I had a hard time deciding where to post this....and the only other place it fit in was the "big bore" section, but obviously I wasn't going to do that.

Anyway....

Does anyone on here have experience with the integrally suppressed Ruger 77/44 bolt action?

I am seriously thinking about getting one next year....

try going down to the supressor forum. somebody should have tried one

hit craigslist, type in night vision and hog or hogs

the subsonic 44 mag has been done.. quite.. trajectory a bit better than a rock

I had a 77/44 once - never again. It set the standard for the most inaccurate factory rifle I ever shot or owned. Since then I have talked with a few fellows with the same experience. I highly recommend to not use that platform. It's junk.

Instead, if subsonic is the goal, this is a suggestion.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti....aspx?Item=245966240

The 45 ACP is naturally sub-sonic, and cans are cheaper too.

The range of the 45 ACP is somewhat limited - maybe 50 yds. Another option is a single shot 44 Mag. Heavy bullets can be pushed faster than a 45 ACP can produce, and still be sub-sonic.

I've been pondering a sub-sonic/suppressed big bore for some time. Where I'm at right now, after a lot of thought, is a short barreled (16") single shot in 45/70. Starting sub-sonic, it has enough thump with a 350 - 405 gr soft nose bullet to use on hogs and deer out to 100 - maybe 125 yds, in places where legal. Calculated, a 405 gr .458 bullet, starting sub-sonic, has about as much energy at 100 yds as the full power 44 mag factory load 240gr at the muzzel.

With the 45/70, handloaded, the advantage is that it can be pushed right up to the threshold of sub-sonic, but not exceeding, using a cronograph. With the heavy bullets, I don't think that can be done with the 45 ACP.

I'm saving my money now for the suppressor and the license. I'm thinking one of the 458 SOCOM cans will work. The 45/70 barrel is no problem, and very affordable, considering the alternatives. I already have an Encore action, and plan on having MGM make the barrel for me and thread it. But I'll get the can first, then have the barrel threaded to fit it.

There are three advantages of the single shot that I can think of. One is that it's less expensive than alternatives. I consider the can the same price whatever the platform. Another is the single shot is quiter to operate. Also, the single shot makes a shorter more compact rifle, with a 16" barrel. Considering the extra 10 inches or so for the length of the suppressor, overall length is an important consideration.

I suspect an Encore pistol, in 45/70, with a 12"-15" barrel would be interesting, if legal.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
I had a 77/44 once - never again. It set the standard for the most inaccurate factory rifle I ever shot or owned. Since then I have talked with a few fellows with the same experience. I highly recommend to not use that platform. It's junk.

Instead, if subsonic is the goal, this is a suggestion.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti....aspx?Item=245966240

The 45 ACP is naturally sub-sonic, and cans are cheaper too.

The range of the 45 ACP is somewhat limited - maybe 50 yds. Another option is a single shot 44 Mag. Heavy bullets can be pushed faster than a 45 ACP can produce, and still be sub-sonic.

I've been pondering a sub-sonic/suppressed big bore for some time. Where I'm at right now, after a lot of thought, is a short barreled (16") single shot in 45/70. Starting sub-sonic, it has enough thump with a 350 - 405 gr soft nose bullet to use on hogs and deer out to 100 - maybe 125 yds, in places where legal. Calculated, a 405 gr .458 bullet, starting sub-sonic, has about as much energy at 100 yds as the full power 44 mag factory load 240gr at the muzzel.

With the 45/70, handloaded, the advantage is that it can be pushed right up to the threshold of sub-sonic, but not exceeding, using a cronograph. With the heavy bullets, I don't think that can be done with the 45 ACP.

I'm saving my money now for the suppressor and the license. I'm thinking one of the 458 SOCOM cans will work. The 45/70 barrel is no problem, and very affordable, considering the alternatives. I already have an Encore action, and plan on having MGM make the barrel for me and thread it. But I'll get the can first, then have the barrel threaded to fit it.

There are three advantages of the single shot that I can think of. One is that it's less expensive than alternatives. I consider the can the same price whatever the platform. Another is the single shot is quiter to operate. Also, the single shot makes a shorter more compact rifle, with a 16" barrel. Considering the extra 10 inches or so for the length of the suppressor, overall length is an important consideration.

I suspect an Encore pistol, in 45/70, with a 12"-15" barrel would be interesting, if legal.

KB

GREAT info....thank you very much. I never even thought about a 45/70 for suppression. I am not interested in the Beretta, due to it being semi-auto. I want something in either bolt-action or single-shot.....so that it will be ULTRA quiet.

This will mostly be a gun for shooting hogs.....along with some culling of exotic does.

There is one major challenge however, and that is.....I do not handload, and do not plan to (of course that could change at some point). Are there any "low power" 45/70 factory loads that will be subsonic (perhaps cowboy action loads)? The "lowest power" loads I know of are the cheap Remington 405 gr. loads, which are still somewhere around 1200-1300 fps I believe.

If there aren't any sub-sonic factory loads....does anyone know a good custom ammunition company that will load some heavy bullets for the 45-70 to make them sub-sonic?

I think some of these links are sub-sonic cowboy ammo for the 45/70, especially the last one - a 500gr load, which would be interesting.

OOPS, I just noticed that the last one is loaded with a black powder substitute, which may account for the low velocity.

Although they are probably not the best choices, I didn't edit out these links, because they are still useful representations of the diversity of the ammo available for the 45-70. There is a large variety available. It's a popular cartridge. The short barrel Encore can be useful even without the suppressor, with a thread protector cap, using some of the mild loads. I doubt the Buffalo Bore loads will be any fun with a light rifle/short barrel, and require some serious hearing protection.

http://www.grafs.com/retail/ca...duct/productId/11962

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewP...productNumber=860270

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewP...productNumber=605645

http://www.midwayusa.com/brows...*690***&brandId=2524

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewP...productNumber=840502

The 45/70 is very versitle and agreeable to handload for. Useful .458 bullets are also plentiful, for the low vel loads.

I'm sure that there are several custom ammo loaders who will make you a batch to your specs. If using a suppressor, I would recommend a jacketed bullet, like the 400gr Speer or the 405gr Remington bullet. The reason for the jacket recommendation is to help avoid damage to the inside of the suppresor from fragments of the lubricant spinning off and hitting the baffels. The cans cost too much to take a chance, and jacketed bullets are a small expense overall. The Speers and the Remingtons have very soft lead flat noses.

A load that may have some interest, depending on the velocity attainable with 400gr bullets, would involve Trail Boss powder. That's a fast powder, and may be well suited in the 45/70 for sub-sonic loads in a short barrel suppressed. It would have to be tested to find out what's possible with it.

Trail Boss is a powder that should not be compressed, and it's very bulky. The ideal load will probably be right up to the base of the bullet, with no compression. I'm estimating it to be somewhere close to max sub-sonic velocity with a 400gr bullet. But that will have to be tested over a cronograph to find out for sure if it's fast enough, and adjust the load accordingly. Less powder can be used to slow the velocity if necessary, however more powder is not an option, since this powder should not be compressed according to the Mfg.

SR 4759 is another fast powder, designed especially for reduced loads. I'm sure it would work well for sub-sonic 45/70 loads, even though there will be a lot of extra space left inside the case. I think fast powder is the key to help make a quieter load, although I have not yet tested that notion. It just makes sense to me that the greater the consumption of the powder charge inside the barrel the better, and fast powders just have to be more suitable for that than slower powders. It may not matter so much, untill we start talking about suppressors.

Just curious....are hard-cast bullets not good to use with a suppressor? For the 77/44....I was considering using these:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewP...productNumber=915418

I think they would be heavy enough and strong enough to penetrate a large hog, if needed. But if they should not be used with a suppressor, I will have to figure something else out.

Cast bullets can blow a lot of bullet lube into the can which will build up with powder residue. Not a big deal; just more cleaning. Kube is right about the older 77/44 rifles but Ruger seems to have improved them somewhat. If you want to try one call Houston Armory and ask Kris if you can try the one they keep around the shop.

Although the 44 Mag is a great choice, it's a matter of range and thump. Obviously the heavier .458 will not only make a bigger hole, but penetrate well out to maybe 100 yds. Anyway, that's about as far as I would trust it, and that's far enough. The 44 Mag is simply more restrictive, considering both running at sub-sonic from the muzzel. Both will require familiarity with judging range, and holdover. Sighted in at 75 yds zero, the drop is about 4" at 100 yds for the 45/70. Self restrain in avoiding the long shots is necessary, IMO, for either set-up, just more of it for the 44 mag.

That's why I simply have no use for a suppressed sub-sonic 308 for example. Even though hitting the target is easily accomplished at 100yds or so, there just ain't enough thump to do the job right on game animals.

With a good hit, the 45/70 and sub-sonic 400gr Speers ought to be close to a sure thing for deer and hogs inside 100 yds. And without a lot of meat damage, blast or recoil.

KB

I've shot a couple of the new 77/44's and they've shot well with both 44 special and 44 mag ammo, oddly the 44 special shot VERY well at 1- 1 1/4 at 100 yds 3 shot groups. A 300 grn 44 bullet at 1000 fps will do the trick for you. I've shot enough critters with a 45 long colt with a 300 grn at that vel to know a good hit will kill without expansion. If you are talking headshots or neck, you are likely to be inside 50-60 yds for sure thing hits, and a powerfull cartridge isnt needed.

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
Cast bullets can blow a lot of bullet lube into the can which will build up with powder residue. Not a big deal; just more cleaning. Kube is right about the older 77/44 rifles but Ruger seems to have improved them somewhat. If you want to try one call Houston Armory and ask Kris if you can try the one they keep around the shop.

How do you go about cleaning an integrally suppressed rifle?

quote:

Originally posted by Eland Slayer:
How do you go about cleaning an integrally suppressed rifle?

Good question.

I never thought about it before, since I always figured that the ability to take the can apart and clean it is essential. Anything that defeats that isn't even on the table for consideration, which leads back to my suggestions of a short single shot carbine with the detachable can attached to the muzzel of the barrel. I presumed that any suppressor worth having is made so it can be opened up for cleaning.

Until I learn otherwise, that's my opinion on the subject.

KB

They can be a pain to clean, some will not warranty the surpressor if taken apart. Best to find out what style you are looking at getting. Small arms review has covered the cleaning of the differant types, you could check there for info. Some of the gromet/baffle types they plug the chamber and fill with Kroil and let set overnight. you need to know what they are filled with before you can learn how to clean them.

quote:

Originally posted by Eland Slayer:

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
Cast bullets can blow a lot of bullet lube into the can which will build up with powder residue. Not a big deal; just more cleaning. Kube is right about the older 77/44 rifles but Ruger seems to have improved them somewhat. If you want to try one call Houston Armory and ask Kris if you can try the one they keep around the shop.

How do you go about cleaning an integrally suppressed rifle?

The sleeve unscrews. They are a suppressor built around the barrel and disassemble very similarly to screw-on jobs. It will come with a spanner to unscrew the end cap.

I think the big deal to consider when comparing integral 44 Mag to integral 45-70 is going to be cost unless you utilize a single shot 45-70. If you go with a lever gun you might as well use a screw-on due the lack of barrel length to work with after the magazine tube. To get the same db reduction you're going to end up extending past the muzzle and now you're getting into unwieldy lengths and handling issues. The 77/44 is real common in the integral business because it makes such a nice compact package for the available power.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by Eland Slayer:
How do you go about cleaning an integrally suppressed rifle?

Good question.

I never thought about it before, since I always figured that the ability to take the can apart and clean it is essential. Anything that defeats that isn't even on the table for consideration, which leads back to my suggestions of a short single shot carbine with the detachable can attached to the muzzel of the barrel. I presumed that any suppressor worth having is made so it can be opened up for cleaning.

Until I learn otherwise, that's my opinion on the subject.

KB

Actually the welded cans are considered the "best", especially for full auto fire. The cans are soaked as a whole and dried out (dunk and drain method). Really good screw-together cans are almost as good. Mediocre cans can have poor tolerances and misalign when reassembled, causing bullet strikes to the baffles. Hence the voided warranty theback40 referenced.

Modern clean burning powders and jacketed bullets require infrequent cleaning anyway. 22 LR cans are among the dirtiest and they can go quite few rounds before they have to be cleaned. The integral designs maintain alignment due to the amount of barrel actually in the can. Different set of dynamics altogether from a screw-on.

Thanks for the info. I finally learned something useful about suppressors. I have read what's on that section of this forum, and asked questions, but the answers are stingy, and often refer to some link or study, which is either not helpful or not accessable to me.

It seems to take a lot of research to gain real knowledge on these subjects, and I don't entirely trust the suppressor makers, who seem to spout sales pitch. These things cost too much money to experiment with. I already know that if I buy one, and I'm not happy with it, there will be no recourse. So far, I'm not willing to take that chance. Before I buy, there is more knowledge to gain. And it may not happen anyway, since I have a retirement cabin to build. It's a matter of priorities.

KB

I think if I was going to go to all the trouble and expense to get a suppressor I would go with a 308.

I would shoot 170gr 30/30 type bullets subsonic with Trail boss powder when I wanted to be really, realy quiet, and regular 308 ammo when I needed more range and a/or a little less quiet.

And you could always take the suppressor off and have a perfectly good 308.

I did the math on your 308 suggestion.

I picked the most streamlined 30-30 bullet, the Hornady 160gr flextip. BC of .330, 1100 fps = 430fp of energy at the muzzel, and a whopping 370fp at 100 yds.

That's simply not enough thump to be hunting deer or hogs with unless you put the muzzel in their ear before pulling the trigger.

In other words, it's a useless toy, and costs as much as buying something actually useful.

As stated initially, at subsonic velocity, for my use the adequacy starts with a .458 bullet in the 350 to 400 gr class. I am comfortable taking shots out to 100 yds with such a bullet and load, and you can keep the muzzel vel subsonic.

And, as you pointed out with the 308 example, a 45/70 can also be used with regular loads too.

KB

BTW, I would like to know more about these intergral suppressors, since now we know two things - that they can be taken apart and cleaned, and alignment is better since it fits back over the barrel. I'm thinking perhaps cutting the barrel back to 16" is not necessary for OAL purposes if the can isn't sticking out in front so much.

Edited: On second thought:
It seems to me there would be advantage of having a detachable suppressor, which can be used on various firearms of the same caliber. As I understand it, the intergral suppressor is mated to one specific firearm. Also, a detatchable suppressor can be sold seperately.

For subsonic loads, the 16" barrel is adequate anyway, and fast powder is probably the best choice. A longer barrel is simply not needed to get the correct velocity, and just decreases the handiness of the rifle.

So, I'm still of the opinion that a detachable can is the best way to go.

If a single shot is not acceptable, then the 458 SOCOM on the AR15 platform is the way to go, IMO. I suspect that a can made specifically for the 458 SOCOM would also be perfect for the Encore in 45/70.

Awesome firearm: http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti....aspx?Item=246316076

This is an example of the type of suppressor I would look for: http://www.awcsystech.com/prod...ressors/thundertrap/

Notice it's offered for the 45/70, and in titanium for an extra price.

KB

There's all you ever wanted to know and more at silencertalk.com. Like most forums (other than this one) it has sponsors and lots of PR going on but lots of frank discussions too.

The permutations are almost endless and the price choices are staggering. And not too surprising, technical opinions run about as strong as on this forum.

I thought I wanted an integral for my 458 SOCOM Rem 700 EtronX but the more I study it the more inclined I am toward high quality detachables. The exception for me would be a Ruger 22 LR auto pistol with integral suppressor. In stainless they run from 900-1100 bucks plus the transfer tax.

Since Remington bought Advanced Armorment I'm inclined to look at their stuff too, if for no other reason because they'll probably be around a while. I hear suppressors are the new man-jewelry among well heeled gun toting metrosexuals so we ought to see some interesting developments in the industry.

If you're going to buy a single caliber can for multiple rifles, be sure to size it for the largest case you plan for that bore. A 308 can is not going to last long on a 300 RUM amd 458 SOCOM can won't handle a 458 Lott for long if at all. Likewise, a can rated for full auto will last a whole lot longer than a light duty can. Trying to go light with composite or aluminum tubes bite you in the ass too if you don't thoroughly research a particular can's specifications and ratings.

The big bullets will make plenty of noise as they head down range. The smaller bullets like .223 and 308 are quieter as they're more aerodynamic. The bigger bullets like 45 cal make a whistle as they fly. I
I've been downrange of a suppressed 45ACP rifle and you can hear the FMJ's coming. It almost sounds like the Star Wars laser guns.

for hunting at 100, I'd want to know what the critters are going to hear. Flight time at 100 is enough to give the critter an instant to flinch.

Just something to think about and explore.

Roger that. The main reason for a can is shooter comfort for me. I figure I fart so much in the woods that muzzle report is nearly last on my list of my hunting challenges.

Whistle or not, if subsonic is the criteria, big bore is the only solution, with enough thump, IMO. Near the speed of sound seems to me would give little time for a flinch to matter, except perhaps on the follow up shot for other piggies nearby.

I have enough trouble justifying the expense of a suppressor anyway, and a small bore just seems like a waste of money to me, except for use with full power loads, and acceptance of the sonic crack.

If this gets too complicated for me to make decisions with assurance, I'll just skip the whole thing, and get a cross bow.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
I figure I fart so much in the woods that muzzle report is nearly last on my list of my hunting challenges.

Obviously you should google "fart suppressor" for further info. Or perhaps skip the beans for breakfast on the morning of the hunt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PpLgFOsXII

KB

If they make fart supressors my wife is going to be one happy camper