FYI to all

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=60714627

Takedown??????????

Where?????

Bill, it could be like some of the H&H takedowns I have seen, with oversize guard screws that simply allow you to take the barrelled action out of the stock? Nice looking gun in front of the pistol grip. By the way, what would you characterize the walnut as, French, English ??

Dooesn't look "takedownable" to me either, 'cept for separating the stock from the action just like any other bolt action.

Except for the barreled action, there is nothing original about this gun: not a take down, restocked, reblued, additional engraving added, bolt handle, safety, scope rings new, etc.

That stock is a hybridized, cross-pollinated, half-bred, still-born, semi-monte-carloed, shadow-lined, British-ovaled freak of nature.

And I, too, don't see how that's any kind of a take down.

quote:

That stock is a hybridized, cross-pollinated, half-bred, still-born, semi-monte-carloed, shadow-lined, British-ovaled freak of nature.

These were my thoughts, but I thought I would quietly post it and see if I was nuts [well I already know that is true, but...]


Why is the cheekpiece so far forward?? Or is it something else making it look that way???

It's a Holland style takedown. The tang at the rear of the action is taken off. This is piece is held in the woodwork by the rear action screw. The action fits into the woodwork and a tongue on the action locates into the piece in the stock. The large screw at the front of the floorplate holds the action in the wood. When it's taken down, the barrel and action are removed from the wood, just as you would if you took down a normal rifle for shipping. The difference being, you can take this one apart by undoing a single screw, and it should return to zero when it's re-assembled.

william jackman jeffery must be rolling in his grave to have his name associated with this...
this... this...

Man, this is a tough crowd! Certainly not my cup of tea, but I give points for originality. I've seen a lot worse.

If one takes closer look at pictures on the linkpage(extract below), one can make out a line/gap in the tang that goes right up to the wood(90deg.) ,combine that with the fact that is has a proud forward action screw,gives good basic clue for it to be TD.
Most Folk with good knowledge of established British riflemakers, would recognise this without much trouble.(cause youd know what to look for)
Let us Know if you Cannot see the tang break-join

I do like the missmatched and chewed out scoperingcap screws,its a nice touch.

SDH,

Look closely at the profile shots of the action, you can see the gap under the cocking piece. The oversize front screw is also a give away. Naturally a screw turn would be provided by the maker when new, however the design is such that the rifle could be assembled or taken down using a coin.

A friend of mine has a 275 Holland in this style of take down. It seems to work OK, however fellows with a passion for 'smithing or engineering don't like it as it's taking the 'easy' way out.

quote:

Originally posted by SDH:
and the takedown comment is total, and meaningless speculation.

And so is this statement.

Aussie Dave have explained the take-down procedure.
It is a well known take down system. Like the switc-barrel system of a Hawken rifle.

The shape of the stock is rather original, yet well done. English stockmakers were hanging in mid-air for some time, not knowing if they should stick to the old, or hang on to the new fancy stock-making that saw the light in USA in the last part of the 1900's.(1950-1990)
For all we know this stockcould have been made to customers spesification.

Odd shape, but well made.

Here is a brand new takedown(US standard) from Westley Richards, and in my opinion, this is worse. The lines and shapes are just not right, compared to the work of people like Duane Viebe.Particulary the whole pistolgrip area.
But, again, wery well fitted and finnished.
Price? 23,000 dollars.


And then, to compare, from Dakota:

Okay - what I like about it.. .the wood is very nice, but I bet someone paid WAY too much for it.

That stock is PROOF that Roy Weatherby has a bastard son of a stockmaker running around in england.

I haven't ever seen an "english cheek piece monte carlo" before...

English version


Weatherby version



not only do your get boogered up scope ring screws, you have a BONUS missing one


Takedown? looks more like "large front screw requires DIFFERENT screwdriver than rear to disassemble" or TWO tools, not one.

I do like the wood, though.

8k for a that? in "cut off, La" (a town so small I or my born in La wife don't know)...

i'll give him 2k, which is for the action, and perhaps I can rework the monte birmingham stock

jeffe

Bent,
If I could make this rifle, as a takedown (working on getting better)



I would very pleased... I would mve the cheek piece back about 2cm, and it would not extend as far. on a takedown, I love this stock... the forearm could be a hair thinner, on a standard rifle...

jeffe

Yea, well, taste is not right or wrong just different!
I have here squared out the area that IMO ruins a good stock.

To skinny grip compared to the rest of the stock and the length of the grip, and the angle of the gripcap is way to steep. I lke Jerry Fishers theory that a line parallell with the grip-cap shoud end 1,5" from the heel of the butt.
And I agree that the cheek-piece is placed to far forward.

But, related to topic, this is all personal opinions. Even english gunmakers listen to their customers, and I see no reason to think the top pic in this thread is not the original stock.

But Jeffe, seriously, do you really doubt it is a take down???

Bent,
I agree the grip isn't perfect... .and I probably couldn't make it "perfect" but I would change a couple small details.

On the other one being a take down? I don't doubt it is designed to be a rapid disassembly... but "take on" like the WR in the picture above, it is not. the barrel is still attached to the action, and the forearm is still on the stock... only in stretching the definition would I call that anything but a "quickchange"

jeffe

.

Alf,
Could you show some pics of this take down method. I can't see how barrel can be turned out with action still in stock unless the action somehow hinges upward from rear. The stock appears to be inletted to barrel contour. Removal forward appears not possible nor unscrewing. If you have pics or drawings it would be appreciated. As to the grip on the Westley Richards being to thin, if you have a small hand like I do they feel better thin. I think the pistol grip area is typical of lots of English guns. They seem to put a crease at rear of bottom of pistol grip that runs up into stock and set the cap at a pronounced angle. They then follow this crease with the checkering which in my eye gives a poor appearance. Rigby seems to use this quite a lot.The curve and top of grip on this rifle are really rather a nice open grip.

/

Alf,
Thank you very much,that would of course make perfect sense. I just assumed this was an original gun given the price being asked.

okay, so it is a remove the screw, then take out the barrel, i would assume the barrel UNSCREWS.

it aint unscrewing from that stock.. the quarterrib would hit the forearm in about 1/3 of a turn....


now, ifthe forearm came off too......

jeffe

Fellows,

The barrel doesn't unscrew. The barrel and action are held in by one screw, the large one at the front of the action. When disassembled one part is the stock, with the bottom metal firmly held in place, the takedown screw (which is captive so it can not fall out, and the rear portion of the action (this piece is about an inch long), the other part is the barrel and action.

Someone must have pics, please post them and put this one to bed.

I have put some pictures of the Jeff.rifle in question, up above in my first post.

Below is a fine example with very good closeup zoom feature for detail:
HollandHolland375H&H Fixedbarrel-TD M98.
Zoom all the way in on the dissasembled cased rifle receiver tang and the assembled rifle tang.

http://www.bruun-rasmussen.dk/search.do;jsessionid=7F0F...id=513&iid=300141338

HartmannWeiss offered to do TD-Fixedbarrel or TD-ScrewoutBarrelForendattached/springloaded locklatch.
The term takedown,for a rifle properly designed to be so, to me means to be able reduce a weapons package length resonably quick&easy with the minimum off fuss,minimum of components,preferably no tools,no loose seperated screws, pins, etc that you can misplace jeopardising its reassembly. Whether it be through one plane(barelled action away from stock) or another plane(barrel&forend away from receiver),they are both in effect takedown. Takedown/Quickswitchbarrel refers to more particular systems where the barrel(s)specifically come away from the receiver.
Some prefer the more basic-less margin for error barrelaction away from stock with fixed scope.
ReimerYohannsen requires that you remove the forend then remove(slide)the barrel.
Other companies do simple take downs on single shots and lever guns where the buttstock is removed.
There is no gunmakers industry definition that Im aware of, that states a rifle must have a QD barrel to be considered a takedown. Some people dont need to chop a rifle exactly in half at the receiver face, other TD methods are adequate for what they require.
Although if a mans got the money and finds the right person to do the job, a screw out barrel and QD scope system can be surprisingly accurate and consistent.

/

As usual, thanks to Alf for valuable information.

But,

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
it aint unscrewing from that stock.. the quarterrib would hit the forearm in about 1/3 of a turn....

jeffe hit the nail here.

I am pretty sure Aussie Dave and Woodjack has it right, that this is a Hollands take down system.

ALF,
Is it not possible they made one with the Hollands patent, even though it is not in their catalog? Could the serial number verify its orign?

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:
Yea, well, taste is not right or wrong just different!
I have here squared out the area that IMO ruins a good stock.

To skinny grip compared to the rest of the stock and the length of the grip, and the angle of the gripcap is way to steep. I lke Jerry Fishers theory that a line parallell with the grip-cap shoud end 1,5" from the heel of the butt.
And I agree that the cheek-piece is placed to far forward.

But, related to topic, this is all personal opinions. Even english gunmakers listen to their customers, and I see no reason to think the top pic in this thread is not the original stock.

But Jeffe, seriously, do you really doubt it is a take down???

Right on, Bent. Right on!

Alf article reads

quote:

The barrel is detached by loosening this stud, opening the bolt and simple unscrewing the barrel, which comes away with the fore-end attached to it.

This rifle certainly is NOT an unscrewing barrel and foreend.. there is no seperation point.


Can the barreled action be removed by turning ONE (instead of 2 .. yeah, that's a saving) screw? Don't care.. especially if it leads to the poor inletting that woodjack points out... not a SOUL here would accept a rifle from SAVAGE that had an 1/8" proud metal on the tang... don't let your nostaligia get in the way of reason.

So, lets be clear on what this rifle is... it has one screw and a bedding block to return the gun to nearly the same point of aim, and no other features above that over a stock gun...


So, if you BEDDED a bubba'd up 1950's styled 1917, and did a good job of it, you "effort" with be "remove another screw"...

Or, in short, every bedded rifle is a "takedown" in the fashion of this rifle.

Here's a good artical on takedowns.
http://www.outdoorlife.com/outdoor/gear/gunvault/articl...19912,575989,00.html


THIS is a take down rifle, though not to my tastes


This rifle is less of a "take down" than the marlin papoose /ar7

jeffe

/

Alf,
have I told you today that "I lUV you MAN!!"

these are EXACTLY what i was looking for... and needed!!

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:

Hot dang!

That is what I call lines of a sculpture!
But this can not be done with the rifle in question!

Jeffe, I hear you man, but to me a takedown rifle is a rifle that separates for easier travelling - without tools. A coin is all that is required for the Hollands Patent. One screw, and you are done.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Don't care.. especially if it leads to the poor inletting that woodjack points out... not a SOUL here would accept a rifle from SAVAGE that had an 1/8" proud metal on the tang... don't let your nostaligia get in the way of reason.

Were ever have Woodjack pointed out bad inletting?
He points out the slot were the tang is separated!

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
John Speed: Page 227:

Jeffery 333 with unscrew type take down, nut on right side of front bridge, the forestock separates from the aft.

John Speed: page 232.

Westley Richards Where whole barrel plus action detaches from stock attached by a cross pin in forestock.

Westley Richards Centenary catalog 1812-1912.
Shows same as Speed page 232

Speed page 233:

Another version of the unscrew barrel, this time with a latch holding fore stock to aft

Speed page 238

H&H with unscrew barrel fore separates from aft and the screw is where the front action screw would be.

Speed page 240

Unscrew barrel, locking screw on right side of front bridge.

Speed page 428

Krieghoff 375 H&H with stock take down similar to the Westley Richards

Rigby 275 with unscrew barrel stud on left side front ring

Bent,
if you or I inletted a rifle and left this amount of action sticking up out of the wood, we would be LAUGHED at...



I do have to disagree on the nominclature... a stock and rifle that come out, without the barrel(s) coming off is not a takedown to me.. SURE, it's nice to take it down that way, but not what I would pay a CENT extra for...

but, then again, maybe getting it out of the Monte Birmingham stock (english "style" cheek piece on a monte carlo style stock) is a good thing!!

Here's the story... if someone said "jeffe, for X dollars, I'll make you a take down.".. and I get a bedded rifle with a rear pillar and a quarter screw.... well, let's say I wouldn't think it was the connector that was getting SCREWED!!

not for me, wrong name, imho.. but it's not a big thing. the rifle has WAY too may flaws in the way it goes together before we get down to the way it comes apart

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Bent,
if you or I inletted a rifle and left this amount of action sticking up out of the wood, we would be LAUGHED at...
jeffe

Holy shit, I did not look closely enough to se that tang sticking up above the action! My bad, and I take your point.

And today this is not what we think of as a take-down, I'll give you that to.

But if we look back to the American gun-history there are plenty of guns with similar "take-down" patents, like Winchster Mod 61, Mod 63, Rem mod 25, etc.
If called a takedow when new, is it not strange that it stick over the years.

The question, when in doubt, must be; "What KIND of take-down system?"

Another way of making TakeDown

http://www.schultzlarsen.com/take_down.htm