Last week I took three rifles to my smith to replace recoil pads. As I was in no particular hurry for them I left them there for the week. I sent my partner to pick them up on Friday and was told that the BATF had begun enforcing either a new rule or interpreting an existing rule. NOW if you take your weapon to any gunsmith and the weapon stays in the shop after closing hours, you have to YELLOW SHEET to get them back. What is going on now! I thought all this crap would end with the elemination of Clintonian politics. Is there any reason to have to yellow sheet your own property? Gezzzzzzzzz.

I just picked up a rifle from my gunsmith (on Friday) that has been left more than a week. I did not have to fill out any form. I have read that some local places are requiring that (mainly back east). Is it a local requirement?

Could you explain for those of us who don't know (myself included), exactly what a "yellow sheet" is. Is it some sort of bullshit transfer document or what? Thanks.

lb, so I would assume that if you sent in your gun for "factory" repairs, would you then be required to 4473 them also?
I had heard of this law on the books but had never seen it enforced. It was my understanding that the smith had to book the weapon in and then book it out when picked up, not 4473.

as i understand the rules

the gunsmith must put it in his book if he holds a firearm overnight.. there's no form required to get YOUR gun back, as there's no transfer...

but, pawn shops are required to fill one out when giving a rifle back, as ownership OF INTEREST in the gun wsa transfered, as all pawns are technicly sales, as there's no way to determine if a person will ever recover it

jeffe

The understanding of the story goes as such. The BATF visited Gene Sears Supply, El Reno, Oklahoma on Wednesday of last week for a routine inspection. Gene Sears Supply is a wholesale establishment and Geneo is a famous Skeet shooter and has a family run business of highest quality and standards. The BATF found rifles/shot guns in for repair, mostly for recoil pads as they out source their repair. Anyway, the company was told that any firearm left overnight had to be logged in and the could only be picked up by the person that left the weapon and only after filling out a yellow form. This is not right. Why should one have to go through that crap for your own weapon? TOO MUCH GOVERNMENT!!!!! Does anyone have contacts within BATF they could get the skinny on the goings on???

I have an FFL and to my knowledge there is no requirement to fill out or file a form 4473 for any work done on your weapon. The BATF is normally really good about notifying FFL holders of any new laws or new interpretations of existing laws, and I have not received any such notice. Form 4473 is for the legal transfer (read that as sale) of a firearm. It can also be required for weapons placed in pawn or held on consignment for sale when and if they are returned to the person who placed them in pawn or consignment.

Now...you and/or your smith may run afoul of BATF requirements and/or local requirements since you, the owner of the weapon, were not the person who went to pick it up.

I, as an FFL holder, would not have given the rifle to your friend either and would have politely told him to go back and tell you that you must pick the weapon up in person.

Question 12a on form 4473 states: “ Are you the actual buyer of the firearm listed on this form? WARNING: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm to you.†This could be interpreted to mean that a gunsmith may only return a firearm to the person who brought it in and who is listed in his bound book as the person whom he received the weapon from.

When dealing with the BATF it is always wise and prudent to err on the side of caution.

Rick 0311, As a past dealer withh a repair business, I know the regs. As far as letting others have a weapon, If I knew you and your wife/family/best friend, and you called me and said you were send one of them to pick up your gun, I would give it to them. Repairs have never been required to be returned to the specific person that brought it in. In my business I often sent stuff out for blueing and either I or my partner or who ever would pick it up. No foul. No breech of conduct. Just my business practice as there is no transfer of ownership involved at all. This is NOT a sale. It is a repair of properly owned goods. Caution is good, however after 40 years of sound business practices, I thought I knew the laws pretty well. This is a new twist and I think wrong thinking intreptation of the rules.

Well, they got part of it right.....the gun has to be returned to the person who brought it in.......but no yellow sheet is required......

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b1

I. GUNSMITHS

(I1) Is a license needed to engage in the business of engraving, customizing, refinishing or repairing firearms? [Back]

Yes. A person conducting such activities as a business is considered to be a gunsmith within the definition of a dealer. [27 CFR 178.11]

(I2) Does a gunsmith need to enter in a permanent "bound book" record every firearm received for adjustment or repair? [Back]

If a firearm is brought in for repairs and the owner waits while it is being repaired or if the gunsmith is able to return the firearm to the owner during the same business day, it is not necessary to list the firearm in the "bound book" as an "acquisition." If the gunsmith has possession of the firearm from one business day to another or longer, the firearm must be recorded as an "acquisition" and a "disposition" in the permanent "bound book" record. [27 CFR 178.125( e)]

(I3) Is ATF Form 4473 required when a gunsmith returns a repaired firearm? [Back]

No, provided the firearm is returned to the person from whom received. [27 CFR 178.124( a)]

Square shooter,

I know what you are talking about when it comes to “knowing the customer personally†and that is somewhat covered in the BATF guidelines they give you.

Personally, I believe that this particular smith was misinterpreting the laws rather than the BATF coming up with something new. My last FFL Newsletter mentions a new 4473 form that will be coming out sometime in August 2005, but mentions nothing about requiring 4473’s for customers picking up their gun after having it worked on by a smith.

Even if there was some local or state law in this regard they would have their own form to use rather than a 4473 federal form.

The BATF can get pretty wacky at times but I would bet that this particular instance is nothing more than someone misunderstanding what is required.

Rick, I think I agree with you but the ATF boys were very specific about this issue. I do not know what is up. All I do know is that when I go to get them they are required to obtain the 4473. No other option. They offered to drive my stuff over to me, do the sheets, and call it in from the house, but I couldn't gurantee them a time I would be free.
As a side note, I don't mind doing the silly sheet for a new gun purchase. I don't like the hassel of paperwork on my own property that was properly transacted. It makes it look like you are buying more guns than you really are. Also, my gunsmith is 40 miles away and it is more convenient to send my wife to do some of these errands. Now she cant and with my surgery schedule, it is a real inconvenience. The real issue is this; IS the BATF starting a new campaigne on our guns and if they are where is the impitus for this B.S.????/

Asking the BATF to explain a rule is the same as asking the IRS! You never get the same answer!

When I was working at a local (California) shop several years ago an old customer sent a pile of shotguns in for winter cleaning as usual. He was busy farming and sent a foreman in with the guns, as usual. The foreman went home to Mexico for the Navidad , as usual. When the farmer's wife returned to pick up the guns we had problems.
Remember this the next time you hear someone say, "We need to enforce the laws we have , not invent new ones." The ones we have are not the answer either.
Cheers from Darkest California,
Ross

Problem here is that you did not go to pick up your rifle--you sent your partner. If you leave a rifle for repair and you go back to pick it up no 4473 is required. If you send someone else to pick it up, a 4473 is required and the rifle ends up in that person's name!!!

You actually talked to the ATF and they told you that?

According to my most recent copy of the Federal Firearms Regulations Guide page 103: ATF Rule 77-1... Under General Records 27 CFR 178.121 it states:

“ A licensed gunsmith is not required to prepare a form 4473 (Firearms Transaction Record) where a firearm is delivered to him for the sole purpose of customizing, adjustment, or repair and the firearm is returned to the person from whom received.â€

The only “records†your smith must maintain for pure gunsmithing work, as opposed to selling firearms, are those required under 27 CFR 178.125...which is his bound book entries of firearms acquisition and disposition. Even then, he only has to enter gunsmith work in that book if the weapon is left overnight.

You can visit the ATF web site at http://www.atf.gov and do a search on this topic or send them an email with your question.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Borden:
Problem here is that you did not go to pick up your rifle--you sent your partner. If you leave a rifle for repair and you go back to pick it up no 4473 is required. If you send someone else to pick it up, a 4473 is required and the rifle ends up in that person's name!!!

As I said in my prior post they insist that the rule change/intpretation required me to pick up the rifle AND fill out the 4473. They were even willing to bring them out to the local skeet range and do the paper work there.
Rick, thanks for the link. I am not trying to be arguemenative just attempting to portray the situation as accurately as I can. The truth will be known tomorrow or Tuesday when I try to get my stuff from the Wholesaler.

I can see it now: when I go in to pick up my rifle after a repair, I will have to complete a new Form 4473 and pay another transfer fee. It's $50 in Nevada and this smells to me like just another way to raise money for the state coffers.

Square shooter,

Perhaps you are being very clear and it is I who is not understanding your problem!

I am still unclear if your gunsmith told you this...or the ATF told you this? You have described it both ways in different posts.

According to the most recent info from the ATF no form 4473 is required for return of a weapon that has been worked on by a gunsmith. It’s a straight forward, flat out, no way is it required.

Two of us have given you the ATF rule numbers and the federal codes that state this very plainly. If your gunsmith is telling you different he is mistaken.

I would also point out that it is illegal under the terms of his FFL for him to transfer that weapon back to you at any place other than his place of business as stated on his license. If he offered to deliver it to you he doesn’t know the rules quite as well as he would like you to think he does. I hope for your sake his work is better than his understanding of gun laws.

Rick, I have only talked to the dealer, not ATF. I am relaying the story as told to me on Friday. I have done business with the company for 30+ years and this is a new twist for them as well as Me. ATF was at their place of business for two days last week and came up with this new business. They were shocked as they had never had to do anything like that before and the new interpretation was so different from the way they have done business in the past that they didn't know what to think. Gene Sears has always taken high grade guns to the various skeet/trap meets. They are for sale. How is that different than George Caswell and the folks at Champlin Arms selling at the Wanamarhers Gun show in Tulsa twice a year. They do Yellow sheets all day long? This is not a challenge to you, I just want to know the way things have been done in the past.

lb404, if that is what the ATF agent told him then he was wrong. It would certainly not be the first time.

If a person leaves a gun at a shop to sell it on consignment and you decide you are going to take it home you do have to fill out the form. But not on getting your repaired gun back.

Square Shooter,

I’m not a lawyer or an “expert†on ATF rules and regs...I do have an FFL 0-1 dealer license and I am only going by what I was told by the agents that interviewed me and issued my license...and also on what I am reading in the Firearms regs supplied to me along with my license, and the FFL newsletters sent out to FFL holders by the ATF.

I was told nothing by the agents, and have been unable to find anything in the regs that would tend to back up what your guy is telling you. Perhaps they have a new regulation and I just haven’t received the info in the mail from them yet...I don’t know.

Dealers are allowed to buy and sell guns at gun shows in the same state as their licence was issued. Gunsmiths are only supposed to receive and return guns at the location listed on their license. That is what I was told by the ATF agents that interviewed me and issued my licence. Anyone, FFL or not, can work on their own guns all they want to... or those of others (anywhere at all) as long as they do not keep the gun overnight.

Without you and I wearing our fingers (or our keyboards) out on this topic the best advice I can give you is to call your regional ATF office and get an answer from them on what your smith is telling you. I don’t claim to have all the answers, but I can find nothing about 4473’s being required for repairs of a persons firearm by a gunsmith...and have found lots of things saying that they are not.

Might I pose this, the ATF agents and/or the gunsmith are wrong in their interpretation. So far in my less than most of you dealings with guns, their sale, purchase and shipping I have had to:

1. Explain to UPS their rules
2. Explain to USPS their rules and make them look it up
3. Explain to an FFL the rules and make him list a purchased action properly

Pepole get crazy things all the time. I am not an FFL, but my understanding of the above rule posted here is that you don't have to do paperwork, but if somebody else tries to get it they might. If you have a relationship with the smith they probably would release to a friend without a hassle, but they should and could make them fill out the form. (according to how I read that).

Red

O know this won't help you in time for this particular transaction, but it may prove valuable for future ones...

Rather than only call your local BATF office, I suggest you also write a letter of inquiry to the BATF in Washington, D.C. Ask them specifically if you have to fill out a 4473 to get your own firearm back from a gunsmith who has kept it overnight for modification or repair.

Keep the written answer they send you. If it varies with what the local BATF office tells you, or what your local ofice has told your local dealer, then provide copies to both of them.

The national letter of interpretation trumps the local office ruling every time. If needed you can then call the national office and ask them to intervene with the local ofice, based on their own letter of interpretation. Smells like a green, new, agent to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Dago Red:
Might I pose this, the ATF agents and/or the gunsmith are wrong in their interpretation. So far in my less than most of you dealings with guns, their sale, purchase and shipping I have had to:

1. Explain to UPS their rules
2. Explain to USPS their rules and make them look it up
3. Explain to an FFL the rules and make him list a purchased action properly

Pepole get crazy things all the time. I am not an FFL, but my understanding of the above rule posted here is that you don't have to do paperwork, but if somebody else tries to get it they might. If you have a relationship with the smith they probably would release to a friend without a hassle, but they should and could make them fill out the form. (according to how I read that).

Red

Red,

At the risk of beating this dammed dead horse just once more...ATF form 4473 (the infamous yellow sheet) is for the “TRANSFER†of “OWNERSHIP†of a firearm. It is NOT designed or intended to be used as a form for gunsmiths to have their customers fill out when they pick up their firearm that has been worked on. After all...the customer already owns the damned thing and has probably already filled out a 4473 when they bought it.

When a customer brings a weapon to a gunsmith he is not transferring “ownership†to the gunsmith.

If someone other than the person who brought in the weapon comes to pick it up it would serve no purpose to fill out a form transferrering ownership to that person, who would then have to somehow transfer the ownership back to the person for whom he picked it up.

Call me a jerk...but if anyone brings me a gun to work on and then sends a friend to pick it up I’m afraid their friend is leaving my shop empty handed...period, end of story! Getting that FFL and then having to comply with all the local and state rules and regs was too much work to lose just because someone was too busy to run their own errands.

God Bless Brownells!!!!!

I finally found a good answer to this question and I was partially wrong in my statements...and Red’s last post was the most correct answer to the question.

On the front cover of Brownells new Gunsmith’s Repair Log (approved for use by the BATF) it does say that if any person, other than the person who brought the weapon in for repair, comes to pick it up the gunsmith must have that person fill out a 4473 just as if they sold the weapon to that person. You then have to record that “sale†in your permanent bound book and cross reference to it in the repair log book entry in the section for “person delivered to.â€

That does raise the interesting question of one firearm being legally transferred (sold) to two different people. Boy, could some lawyer have a hey day with that one if it ever went to court!

I have a friend with a type 07 manufacturers license.......he also loads and sells ammunition for some of his specialty firearms......the BATF did the annual inspection on him and said he was in violation because he didn't have a specific license to manufacture ammunition......he produced a printed copy of the BATF faq below and they didn't know what to do.......

(H3) May a person licensed as a manufacturer of firearms also manufacture ammunition? [Back]

Yes. The person may also manufacture ammunition (not including destructive device ammunition or armor piercing ammunition) without obtaining a separate license as a manufacturer of ammunition.


Funny.....not long after that the BATF decided to do a complete compliance audit.....no, no connection there.....purely coincidental.....no punitive intent whatsoever!!! Ya, right!!

Gon Huntin,

Personally, I’ve had pretty decent relations with the BATF people I‘ve dealt with so far...but some of the horror stories (urban legends aside) are enough to get a guy just a bit nervous at times.

Dealing in firearms, or working on them, in any form involves the Feds, the States, the Counties, and even the city that you live in and all of them have different rules and regs that sometimes are quite confusing and even conflicting. Add to that mix the IRS when it comes to Federal Excise Tax issues...some of those rules, specifically what constitutes a “manufacturerâ€, will amaze you!

I have, in my hot little hands, a pamphlet from the BATF office in Cincinnati entitled: “Gunsmith Information“ concerning your liability for Federal Firearms and Ammunition Excise Tax.

This pamphlet lists some of the procedures that can make you a “manufacturer†and liable for Federal Excise Tax record keeping and payment.

Three of my favorites:

1. Cutting off part of the barrel of a firearm, is, of itself, an act of manufature.

2. Engraving that “substantially†increases the value of the firearm is an act of manufacture.

3. Sporterizing a military rifle is considered to be manufacturing.

They also state that checkering and refinishing do not “generally†constitute manufacturing...whatever “generally†means?

Rick, the excise tax has to be paid by the owner of the firearm, if and when he sells it. If you build a rifle for someone on an action that you own, by law you are required to include excixe tax on the whole firearm complete as part of the sale. If you build it on his action then it is his responsiblity when it is sold in the future which rarely if ever happens. Might be a boy scout or two out there but none I have ever seen or heard of that coughed up the money.

Chic,

Very true...but the point was the “open-ended†way these laws are written that allow such a wide and subjective interpretation by whomever happens to be in a position of authority at the time. I am well aware that politicians are quite fond of this type of legislation since it offers them enough “wiggle-room†to appear to be on either side of an issue at their whim.

We all probably violate many laws everyday and hopefully most of us will never be in a position to have to answer a bunch of questions from the BATF or the IRS that we have no acceptable answers for!

Oh, by the way...the harwood dowels worked great on the Krag stock, thanks for the suggestion!

Rick, I totally agree with you on sending work home with a different party. I have never had it happen but I would also decline. I can imagine a call from the owner telling me that his friend didn't get it.

quote:

Originally posted by Customstox:
Rick, I totally agree with you on sending work home with a different party. I have never had it happen but I would also decline. I can imagine a call from the owner telling me that his friend didn't get it.

Chic,

The problem I would have with it is because I live in California and while I am allowed by the state and city to work on guns at my home and am not allowed to “sell†guns from my home. To sell guns in California, you have to have an actual store front business.

If I had to “sell†the worked on gun to someones errand boy and have them fill out a 4473 form I would be worried that some jerk in the California DOJ would decide that I was selling guns out of my home and I really don’t need the grief. And like you said...I would also worry that the cutomer would claim he never got the gun back and then I would have more grief!

Also, would there be a waiting period involved too?

quote:

Originally posted by Mark:
Also, would there be a waiting period involved too?

Mark,

You raise one of my other questions on these ridiculous “rules.â€

Here’s one for you...and I have yet to get a solid answer from either the California DOJ or the BATF on it.

Like I stated, I have a 0-1 dealer FFL. But because I live in California I am allowed to operate as a gunsmith from my home but cannot “sell†guns from my home, except by mail to other dealers. Now...what do I have to do in order to purchase a firearm with my FFL and legally “sell†it to myself? Do I have to go through a licensed California dealer with a store front? Do I have to deliver the firearm to this dealer (as another dealer) and then have him hold it for me for the ten day waiting period?

Also...as a dealer I can order as many firearms as I want and have them in my possession, but if I buy one of those firearms from myself (assuming I don’t get busted for selling a gun from my home) do I have to comply with the waiting period? And would I have to promise to not take them out of my safe until after the time period has expired????

To avoid any needless regulatory complications, firearms owners and their gunsmiths must follow this simple, although perhaps sometimes inconvenient, rule: If one person delivers his firearm to a dealer for overnight service, then that person alone should pick it up.

This is because, if another person picks it up, a new 4473 will have to be completed for that person, who will then become the transferee [which is to say, owner] of the firearm for federal purposes.

Plus, all state and local laws relating to firearms transfers will have to be observed and complied with under such circumstances, which would make the third-party transferee the owner of the firearm for those purposes as well.

Moreover, the liability conscious gunsmith will require convincing written evidence (such as a power of attorney) from the original customer that the person picking up his firearm is duly authorized to do so and accept ownership of it as described above.

Now, having gone through all of these requirements, it must be remembered that no 4473 is needed, and none of the rest of this nonsense is required, if the same person who originally delivers a firearm to a gunsmith for overnight service later picks it up.

Anyone who tells you anything to the contrary is misinformed.

Not convenient, perhaps, but a practical necessity thanks to our elected "friends" in Washington and the BATFE.