. When I bought this stuff, I also bought a bottle of Permalyn sealer and finish in case I didn't like the pro-custom oil. David L. Westbrook reccomends it in his book, Professional Stockmaking as a finish for a hard use rifle. He sites that it gives good results, is pleasing to look at and it's tuff.

Here is a picture of mine after it's been finished with the custom-oil. It has a nice sheen but it's not shinny.

I'm in the final stages of refinishing a stock for the 3rd time. The first two times I used two different tung oil methods and although it looked like a million bucks it just did not last once I took it into the woods.
The third time I switched to a process I got from John Barsness.
I sanded the stock back to bare wood going from 100grit in steps to 220grit. Then applied a heavy coat of spar varnish. (He recommended McLoskey but they don't carry that around here so I bought MinWax Helmsman Spar Varnish Clear Satin instead) After letting it dry for 12 hours I sanded it back down to the wood using 0000 steel wool. Applied a second coat and again let it dry for 12 hours then wet sanded it with 400 grit paper and varnish making a light slurry. I let that dry overnight then steel wooled it smooth again. There were a few places I found where the pours were not filled yet so I wet sanded those areas again and steel wooled smooth when dry. Now here's the secret for the final two coats.
Apply them with a paper towel folded into a pad. You will not believe the smooth thin coat you get doing this, after the first coat I again steel wool the finish lightly then apply the final coat. I let these dry overnight. I again lightly steelwool the last coat and then after letting it dry a full 48 hours I rub it out with Brownells Triple F stock rubbing compound.
The finish appears to be handrubbed oil but tough as nails to the elements.
I'm sure this is going to last longer outdoors than the oil method it replaces.