I did not want to hijack the last thread on this subject so I started a new one.

I’m working on some research to do with Ludwig Wundhammer who was one of the first to make custom stocks for the 1903 Springfield in 1910. All his stocking was from a blank and my question to those who have done this work is how many hours does it take the average workman to build a stock?

Michael,
As a shadetree guy, I'm going to post before the pro's so their estimates don't make me hide in the corner.

If everything goes according to plan 115ish hours;
40 h for inletting and rough shaping,
45 h for final shaping, sanding and finishing,
30 h for checkering.
I don't do complex checkering patterns with fleurs or the like. Somewhere during the job I usually make some gross error that costs me another 20ish hours, so my real time is closer to 140 hours.

As far as modern tools I use a band saw and drill press for hogging off excess wood, and very rarely a belt sander. On the good advice of others I use a variable speed (!) breast drill for drilling a buttstock draw-bolt hole on two piece stocks that need them. One of my real prizes from e-bay:


BTW, Thanks for the book!

My smith says his average 120 hours.

Michael,
My experience is similar to Forrest's gunsmith when I do it from a blank. I am probably in the 100 to 110 hour range. Inletting the blank is probably 32 hours for me and the shaping and sanding is then about 16 hours. The rest is finishing and checkering. Doing it from a good (hoenig machine) inlet saves me about 28 to 30 hours of inletting. Inletting from a 98% inlet may even cost me more than the blank. Probably an exageration but it always feels that way.

I don't even qualify as "shadetree" but I think the 80 hr. estimate is close sans checkering. I have been using the Custom Oil spray finish which cuts lots of hand rub time but that just tells you how slowly my inletting goes.

Yeti, great pics. There are some great pics of Dunlop using the breast drill for metal work also, I need to find one... Totally off topic but is it just me or do you guys just love the look of a well used bench? Some guys' shops look like surgical galleries, mine has that post earthquake look.


I look forward to the next book Mr. Petrov.

Jay,
Considering the actual meaning, "shadetree" overstates my case...I don't do stockwork for money and didn't mean to imply that. Home hobbiest just didn't sound as cool when I was typing.

Nice bench man!

Yeti, I have a drill just like that. Its a antique!

Thanks guys, Not wanting to put anyone on the spot, just trying to figure out how the heck Mr. Wundhammer did things. Of course he had no interruptions from the phone, email, pager or cell.

E.C. Crossman wrote after Wundhammer’s death about the number of sporting rifles he made and I felt that it was a much larger number than was possible. I now have Wundhammer’s price list for 1910 not only showing the price but the amount of time for making a stock.

Michael,
Even if he wasn't interrupted, he was very efficient.
If he was specializing in just '03's maybe he made some jigs and templates to cut down on the inletting and rough shaping time.

Pete Grisel does them complete with checkering in around 40-45 hours. He has no use for semi inlets. He also threads & chambers on 1 1/2 hours. After watching him work it's apparent that he knows exactly how far to go with the biggest/fastest tool he can find. Bill Soverns took Pete's stockmaking class and can probably elaborate more.

I can hack a stock out of a blank pretty quick, but my finishing & checkering is pretty slow. Now that I don't have a day job other than finishing my shop & unpacking from the move, I'll get a better handle the next few stocks on how long it really does takes me. Best guess without steel buttplate around 80 hours complete.

gunmaker

Jay,
mine is also inteh earthwquake catagory!

I am just curious, and this question is certainly not meant to criticize anyone or call anyone on the carpet. When a person who does quite a bit of stockwork quotes hours, I am wondering what those Hours entail.

For example, I have stood at a bench and done tedious inletting using scrapers and Jarrows. You cannot do that straight for even an hour without taking a little break or your neck would kill you. And when doing finishing work, there is a lot of waiting time involved.

So, the question is, how much of those 80 hours or those 120 hours, or whatever number of hours is ACTUAL work with a tool in hand. Do most stockmakers use a time clock and punch out for even little 5 minute bathroom breaks, or are stretching and bathroom and soda breaks included, as well as time between putting on coats of varnish inlcuded?

Pete Grisel can go from a blank to ready to sand in 16 hours.

P.S. A good sharp chisel makes the inletting go faster vs scrapers.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Soverns:
Pete Grisel can go from a blank to ready to sand in 16 hours.

P.S. A good sharp chisel makes the inletting go faster vs scrapers.

Bill,
16 hours? from a blank? I am amazed!!! I would love to see a video of that.. but I wouldn't want to be in the shop.. at that speed, i bet he's got 5 people pushing brooms!
jeffe

I watched him do it. He uses a milling machine, band saw, belt sander and then its down to chisels and big files.

yeti, ebay brace & bit: BRACE

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Soverns:
Pete Grisel can go from a blank to ready to sand in 16 hours.

P.S. A good sharp chisel makes the inletting go faster vs scrapers.

Bill

I am sure a good sharp chisel makes the inletting go faster, but I am also sure one needs nerves of steel and a tremendous amount of practice to get to that point.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

Bill

I am sure a good sharp chisel makes the inletting go faster, but I am also sure one needs nerves of steel and a tremendous amount of practice to get to that point.

Exactly, something one, two or even three inletting jobs won't give you. Like anything in life, repetition, patience, and persistence are key. As are sharp tools and confidence.

ZLR

And I would imagine confidence comes from having ruined a few blanks when starting out so as to know just how far one can go before ruining the blank. If you know how far you can go you can have confidence in using bigger chisels and files to get close to where you are going.

Anybody got any really cheap blanks they want to sell?

I watched my gunsmith mentor take a slab of walnut with bark on the sides that had been in an attic for several years waiting for me to give up a HiWall to a friend's son for his first custom cartridge rifle go from chunk of wood to 90% inletted and ready to final sand in about 20 hours last week. We are starting Casey off right, 50-110 Winchester. My 550 magnum will go the same route and timeframe he tells me, even allowing for my hamfisted attempts to butcher it.

Rich

Truth be told.....I have made more mistakes with a scraper than I ever have with a chisel.

In response to the above question;

"So, the question is, how much of those...hours...is ACTUAL work with a tool in hand...stretching and bathroom and soda breaks included, as well as time between putting on coats of varnish inlcuded?"

I can't speak for anyone but myself but in tracking "time" on a project I count the time in the shop on THAT project. If I take a 5-15 min. smoke or toilet break and go right back to the same job, its included. If I go to lunch for an hour, time stops when I leave & restarts when I return. Pretty much the same as "a paying job!" If I put one job down and work on another for a while, "time" is credited accordingly. Any time out of the shop, time between coats, etc... does not count.

Thanks for all the input, I guess with experience and skill speed followed.

Bob Owen's son told me about a time when he was a kid a customer of Bob’s dropped by while Bob was working on his expensive piece of wood with a hand ax, told me the guy about had a heart attack.

Wundhammer did other work as well as custom stocking although that was the bulk of his business. There was one other person working in the shop with him. Here is a picture of a Wundhammer stock rifle.

How on earth can a person make a living taking 120 hours to make one stock?! That work goes for what $1,500-$2,000?

Gunsmithing is not a career path to personal wealth. It's done as a love affair not a well planned marriage..............DJ

quote:

Originally posted by GeoffM24:
How on earth can a person make a living taking 120 hours to make one stock?! That work goes for what $1,500-$2,000?

I think the top talent guys that do make a living at this are closer to the $5k range. Names like Heilmann and Hensley come to mind..

I watched Klaus Hiptmayer make a few stocks. If he started on Monday morning, I swear that rifle would be sitting on the rack, finished, on Friday night. Inletting and rough shaping would be done the first day, final shaping and sanding the second, fitting of accoutrements and finish application the third, checkering the fourth, and final assembly the fifth. The only power tool I ever saw him use was a drill.
I was really amazed by the checkering. He could checker whilst talking over his shoulder and never seemed to make a mistake. Regards, Bill

Let me hijack this thread for a short bit. Then I'll get out of the way.

I have a .72 cal 1 1/8" Oct barrel and a hunk of pretty hard Oregon maple sitting here and haven't been able to find anyone that will get the rough shape done on the blank.
Eddie Shulin refuses to work on it without a pattern. That's the problem.

I tried starting another one and had to give it up just before the blank was too deep to save. So I'm not going to start the wood butchering on this one.

I'd like to find someone, maybe one of you fellows IF we can put it together.

All I want is either a pattern, or rough shape and rough barrel grooving, nothing else. As once it's got the basic shape, I'm pretty fair at finishing the rest of the inletting and getting it done.

What I want is: butt: 2"wide, 7 1/2" high, in a good old classic shape fairly straight w/cheek rest, not a drop type m/l stock. The stock I'm hoping to end up with will be just a lot larger than normal, yet retain the same classic shape. Yet, have a M/L barrel, L&R lock, etc.

I have pictures of other guns/stocks I like well with the design I'm hoping for. And of the blank w/barrel etc. Nothing fancy as I intend it to be a shooter to play with.

IF anyone's willing, please contact me at: georgeld@hotmail.com directly. This will save the thread, and any embarrassment, or hassle's for anyone.

I'd be just as willing to have a pattern made as the stock worked on. As once I have a workable pattern Eddie will rough turn it for me.

When replying, please put a note about this in the header so it's not junked.

Thank you,

George