I heard it at the gunshop. A fellow there said Remington was declaring bankrupcy. I did not know him so he may have been full of it. Come to think about it, his eyes were brown.

I gave up on gun shop gossip a long time ago, the only thing worse than a bunch of gossiping old ladies, is the guys BS in a gun shop.

Colt has been going bankrupt for years, announced every other month in gunshops since 1965.

Rumers are like assholes, everybody has one. The bankruptsy rumers were flying fast and furious during Hillbilly Clinton's regime. And as you can see, they all went belly up didn't they?

Don't get all stressed out about it. You'll get heart failure.

quote:

Originally posted by schromf:
I gave up on gun shop gossip a long time ago, the only thing worse than a bunch of gossiping old ladies, is the guys BS in a gun shop.

Colt has been going bankrupt for years, announced every other month in gunshops since 1965.

Yeah, their shrinking product line proves it.

the big fat guy behind the gun counter at my local gun store (who has shot 4 mule deer over forty inches, but has no heads or pictures cause they burned up in a housefire) said he owns 51% of the stock in remington and they are not going bankrupt!

Those must be the same guys who told me that a Weatherby SAS 12 gauge wasn't a good hunting gun. They damn near ripped the gun out of my hands when I couldn't stop laughing at them!

Must be the same shop that argued with me when I asked if they had any 17 Remingtons and they told me I was confused and must mean 17HMR.

yep... that fella is full of prunes
remington just expanded project line..

best selling stuff in america

aint been through 5 owners in 40 years...

must be going under

They just invested a bunch of money in their SHOT Show booth for next year, not something you do if you are short of money!

loboga, I don't disagree that the investment doesn't make sense. However, it's been my experience that many times one hand does know what the other is doing. And until business units are told explicitly to terminate operations, they might keep up with business as usual.

quote:

Rumers are like assholes, everybody has one

, I agree.

I work for a distributor, we are Remington's largest distributor. Funny the Rep is in here several times a week and a personal friend of mine. If Remington is going under he does not know about it! Actually, the number of firearms they produced last year is up from the previous year! "51 % of Rem stock owned by a man working behind a gun Counter", thats a better rumor

I think that Remington has probably lost a lot of its public market share to "the other guys". The number of companies competing with them now isnt like it was 20 years ago. However, as long as big green keeps its military contracts I see no reason for them to sink.
Did their "spartan" line of Ruskie rifles ever come to its fruition? Ive not noticed them on the shelves yet.

quote:

However, as long as big green keeps its military contracts I see no reason for them to sink.

Chrysler also had substantial military contracts.....and of course they are now Mercedes.....

True.

just read where big green and baikal, think russian, have joined forces. remington is importing baikal shotguns, they look? likr some pretty nice firearms. some almost pretty sxs's.

gotta see how this plays out.

JosyWales, The TOP guy at Remington, just approved the upgrades to their SHOT Show booth, I suspect he would know if there were any problems.

New rumor:

Maybe Remington and Winchester have been been studying management technics and tricks from the airlines industries. Run the company to hell and let the bankcrupcy trustee sort it all out.

quote:

the big fat guy behind the gun counter at my local gun store (who has shot 4 mule deer over forty inches, but has no heads or pictures cause they burned up in a housefire) said he owns 51% of the stock in remington and they are not going bankrupt!

Well there you have it! The facts that put this rumor to rest!

quote:

Originally posted by poulsbo:
the big fat guy behind the gun counter at my local gun store (who has shot 4 mule deer over forty inches, but has no heads or pictures cause they burned up in a housefire) said he owns 51% of the stock in remington and they are not going bankrupt!

Hey that's my dad, and it is not 51% it is 85%. He works at the gunshop to get Ideas for what cartridge should be chambered next. Heck I'm the one who suggested to bring back the 350 mag. The 710 was my Idea too, now the Cor-Lokt Utlra now that was his design but I helped him we designed it our basement at home one night.

Well folks, the fact's do not look good...

Not-so-good...

Numbers in Parentheses are negative...

The 710 was my Idea too,

==============================================================

Aren't you a little bit ashamed to confess that on a public forum??

Well I don't like to brag but the Mountain rifle was My idea too. The Model 700 classics yep you guessed it my Idea to. I just talked to my dad and he said as long as he owns controlling stock Remington will never go under. As a matter of fact he his thinking about buying winchester too, and quitting his job at the locla gunstore and go work for Cabelas more contacts thereas far hunter go, better Ideas cause god knows I'm running out of them. My last creation is a 700ADL with a hinged floor plate. chambered in a 6.5 Carcano now that would be sweet rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Harris:
The 710 was my Idea too,

==============================================================

Aren't you a little bit ashamed to confess that on a public forum??

Did you see where Big Green upgraded the 710 by changing the action from plastic to steel, to make the bolt cycle feel better? It's like putting lipstick on a pig.

quote:

Originally posted by Collins:
Well folks, the fact's do not look good...

Not-so-good...

Numbers in Parentheses are negative...

Do the (negative) numbers cause the bad quality complaints we've been reading about....or vice versa?????

In my VERY humble experience as a fancy assed / High Falootin' business dude. Quality control / assurance is cut to improve profits which do increase until the now crap products make it into the supply chain. Once you have the bad rap... it's yours to keep. I bought a Dodge in 84. I'll never buy another.

Long story short... Vice Versa.

Remington could be vary well be experiencing financial difficulties. Most big corporations do from time to time. Lets face it, we all have had trouble paying the light bill a few times in our lives. I’m a Canadian so I’m not to up on US law ..... BUT! There is a provision in US law that allows corporations to file for chapter 11. As I understand it chapter 11 lets big companies keep running for an extended period of time by allowing them to thumb their nose’s at the banks and creditors. I would assume it’s a way to keep employment in the country from suffering. Most gun companies have at one time or another filed for chapter 11 and I have never seen one fall after doing so. They either arrange a sale of the company or sit down and get their collective assets back in line and turn the books around. But every time one of those companies did this every Tom Dick and Harry in the gun world started screaming bloody disaster was forthcoming. Remington has been sold many times because it was losing money. So was Winchester and Smith & Wesson. The new owners pump in new money and new blood and turn the company around. Most people don’t know the difference between bankruptcy and chapter 11. In fact most people think it’s the same thing. Well, it’s not! Quite frankly I wouldn’t be at all surprised to learn that Remington had file for it. A lot of times its just good business to snub some on for a while so that you can appropriate some funds to put into another project that will make you a lot of money. Its not crooked at all. The laws are the laws and you take advantage of the laws whenever they suit you. It’s called good business and that’s what the USA is based on! There is an old saying. It’s been re-told to death ...... but. “IT’S NOT THE PROFITS THAT MAKE YOU MONEY! IT’S THE PROFITS PLAYED AGAINST THE WELL PLAYED LOSSES THAT MAKE YOU RICH BEYOND YOUR DREAMSâ€! Rod Henrickson

Going under? Maybe.

Going to Hell in a handbasket? I think so.

Please give us our old Remington back! (Sorry, VG!)

Redial

quote:

Originally posted by Collins:
In my VERY humble experience as a fancy assed / High Falootin' business dude. Quality control / assurance is cut to improve profits which do increase until the now crap products make it into the supply chain. Once you have the bad rap... it's yours to keep. I bought a Dodge in 84. I'll never buy another.

Long story short... Vice Versa.

Collins I couldn't agree more.
And the pendulum swings to slice the daily definition of quality to meet the false profit goals of future bankrupt businesses.

Just out of curiosity, what is the SG&A Expense item that is runnng them about $70 million per year?

Any time I see a single expense line item that is 25% additional to the total cost of goods sold, on a revenue as large as $300 million, I get a little nervous about who is setting the accounting policies, and to what end?

Especially makes me nervous about the "books" when that item dings what would otherwise be a $90 million gross profit...

Probably would be easier for me to understand if the financial was foot-noted to define SG&A.

So, is that a "real" loss, or a "paper" loss reported for some other reason than showing the true financial health of the enterprise?

I have seen companies operate close to the edge for a long time. Remington has a tough job ahead of them in the future.

One thing I learned about in business class. Leveraging debt yeilds great income when the times are good, and a very bad time when times are bad. It will be interesting to see how Remington will do the next couple of years.

Aaron

Look at the balance sheet, it looks like they took out an extra $100,000,000 loan and bought stock back from the owners..Looks like management is taking the "take the money and run" management method
http://www.hoovers.com/remington-arms/--ID__54332,perio...co-fin-balance.xhtml

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
Just out of curiosity, what is the SG&A Expense item that is runnng them about $70 million per year?

Any time I see a single expense line item that is 25% additional to the total cost of goods sold, on a revenue as large as $300 million, I get a little nervous about who is setting the accounting policies, and to what end?

Especially makes me nervous about the "books" when that item dings what would otherwise be a $90 million gross profit...

Probably would be easier for me to understand if the financial was foot-noted to define SG&A.

So, is that a "real" loss, or a "paper" loss reported for some other reason than showing the true financial health of the enterprise?

Alberta Canuck,

I’m pretty much brain-dead when it comes to accounting, but I have worked in the motion picture business for over 30 years and know how easy it is for companies rolling in dough to show a “paper-loss.â€

Years ago James Garner had to sue Universal over his portion of the profit shares on The Rockford Files. At the time that show was the most successful syndicated TV show in history and yet according to the books was still running at a huge loss.

The writer on Forest Gump had to do the same thing because Paramount claimed that the movie didn’t make any money.

It’s a standing joke in the motion picture industry that no movie made by a major studio/network has ever shown a profit on paper!

quote:

Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:
ary contracts I see no reason for them to sink.
Did their "spartan" line of Ruskie rifles ever come to its fruition? Ive not noticed them on the shelves yet.

One of the kids (co-worker's son) on my trap team bought one of those over/under shotguns at Gander Mountain. While it isn't a Perazzi or anything, it is not badly made, swings nice. A bit clubby in the stock, but for what he paid, not bad. I don't think he got a full set of choke tubes with it, though.

Haven't seen any of their rifles.

SBB

Aaron -

I hope your answer is not the correct one, but fear it may be...

I once worked with a small-medimum size oil company that kept several hundered million in cash in the bank. I tried to warn them that was not a wise strategy, but for various reasons they continued on the same path. Result was that another oil company bought a controlling interest in the stock, savaged the cash reserves and other assets, and then sold the hulk. Luckily for me, I had moved on.

Managment can do lots of legal things, such as you suggest, which ruin the long-term financial possibilities. Hope that is not the case at Big Green, but as CEOs and their hangers-on get more rapacious, bad things can happen...

Too many bean counters running businesses today. I've been involved with some of these dudes, but not in the gun line.
You, as a technical guy, can tell them NOTHING. They've reached the exhaulted position of CEO, and they know EVERYTHING. Only problem is, they don't know anything about design, manufacturing or quality. The only thing they know is how to finagle the books. Your imagination will lead you to how the tune ends. Sure, consumers like me just buy Toyota's and CZ's. No problem at all. I have 4 CZ's that shoot far better than they deserve to shoot for the price.
When Remington was in Ilion, they were great. Not now.. They probably sit around every morning in their staff meetings for two hours complaining about how stupid us American consumers are for buying CZ's and Toyota's, when they could be out finding out why their products suck, and why nobody buys them.
I used to own lots of Remington rifles as well as shotguns for skeet and trap shooting. Not any more.
Look no further than the 504. It needs a major overhaul to get it to shoot well, before it is ever shot the first time. The initial accuracy reports about it when it first came out were appalling. And, it's about twice the price of a CZ 452, which has a GREAT accuracy track record.
And, the beat goes on...
Don

It seems one of the execs at Savage is a shooter and worked to install the accu-trigger.....something savage badly needed.

They need a lot more too but there's someone at the top that gives a shit.....this is what's lacking at Remington.

I wish we could tell them.....but they really don't care about the customer.....

A quick review of this thread reveals such facts as:

-“A fellow there said….â€
-“I think that….â€
-“Maybe Remington and Winchester….â€
-“Remington could well be…â€
-“I once worked with….â€

Hard facts these. A ‘net search found nothing about Remington filing for bankruptcy and another search found a 12/03 interview with Tommy Millner, CEO of Remington. There’s much more to the interview but perhaps these excerpts will explain some of the debt on the balance sheet and the corporate operating philosophy:

“Millner: My partners and I have a core belief, one we've held for 25 years, that officers of a company like ours should be owners of the company. They should have their hard cash on the table. When anyone has a large part of their net worth tied up in their business, it personalizes the commitment to excellence and success because you have a lot to lose. So, I and all of our senior people, all of our officers, have had from day one a significant amount of personal net worth tied-up in money we have invested in the company…………

In our recapitalization earlier this year, we were able to attract $30 million of new capitol from an investor group that had not previously invested in this industry. When they looked at the industry, much like ATK must have, they said, you know, pretty good business, pretty good place to get a return. For all the doomsayers in the industry, this should be a real wake-up call--outside investors look at this industry, for all of its challenges, as a great place to invest capitol.

Our new partners have enabled us to look at several new options. In the past three months, we have aggressively looked at about four different acquisitions. We're not interested in buying a golf club company or tennis racket business. We know who we are. We are a hunting company, a gun company and an ammo company, and all the possible acquisitions are complimentary. If we can pull them off, they will significantly escalate the size of our business.â€

In such forums, one hears about “bean counters running the companyâ€, quite often in reference to Remington but one never hears about the bean counters at Ithaca, Winchester, Savage or the original Kimber, all which have succumbed to or had a brush with corporate death. Perhaps they should have had some. And as for the good ol’ Remington from Ilion, that was then and this is now. Times and the gun bidness have changed. There’s probably more competition than ever and there’s downward price pressure on darn near everything.

Somewhere in this thread it was stated that Remington had been sold several times because it was losing money but that does not appear to be the case according to Remington’s company history. There have been many corporate maneuverings but the last time the company was in dire straits was in the 1880’s when the only thing that saved it was selling the Rolling Block to every military in the world who would buy it.

Remington is and always has been a U. S. company and I like that. It’s bean-countin’ has produced 3 of the top-selling guns in the market and as for their customer care, I’ve dealt with them 3 times and they more than stepped up to the plate each time.

Pardon my rant.

Good post rogue...and welcome!

Looking at balance sheets, as I tried to point out in my post, is not always a good indicator of the actual worth of a company...but neither is relying on the public statements of the CEO of a business. Their job is to put a happy-face on everything all of the time.

If you haven’t noticed yet, the mere mention of anything having to do with Remington on this site will normally bring forth some of the most vitriolic spew you can imagine!

I am, and have always been, a fan of Remington...but I must admit I do not own a single factory made Remington rifle, or any other factory made rifle for that matter. In my opinion all factory rifles suffer from the same problems...and I totally understand the economics that are at the root of those problems, and cannot fault the companies (any of them) for the economic decisions they are forced to make if they want to stay in business.

Rogue1, nice post. Sometimes we all forget that any company that wants to stay in business for very long has to have at least a few bean counters on the payroll.

My orginal intent with this post was to see if any body had heard anything about this. Apparently not.
My guess on the way the books look is that they are making keeping themselves prtected from lawsuits. Just a guess.