I have absolutely had enough of rifle owners and collectors who insist on calling every Mauser they see, a K98. I hear it all the time, but in the last 3 days, I have had 3 guys tell me, and even show me pictures, and examples, of their "K98s".
THEY NEVER ARE.
This is not new; I got my first Mauser many decades ago, and I hear it many times a year, but it has gotten worse.
Guys call VZ24s, FNs of all ilk, Kar98ks, 09 Argetines, and everything in between, K98. I just can't fathom where this nonsense came from.
I've had enough. I always slap them down and tell them what they have. It doesn't stick; they forget. One guy this week told me had had a rare Kar 92, showing me a picture of an obvious Kar98. He insisted the 8 was a 2 and it was a rare test prototype. I could not convince him otherwise.
A 98 made in 92? Please.
Anyway, here is an actual K98. They are Polish. Only. I got this one directly from Bill Rogers in 1975; rare because of the long hand guard retainer.
Unfortunately the ones who need the lesson will never read this.

I've only seen one in person and I own it. RWE sporting rifle. Erfurt?

Now if i only bought that Browning pencil barrel small ring (not sako) I saw years ago.

I have an extremely rare Kar 98 made by Remington in 1755!

Hip

You guys are not helping.

Come on Tom, I read almost all of your posts and in some you state some people have no sense of humor!

So, how about it?

Hip

I definitely do1

I'm interested, esp. since my wife's family are Polish. Is Danzig considered Polish, too? Not that it should matter since I mentioned buying a Mauser 458WM yesterday and was quietly ignored.

Your pics have shown me a few things. The bayonet mount(?) seems to stick out - or is that something to do with stacking rifles. Also, I had previously thought K98s had pressed trigger guards, not that I have ever spoken the term or claimed to have one.

nuh, uh.. my k98 is a semi-auto 7,62x54r

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
You guys are not helping.

Dear Mr DPCD aka Mr. Tom,

As a verified redneck, hillbilly, and mountaineer, I would never be so brash to assert I could be of any help. My very nature is to stir the pot, withdraw to the sidelines, and watch the ensuing melee among idiots.

Nevertheless, I fear those of us who can differentiate the great differences among the millions of military Mausers or wax eloquent about the subtle differences among the 1st, 2d, or 3d Model Winchester M1873s are a rare, dying, and increasingly irrelevant breed.

Unfortunately, we are no longer erstwhile juvenile delinquents who lusted over the plethora a surplus Mausers offered on the back pages of the American Rifleman which were even too expensive at $19.95 each.

No one can be bothered any more. Superior design, quality craftsmanship, and rarity are no longer relevant, Who knows these days what a M1903 Hoffer Thompson Springfield was? I do. I owned one and even shot it, but so what. Times have changed. What was once admired is now forgotten. So, I dare to suggest that you lower your expectations and count it joy when any of today Cretans can identify a rifle as a Mauser regardless of its proper identification.

All of this is very hard to admit for someone who has devoted the last 60 years to the study of traditional firearms. I'm sure you understand. So, please don't take it personally when the next self-proclaimed expert insists all Mauser M98s are the same. Ignorance is widespread and cannot be countered by fact or logic. Just know you are right and let the ignorant revel in their bliss.

Roger

In my collection I keep all the K98's racked right next to the P17's.

quote:

Originally posted by kendog:
In my collection I keep all the K98's racked right next to the P17's.

what about the m14 bolt actions?

Uhm, sir, can i relief cut a k92 barrel to remove it?

hmm, can i also GO OFF about people that THINK thier "improved" rounds can suddenly go 300 fps faster without a change in pressure?

RA; wise, astute, and competent editorial, as always. RA and I have had a professional relationship since 1969 and now, as then, he is the consummate professional, serious, dedicated, detailed, knowledgeable in weapons and tactics above everyone else, and totally reliable to accomplish the mission, no matter what. His name, RA, stands for Regular Army. As we all thought then. (He is being reserved here, do not fall for the subterfuge) And we are both from WV.
Sam; glad you asked; the K98 is only the Polish small ring, as in my picture and cannot deviate from that. All milled parts for sure, and the appendage to which you refer is a stacking swivel; also used on the (German) Kar98, although different in design. Both the K98 and Kar98 are small ring, 98 pattern, short rifles.
No, a Danzig is not Polish, nor did they make any K98s. It was run by, and for, the Germans.
The stamped trigger guard did not enter until late in WW2 on the Kar98k, which is a totally different rifle; (there is also a post war one piece stamped large winter TG made by BRNO), and would never be on a pre 1944 rifle.

Thanks Tom (if I may call you that), much appreciated. I certainly did not know K98s were small-ring.

Of course you can; we are no longer in the
Battalion.
Yes, all K98s are small ring, and again, that nomenclature is only for the Polish K98 short rifle. The German equivalent of very similar design, including the stacking rod, is called, and marked, KAR 98.
Even more confusing is the Kar98K of 1935 (33 and 34 were Standard Modells) and on; Karabiner 98Kurz; in fact, it has the same 24 inch barrel as the K and Kar. And most all are marked, Mod 98. There are other markings....
Even more confusing is that there was a Kar98b; this is a 29 inch barreled Gewehr. (Germany could make Carbines under the Versailles treaty, but not Gewehr, is the reason) We all know that Carbines are less deadly than rifles!
No wonder no one knows what to call early to mid 20th century European rifles.

Only matters if one cares.

Other wise they are just all out of date old bolt action rifles.

Yeah, the 98 Mauser is not suitable for anyone here.
And there is no reason for fellow rifle guys too even try to use the correct designations for anything.
Just call them anything you want. They are all assault weapons after all. I bet they will shoot over a mile!
Ban them.

I find if I am discussing with someone who calls a Mauser a K98 ignorantly, typically they have an @aol.com email address and do not text. Ie, they are over the age of 60, but possibly 50.

Most "kids", can tell me the maker, if the acceptance marks are correct, and if there are any subcontracted parts. Because they spent 15 - 20 minutes googling it.

I swear this is true; I went to shop today; the owner said; Hey, I just got a K98 action and I'm going to build something on it. I rolled my eyes and said, "I doubt it."
So he hands it to me.
True to form, it was a KAR98, German. (small ring of course).
I explained to him the difference. He was suitably impressed. He said, I thought that all these were called K98s.....
What we are seeing is an epidemic of Ignorance and Apathy.
What can we do about it?
I don't know, and I don't care.

To be functionally fluent in German, you need about 800 words, about double that for american english, and 4x for british english - we've worn down specificity for speed.. petpeeve of mine

I think most of those rifles in that German Hunting Guns book were built on K98's weren't they?

Hah hah hah. A 98 Mauser made in 1892. That's a new one. Eh, the uneducated. Some take advantage of them, some try to educate, the sound of silence works best.
dpcd - Some make me laugh. Albeit non-gun related. I built me a nice river boat complete with stick steering and a yamaha outboard jet. Did a few donuts in shallow water on the way to the ramp and some young guy said. Watch it now. Your gonna knock the bottom end of that motor! He tilted his head like a confused puppy when he saw it didn't have a prop or gear case.
Hope you see the humor there Tom. The ones that gripe my grunions are the liars that claim their gun or whatever is something special and it's not and know better. Be well my friend.

I wonder why the Germans used the model name KAR98. All I know is that kar or kah is the way they pronounce the letter K, which probably gives us the American name for Paul Koehler's scopes after WWII: Pecar.

What is the name of the rifle that the Germans used during WWII?

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
I wonder why the Germans used the model name KAR98. All I know is that kar or kah is the way they pronounce the letter K, which probably gives us the American name for Paul Koehler's scopes after WWII: Pecar.

KAR is shortened Karabiner 98k - Which translates to carbine, a carbine of the gewehr 98 which was the original name

well mine has a number 700

Ok, the abbreviation KAR, is for Karabiner, as J points out.
However, the KAR98 (so marked) is ONLY a small ring German factory made, 24 inch barrel, piece. Kar98 can't be a shortened Kar98k because the KAR98 predates the Kar98K by many years. And the Kar98 is a small ring; the Kar98K is large ring.
The Gewehr 98 was the 29 inch barrel, WW1 98. Yes the kar98K looks like a 24 inch barrel version of the Gewehr, but they were not produced at the same time. If you look at pictures and videos of the SS troops, they used Gew98s into WW2; the Army was taking all the Kar98Ks.
The Kar98K is derived from the rearmament program of 1933, when Mauser started producing the STANDARD MODELL (so marked) to compete with the FNs and CZs being produced and exported. These have the Banner on the ring.
In 1934, the "alternate Standard Model" was introduced by Mauser Oberndorf; it is marked, 1934. These are the same configuration as the Kar98K. Turned down bolt handle. Many of these were made for the Post Office (ReichsPost), and Railroad (ReichsBahn), as a ploy to hide production for the Army.
And in 1934, the code system came into being, and the first
code was S42K. Later S42G in 1935. Then S42, 42, Later byf. Then in 1945, SVW, then SVWMB. Then, after the war was over, (they were making rifles for the French), we made them quit.
The rifle used by the Germans in WW2 was the Kar98k. That rifle is not derived in any way from the KAR98. Nothing similar.
And are marked Mod 98. It is a completely different rifle than the KAR98. I understand why people get confused and just give up and call every Mauser they see a K98. (again, that is strictly a Polish one)
I can post pictures if anyone wants; I have every variation of Kar98K made.

One picture will clarify everything:
Top to bottom:
Gewehr 98
K98 (all are Polish)
KAR 98
Standard Modell 1934 Banner
Kar98K converted from a Gewehr 98. The SS did this.
Kar98K BNZ44
Kar98K byf 45 Note deletion of bayonet lug and cleaning rod.
Kar98K SVWMB. French occupation made. Has stars for proof; no more WaffenAmpts. Note stacking rod only.

Tom,
This issue is obviously very near and dear to your heart and it seems like a pet peeve. Nevertheless, I cannot resist pulling your chain by saying you have forgotten an important Mauser M98 with a "K" designation and that is the lovely little Kurz actioned rifles and carbines. Yes, they are properly an M98 Kurz, but you never know when some idiot will call one a 98K or K98. Seriously, thank you for untangling the secrets of Mauser military rifles.

Cheers.

Nice collection.

1. The true Kurz Action was not military and I do not know what the official Mauser designation for it was. Not a pet peeve; I just deal in facts.
2. Thanks; Just a small sample of a collection.

Nice collection of k98’s.

Serious question this time Tom.
What do you call a "mauser" action by a factory not lisenced by mauser for manufacturing?

Good one metal!
You call them whatever the maker calls them. They are still Mauser Patent. Mauser design. For military rifles, each country had it's unique model for them.
Like this one:

I've enjoyed this tutorial, though I'm not a collector.

I converted a couple of the FN 1950s Famage .30-06 rifles to sporters 40-50 years ago, despite their marring of the receiver ring. I liked them because the stocks were clear of all the junk and recesses on the German rifles. There's so much wood that I could sculpt the pistol hand into something redolent of a modern Rigby stalking rifle and got one with great walnut that would shoot 1.3" groups without rebedding - but had to sell it in a lean time.

I wish I'd found one in 7×57 but Fullers didn't import them. The bee's knees here in the 1950s and '60s was that commercial FN dpcd showed, which apparently came in 21 calibres. I'd love to have got one but they were out of my reach.

Sorry about that one Tom, couldn’t help myself.
Talking about 98’s, they are so perfect in every way I can’t think of one thing I don’t like about them.

quote:

Talking about 98’s, they are so perfect in every way I can’t think of one thing I don’t like about them.

+1!

Right; from a design standpoint, I would have liked to see the extractor made to snap over a chambered round. German tactical doctrine and soldier training was to load only from the 5 round clip; never to load one into the chamber. Unlike British and American doctrine, which was to allow single loading and save the magazine for rapid fire; in fact the 03 Springfield and early Enfields have the magazine cutoff to allow that to happen. Only some 93 Mausers for Turkey had that cutoff.
And of course the 91, my favorite Mauser action, allows it.

I took a cussing in gunsmithing for referring to an FN as an FN Mauser. An FN is an FN and a Mauser is a Mauser..I won't reference his name as he has passed but his fame was awesome, RIP Jack

Elmer and dpcd might have had differences with him, too, Ray, if he was the Jack I imagine.