I've used A&B short-chambered barrels on two Mausers. Both shoot poorly. 2.5" average on 5 shot groups.

I've shot Audette ladders. I found a load witht the .308 that'll sometimes throw a couple of 1.25" groups, but it'll throw wider the next group of 5.

I let the barrels cool between. I've tried cleaning between. I've pressure bedded. On the .308, I re-cut the crown. I trued the bolt lugs and receiver barrel shoulder. I left both barrels .005 short of the interior C-ring shoulder before crush-fitting the barrel (so probably .003 clearance).

The Krieger, Douglas, Lilja barrels I've used have thrown under an inch with very little load development, but they've been on non-Mauser (70 and 700, with one 2 piece stock single-shot) actions.

One Mauser's in an inexpensive Carbelite stock, the other's a wood stock I made from a semi-inlet.

Is there something I should try besides just rebarreling? Or should I give up on the barrels. I've heard lots of folks say they've had good luck with the Adams and Bennetts barrels. And the A&B's are button-rifled and air-gauged.

I thought about cutting off an inch and re-crowning? Set up the barrel to contact both shoulders? Thread the end of the barrels and make a muzzle break to act as a barrel weight?

Appreciate any thoughts.

Steve

"No matter how much I dig, the hole is still too deep"

My suggestion would be to quit digging! Start with a quality barrel, do a quality install and be done with it.

quote:

Originally posted by skl1:


The Krieger, Douglas, Lilja barrels I've used have thrown under an inch with very little load development

you answered your own question. I know several guys will pop up and praise the A&B barrels but the simple truth is you get what you pay for when it comes to barrels. I am sure A&B has produced barrels that have shot tiny little groups - but they will be in a very tiny minority. With the premium barrels the expectation is that all of their barrels will consistently shoot little groups.

If you think paying more for a premium barrel is not worth the expense - just look at the cost of ammo and time you have spent trying to get a poor barrel to shoot. You could have more than paid for a premium barrel that would perform for you from the start with what you have spent on ammo and components.

ab barrels generally shoot pretty good -- 358, 375, 416, and 458 ...

for 1/3 the price of "premium" barrels, what do you honestly expect?

Bill, they aren't the small minority ... or they'd never sell the second one to anyone... they generally shoot better than the factory barrel they replace...

hunting rifle.. 1 moa.. i don't CARE if it shoots better than that...

Try this: Buy one of those rubber Limbsaver barrel dampeners, install it following the directions, and see it your groups improve.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

for 1/3 the price of "premium" barrels, what do you honestly expect?

I expect exactly what you get with an A&B barrel: off center bores, a bore full of tooling marks, and accuracy that rarely does better than MOA.

With a premium barrel that has been properly installed to a properly prepared action I expect consistent accuracy well under MOA. The premium barrel will also give you much easier cleaning and far less susceptable to heavy copper fouling.

Yes a premium barrel costs considerably more than a bargain basement barrel. But with a premium barrel you are basically buying insurance for acceptable accuracy and ease of maintainence.

If I am going to go to the considerable expense of installing a new barrel - and it costs the same to install a premium as a cheapo - I am going to spend the extra $100=200 for a top end barrel that I know will live up to my expectations.

skl1 is a prime example of why not to gamble with a cheap barrel. He spent the money for a cheap barrel and the cost of installation and is now faced with either a rifle that shoots sub standard or having spend even more money for a replacement barrel and installation. He would have been considerable money ahead at this point - and also time and effort ahead - to have used a premium barrel from the start.

As for your comment about repeat A&B barrel customers: I know far more who bought one and will never buy another than who have bought more than one.

I'd say it depends on what you want. 2.5 MOA is adequate for most hunting of large game. If all you wanted was a gun to hunt with, you have one. And that is all they are sold as, so you haven't been gypped.


If you wanted a rifle to shoot bragging groups with, you should have bought a barrel likely to be capable of that. A&Bs may do that occasionally, but seldom can be relied on to do so on demand.

So, either way, you have actually got a couple of things from the purchases of them...hunting barrels, AND first-hand knowledge. If you are not past middle age, that probably is a bargain in the long run...especially the knowledge part.

If you are past middle age, well, you know the saying..."Too soon old, too late smart...."

BTW, this post is in no way meant to offend you or demean you. I've been there myself and had similar experiences with other inexpensive makes of the past. Luckily I was young....Take care, y'all....

The .308 was the first project I did, before I had a lathe. Hand turned the reamer to finish the headspace. I also used the gun as the platform to try new things. First welded bolt handle, first stock-bedding, first lathe crowing job, etc. I'm more than satisfied that I got my money's worth.

But I immediately bought 4 surplus Mauser actions and 4 A&B barrels. This is probably 7 or 8 years ago.

Once I worked with the other barrels, I was disappointed with the results I got on the A&B's. The .338 is particularly disappointing since I made the stock (to match the barrels contour) and rust blued the Left-handed Zastava action and barrel. It's beautiful, and I'd like to use it. But I'll probably never take a rifle that shoots that erratically hunting.

But folks like Jeffe are reporting good results (1.5" groups consistently would be okay with me for these). And while I've had good results with other barrels, my sample size and experience aren't so great that I discount that it might not be something else I've done wrong.

I'll try the deresonator idea. I've got a .338 Krieger barrel that's got a pretty similar contour. I just hate to mess up the fairly decent wood to metal fit I managed on the stock.

Steve

Another issue to consider is the problem that a short chamber presents. NO TWO REAMERS ARE EXACTLY THE SAME. Soooo when you run the second reamer in to deepen the short chamber you have the risk of altering the dimensions of the original chamber & more importantly alignment issues. It is FAR better to get a DEEP chambered barrel such as the excellent barrels offered by Lothar Walther. Then all that is required to correct the headspace is to face off the chamber face & barrel shoulder. That job should cost less to since no chambering is involved.

Maybe your barreled action doesn't like the "fairly decent wood to metal fit". Before you toss the barrel, I would recheck the fit, the bedding and the crown. Use a boresighter to check the fit of the stock and cut your crown from the center, out.

Why would you consider cutting off an inch and then recrowning?

There is an old saying and it might be considered by some to be a little harsh but "don't throw good money after bad"..... Start over and do it right...

quote:

Originally posted by Westpac:
Maybe your barreled action doesn't like the "fairly decent wood to metal fit". Before you toss the barrel, I would recheck the fit, the bedding and the crown. Use a boresighter to check the fit of the stock and cut your crown from the center, out.

Why would you consider cutting off an inch and then recrowning?

Westpac,

For me, "fairly decent wood to metal fit" still required a full-length skim coat of acraglass. I just meant it wasn't gappy like I'm afraid it might be with a barrel transplant.

How can I check the stock fit with a boresighter?

I'd cut off an inch of barrel and recrown in the hopes it'd change the barrel harmonics. My understanding is that Browning/Winchester guys had some success with this in getting poorly grouping barrels to shoot, and it spawned the BOSS system.

Thanks,
Steve

D Humbarger,

Hadn't thought of the two different reamers issue. Thanks.

Steve

2 things, maybe only 1 if you're lucky.

Firelap using jacketed bullets at extremely low velocities, or

Rebarrel with a better barrel.
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by skl1:
I've used A&B short-chambered barrels on two Mausers. Both shoot poorly. 2.5" average on 5 shot groups.

The Krieger, Douglas, Lilja barrels I've used have thrown under an inch with very little load development.

Is there something I should try besides just rebarreling? Or should I give up on the barrels. I've heard lots of folks say they've had good luck with the Adams and Bennetts barrels. And the A&B's are button-rifled and air-gauged.

Appreciate any thoughts.

Steve

Your experience as explained is exactly the reason why I avoid A&B barrels. It can't be said better than that. Some people are apparantly satisfied with them, but I flat out don't believe they are getting the accuracy they claim.

I would buy a rifle with a factory barrel long before considering an A&B barrel.

As said above, you have answered your own question. Sell the barrels to Jeffeosso, but be forwarned he's cheap.

And, as suggested, start over with some good quality long chambered barrels.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by skl1:

How can I check the stock fit with a boresighter?

Take the barreled action out of the stock and attach a borsighter to the barrel and note the position of the cross hairs. Without removing the boresighter, put it back in the stock and re-check the cross hairs position. Movement indicates stress.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
...I flat out don't believe they are getting the accuracy they claim.

3 Shot, 416 ab barrel, 416 accrel on a springfield.. sh!tty weather day.. cold, windy, raining, and late in the day

100 yards, 2x7 scope.. off sand bags, and in a hurry to get home...



ab barreled 458 AR .. this one is cheating.. its only at 50 yards... and just 10 shots doing load dev, with a 5X scope

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

...

Sell the barrels to Jeffeosso, but be forwarned he's cheap.

KB

tis true!

I built a .308 on a K98 action with an A&B barrel. Groups were in the 1.5 + inch range until I used the Tubbs lapping kit. Now I have been able to get every bullet I tried to shoot under an inch.

quote:

Originally posted by Westpac:

quote:

Originally posted by skl1:

How can I check the stock fit with a boresighter?

Take the barreled action out of the stock and attach a borsighter to the barrel and note the position of the cross hairs. Without removing the boresighter, put it back in the stock and re-check the cross hairs position. Movement indicates stress.

Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by Donald Nelson:
I built a .308 on a K98 action with an A&B barrel. Groups were in the 1.5 + inch range until I used the Tubbs lapping kit. Now I have been able to get every bullet I tried to shoot under an inch.

Thanks, Donald. I'll look at the kit, too.

Steve

SKL1

98 Mausers were designed for the barrel to seat against the C ring. It does not hurt to contact both the C ring and the front of the receiver but it is not advisable to seat on the front of the action only.

To check your bedding: attach a dial indicator to the barrel so that the stylus is indicating on the fore end. Tighten and loosen the front action screw. Then tighten and loosen the back action screw. If bedding is correct, you will observe no more than .003 inch movement. If more then the action is not bedded properly. If it shows zero the action is stuck. Not good. If you are using glass bedding it good to bed the first 2 inches of the barrel. You want contact on the bottom and rear of the recoil lug but not the front and sides of it.

Some A&B barrels will respond to hand lapping. Since you are capable of chambering a barrel you can pull the barrel and hand lap it. Do a little research and read up on it. What have you got to loose? If you are a careful workman you will not enlarge the muzzle.

just shot 2 ab barrels, 375 ruger and 375 hh in about the worst possible condition..
full length barrels, untrimmed
ab "crown" from midway
NO BREAK IN PERIOD
enfield actions and military triggers
trigger binding on one of the actions due to stock
bedded around front screw ONLY (mega stick 2 part epoxy)
cobbled up scope bases
factory ammo

now, i have to admit, the on with the binding trigger wasn't sub moa (on shots 6,7,8, and 10,11,12 down the barrel).. but 1.1 ish is pretty close

the other? shots 6,7,8 and 11,12,13 (adjustments for missing shots) are sub moa...

just saying

Its amazing to me how all of the so called experts put down the A & B barrels without knowing anything at all about how they were installed, or how they are bedded, or even whether the shooter himself his capable of shooting good groups.

People around here tell me I am full of shit all of the time, but this time I get to say it.

I'm 2 for 2 with AB barrels so for what its worth, I consider them to be a good value for my shadetree projects. If I were building a competition rig, I'd use a big name barrel but for hunting rifles they suit me just fine.

My biggest gripe with them is their contours and lengths. I would prefer the F14 to be an inch longer. The F34 is too heavy for a small bore sporter and doesn't have enough parallel area near the chamber to allow a vise to get a good grip.

On a related topic, has anyone tried Brownell's short chambered barrels yet? I'm currently using one for a 270 but am not yet ready to test shoot it. I'd like to hear what people think about them.

Dan

I've installed five A&B barrels, 6.5, 7mm. 30 cal, 35 cal, and 416. All shoot under an inch, groups and some shoot just over half inch groups. Note, all of these groups were after doing some load development, not factory ammo. I think if the barrel was installed by someone who knows what he is doing, and you do your part working up a load and experimenting with different recopies, you will find a load that your rifle likes, and you are happy with.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Its amazing to me how all of the so called experts put down the A & B barrels without knowing anything at all about how they were installed, or how they are bedded, or even whether the shooter himself his capable of shooting good groups.

People around here tell me I am full of shit all of the time, but this time I get to say it.

I can't belive I'm doin this but....+1

I'd be sure you listen to Craftman's comment too; a lot of Mausers get barreled like Remingtons and that isn't a good thing. Butt up against the inner ring.

quote:

People around here tell me I am full of shit all of the time,

Oh come on wrf, all the time.

I have used A&B barrels for several projects for myself and customers, probably 10 or 12. All shot MOA or better. For a hunting rifle they are a good value. They are always a little harder to clean than a premium barrel until you fire lap them. That also seems to help accuracy. Most of my customers want a premium barrel so that is what I use most, but A&B barrels don't scare me.......Tom

FYI, for anybody who reads this thread: I used some of the bedding tests (checking pos w/ boresighter in and out of stock,etc) suggested, found some problems on each, relieved the bedding on both rifles. I went to the range today, and both rifles fired 3 5 shot groups all 1.25" or better. It was the idiot on the trigger (and the AcraGlass) who was to blame.

quote:

Your experience as explained is exactly the reason why I avoid A&B barrels. It can't be said better than that. Some people are apparantly satisfied with them, but I flat out don't believe they are getting the accuracy they claim.

I take this to mean you have never tried A&B barrels because you just know they are too cheap to shoot well.

I have used at least 10, and all shot well. A few around an inch, most closer to 1/2.

I build around 10 rifles a year as a hobby, with 80-90% being Mausers. Basically, I install the barrel hard against the C-ring with no contact on the front at all, checked with a feeler gauge. I glass the action from the front of the magazine box to about 6" in front of the reciever. I float the rest of the barrel, as a general rule, unless there is an obviating reason. I piller the back action screw, bed the underside of the trigger guard so it is in full contact all the way, and glass the rear action over the piller so that there is no movement when tightening the rear screw. I torque the front screw to full torque then tighten the rear screw just enough to prevent loosening.
I don't use prechambered barrels, just cut from scratch. I make sure there is no pressure anywhere else on the action.

So far it has worked. My personal opinion is that, in this day of modern manufacturing, the whole barrel thing is way overblown, unless you are a bench rest or competitive target shooter. I have used, in the last couple of years, barrels from Douglas, Montana Rifleman, A&B, McGowan and others, along with a few from unknown sources. None have failed to shoot very far from what I consider the practical accuracy limit of a M98 sporter platform. One Douglas heavy barrel on a single shot mauser will shoot into .25" all day.

The only barrels I have had problems with over the years are a few Shilens and a bunch of Remington factory barrels.

When it comes down to it, most problems really come down to load selection and the basic ability to shoot. Some rifles are very picky as to loads, others will shoot about anything. By far the biggest problem is shooting ability. I go to my local range which has 2400 members, and on any day, at least 75% of the shooters are not capable of sighting in their rifle without assistance. Most have never fired a rifle from any position but a bench, and really don't understand that there are different techniques even for that, and that different rifles respond to varying techniques.

I've owned two A&B barrels. Both chambered in 257 Roberts. Both would pile 110 grain Nosler Accubonds on top of each other at 100 yards. I think they make a great barrel!

I've used 3 A&B Barrels. I ordered 2 .30 F34 blanks and 1 .22 centerfire blank. The first .30 blank I threaded and chambered for .308 and installed it on my son's Swedish Mauser. We also installed an older redfield reciever sight, no scope. It shot 1.25"- 1.5" until he fire lapped it with the Tubb bullet kit from Brownell's, now it is .75" and much easier to clean. The second one I threaded and chambered for .308 also but I installed it on a Turkish Mod 98. I did put a scope on that rifle and it would shoot .5"-.625" without lapping. I always cut the barrel tennon length on a 98 Mauser exactly the same length as the distance from the reciever face to the diaphram face so the barrel tightens on both surfaces equally. The third barrel I installed on an H&R Topper Handi-Rifle and chambered it for .22K Hornet. It shoots sub 1" groups also. These are all hunting rifles we built for ourselves on a tight budget, and the barrels have proved more than adequate and we have been very pleased.

CAN a A&B (or Shaw) shoot well IF properly installed? yes
Can a "premium" barrel shoot like crap if poorly installed? yes

The problem is that those that install A&B's tend to NOT install them properly.
The A&B's are still poorly made copper fouling sewer pipes, and all the install care in the world won't cure that problem

If a gunsmith or barrel plumber tells you he can't install an an barrel as it won't ever shoot right, he is correct. This says nothing about the barrel though

I am still somewhat stunned when I read of people "improperly" installed barrels on Mausers. 49,000,000 of them left Mauser plants mounted correctly on the torque shoulder or also called the flange. It does "look" better to torque on the front of the action and if trued will result in a good install. It is uneasecarily difficult to try and torque on both surfaces.

But what do I know? I always do Mausers on the flange. If it was good enough for Herr Mauser it's good enough for me

If I was building military Mausers on a production basis I would fit the barrels as Herr Mauser designed them as they would have no shoulder on the barrel to tighten against the reciever face. The barrel shoulders were generaly only .010"-.015" larger than the barrel thread OD. I measure the reciever face to shoulder with a depth mike in several places around the face to deteremine if they are true to one another, if not I machine them so they are. Building one rifle at a time I see no reason to leave a gap, no matter how small, when I can take the time to fit it properly to begin with. If that is improper barrel fitting, oh well. I guess I will always be a barrel plumber.

Have several Mauser actions with an A&B barrel. All shoot a tolerable 1", sometimes more, sometimes less group at 100yds. Also have a Ruger tang safety rifle in 7x57 with a F54 A&B barrel. 1/2" groups or sometimes better, common with it.