So i got a new barrel a while back, i'll leave out the barrel makers name for now. I was getting some pretty poor groups. i'd load up 10 and it was just about a shotgun pattern on the paper(10" groups at 300yards)

so i decided to give the barrel a really good clean and go from there(i never broke the barrel in becasue it's not really necessary from a match grade barrel and i never had to with another barrel i got from the same barrel maker) So i cleaned for hours and was still getting copper out. i had a quick look at the muzzle and it was orange, got out my flashlight and it was solid orange for about 3/4" i couldn't see too well past 1" so i assumed it was just at the muzzle, anyway i let my bore cleaner sit over night in the barrel, cleaned it the next morning and removed most of the copper. and of course took some pictures of what i found.

[IMG:left] [/IMG]
I think it's called railroading or something, left over from the tooling and improper hand lapping of the barrel? am i wrong in thinking this barrel should not have been sent to me and is of poor craftsmanship. i am also under the impression once a barrel is finished it cannot be handlapped again? before i tell you what the barrel maker said i just want your opinion.

p.s. when i take a toothpick and drag it across the tool marks there is a distinct ridge and valley.

quote:

Originally posted by crout:
So i got a new barrel a while back, i'll leave out the barrel makers name for now. I was getting some pretty good but not so good groups. what i mean is 2 bullets would be very close then one would be anywhere up to 18" away. so i'd load up 10 and sure enough it was just about a shotgun pattern on the paper(10" group at 300yards)

so i decided to give the barrel a really good clean and go from there(i never broke the barrel in becasue it's not really necessary from a match grade barel and i never had to with another barrel i got from the same barrel maker) So i cleaned for hours and was still getting copper out. i had a quick look at the muzzle and it was orange, got out my flashlight and it was solid orange for about 3/4" i couldn't see too well past 1" so i assumed it was just at the muzzle, anyway i let my bore cleaner sit over night in the barrel, cleaned it the next morning and removed most of the copper. and of course took some pictures of what i found.


I think it's called railroading or something, left over from the tooling and improper hand lapping of the barrel?

Why would you leave the name of the barrel manufacturer out. That's a raggedy ass looking bore. It's got hop, skip and jump written all over it. How far back did you cut the blank before crowning it?

Westpac has a good point about length.

It doesn't look to me that it was lapped at all.

NOT ALL barrels are lapped from the factory. It's more work and should bring more coin. If they told you it was lapped, I ask them "Are you sure??????"

Looks like a Douglas to me.

JUST SO EVERYONE IS CLEAR THIS BARREL CAME TO ME EXACTLY AS SHOWN, IT CAME PRE CHAMBER, HAND LAPPED, CUT AND CROWNED. sorry for the caps.

I've never had a hand lapped barrel that arrived looking that unfinished. I've had several Savage rifles in the 80s that came with barrels that looked a lot like that, but they all shot well.

If I ever recieved a barrel that looked like that, whether in an off the shelf rifle of a custom barrel, I would never buy anything from them again. Period. I wish you would divulge the maker of that quinine looking peice of dog do-do.

James,

I thought Douglas had a pretty good reputation. Have you had problems with them?

"Looks like a Douglas to me."

Steve

That is tool chatter Plain and simple.
That barrel was not made correctly Send it back and get a replacement.

It appears to me that it was button rifled, then was to be lapped. The fact that the reamer marks are still very visible, I would assume that the barrel slipped past the lapping station and made it out of the shop without getting lapped. If the barrel had been lapped at all, the reamer marks should not be quite so visible.

I scope all barrels that I get no matter who made them. I would have sent that one back to begin with. I have never seen an Adams and Bennett that looked that bad. I don't think a whole lot of their crown, either, chamfer doesn't appear uniform and is too big. MHO....Tom

quote:

Originally posted by skl1:
James,

I thought Douglas had a pretty good reputation. Have you had problems with them?

"Looks like a Douglas to me."

Steve

I'm not picking on Douglas. Just counting to 6. If it was a Shilen wouldn't it have 8? It looks button rifled and not hand lapped. Just guessing Douglas. Most of the Douglas barrels I've installed shoot pretty good, they just don't look or clean as good as a cut rifled hand lapped barrel. Looking down a bunch of different barrels with a borescope is a real eye opener. Although, just because it looks smooth, doesn't mean it will shoot any better.

Again, not picking on Douglas. Just guessing.

just the response i was looking for. I am prety new to shooting and even newer to precision rifle barrels. eventually i may reveal the maker but i want the barrel maker to right the wrong they have made and own up to their mistake. I also don't want to be sued for slander. Here's the rest of the story up to date. sorry for the novel. any advice would be great.

I called the barrel maker and told them my problem and what i thought was the problem(the barrel was not lapped properly, and probably not at all). I talked to a lady who didn't really know much and then she put me on to a guy who is one of the barrel makers. i told him exactly what i just posted above and i could tell from his tone how embarrassed he was. he said "when did you order it?" so i told him and he said "oh, that was when so and so was working here, he is no longer with us" he told me to send him the barrel and that i would be taken care of. i made mention to all the $$ spent trying to get the barrel to shoot and he said don't worry we'll take care of it(I'm cheap so i was hoping for some sort of compensation).

So i sent the barrel, they got it and 4 days after they got it i called to find out how everything was going. They said it's all done. I got a lady who is(supposed to be) knowledgeable in the barrel making proces and she said there is nothing wrong with the barrel. it is within spec and that for my benefit they lapped the barrel again. now the buzzer is going off in my head because when you lap a barrel the bore diameter is getting larger and a properly lapped barrel gets lapped before they cut the barrel and crown it(am i wrong?) so after raising a bit of stink she puts me on to the owner!!

He stared talking to me like i was 5 and telling me how a barrel is made. I interupted and said "yes i know how to properly make a barrel, so what happened with mine?" i asked why it was shipped out in such rough shape and why the crown looks so rough and the rest of the barrel appears smooth. So he says "well the crown was all you could see but the tool marks run sporadically throughout the length of the barrel(30" by the way) He also said the barrel air guaged within acceptable range (0.0003") I of coursed called B.S. and told him that was impossible with how deep the tooling marks are.

HE said the bore was much nicer and cleaner and it would shoot well for me. and that it still air guages within the accepetable limit. he was also insitant i should break in the barrel(even though on their website they say it's not necessary)

So i was done talking and i wanted my barrel and i was tired of being lied to. and he never made any mention of compensation and after much persistance on my part he offered to refund my shipping charges. sure whatever. so he puts me back onto the receptionist and she says the barrel will be shipped out within a couple of days once they get the export permits. this was 17days ago give or take a day.

So i called back 2 days ago because they never sent me a tracking number and i was getting concerned my barrel was stuck at customs. nope! they haven't ship yet. i asked if they where having problems with the permit. so she kindly told me that they cleaned(lapped) it up again and then cleaned it again(how many times can you lap a bloody barrel) she said "it will be shipped out tomorrow" so obviously they had forgotten and lied some more to me. they will never get my business again and neither will the company who sold me the barrel as he sided with the barrel maker even after seeing the pictures. He said "the barrel was made to an acceptable finish. Didn't work for you so they are making it better"

crout,

From what I read in your last post, I don't see any reason for you to keep the barrel makers name a secret. They are not standing behind their product and they obviously shipped you a poorly machined, lapped and crowned barrel. For you to disclose the maker and simply telling the truth, and providing a photograph to back up your statements, I don't see how you could be accused of slander. Besides, you gave them every opportunity to make things right. I sure as hell would not want to purchase a barrel from them. Tell us who made the barrel!

Gracias,
Hoot

Crout,
Did you buy this barrel from an installing gunsmith or from the original barrel maker?

The barrel came from the manufacturer to my importer then straight to me. and obviuosly my importer didn't check the barrel over before forwarding it on to me. why should he, right? It came form one of the largest or the largest barrel makers in the USA.

quote:

Originally posted by crout:
(I'm cheap so i was hoping for some sort of compensation)

Crout,

I'm sure the barrel folks knew you were wanting some kind of compensation. When the barrel comes back, shoot it and see how it performs and then you'll have something to go on. If it performs well, then they probably did what they said.

10 years ago I got a 6mm Addams and Bennet bull barrel for $40 from Midway.
I put it on a trued Mauser action and chambered for 243.
It had two fouling shots.
Then shot a 1" 5 shot group at 100 yards.
Then shot a increasingly larger groups.
It was badly Copper fouled.
It took days of scrubbing with Sweet's 7.62 to get the Copper out.
Again, a fouling shot, 1" group, and then the groups got bigger until the primers started falling out. The throat had fouled.
I cleaned it again, and the looked at the bore.
The bore looked like an inverted rat tailed file.
The grooves had hatch marks that corresponded with hatch marks on the lands, as if the button had chattered.
I put the gun in storage and have not shot it since.

I have started inspecting my bores for smoothness.
The ones that get A's are:
Lilja
Shilen Stainless select match
Lothar Walther
Krieger
Hart
Parker Hale

The ones that do not look good:
Douglas
Pac Nor
Addams and Bennet
Green Mountain
Shilen Chrome moly
Remington factory
Winchester factory
Ruger factory
Savage factory
Marlin factory

Some of the barrels that don't look good are accurate, don't foul, and don't change zero when hot. In short they are as good as the barrels that look good.
But some of the barrels that don't look good are a waste of time.

My current strategy is to buy Shilen stainless steel select match and Lothar Walther Chrome moly. I think these are the cheapest barrels that will always meet or exceed my expectations.

quote:

she says the barrel will be shipped out within a couple of days once they get the export permits. this was 17days ago give or take a day.

While waiting for the permit you could take a very long nap. The barrel maker has no control on how fast the permit goes through, except for filling it out correctly.

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:

quote:

she says the barrel will be shipped out within a couple of days once they get the export permits. this was 17days ago give or take a day.

While waiting for the permit you could take a very long nap. The barrel maker has no control on how fast the permit goes through, except for filling it out correctly.

yes i know. she did say a day or two and i gave her 14 days. that wasn't the concern. she obtained no permit(or even attempted to attain one) she said they're just going to send it and it should get to me. the only reasonable explanation for the delay in shipping is they forget and then i got some more exucess as to the delay. the reasonas are not true in my mind.

quote:

within a couple of days once they get the export permits.

quote:

she did say a day or two and i gave her 14 days.

I was trying to say this could take 6 months with no fault of the barrelmaker.

As a good friend said, "this is one of the new "6R" rifling methods. The "R" stands for ridges!."

Crout

Think for a moment about the situation as it has developed from the makers view. They get a call about a bad barrel from a buyer who is likely low volume and has no history with the company. In that call, "compensation" is brought up.

-----""i made mention to all the $$ spent trying to get the barrel to shoot and he said don't worry we'll take care of it(I'm cheap so i was hoping for some sort of compensation)."" -----

In spite of the initial favorable response, large red flags have just gone up all over. They don't know you and in our current society, their common sense and their liability lawyers will have all kinds of limits on what they can say and do.

If you talk to them again, ask them if this barrel is a typical example of the work they produce. If it is, then they should have no problem with you publishing the picture and makers name.

A lot of guys work with guns, some because they like to, some to save money. This experience supports those who say the cheap way to get something done is to have a professional do it right the first time. If the barrel looks as bad to the eye as the photo looks, (photos sometimes look a lot worse than real life) I think most experienced people would not have installed that barrel.

If all it costs you is one barrel and some time and aggravation, consider that a very inexpensive learning experience.

quote:

Originally posted by RogerR:
Crout

Think for a moment about the situation as it has developed from the makers view. They get a call about a bad barrel from a buyer who is likely low volume and has no history with the company. In that call, "compensation" is brought up.

-----""i made mention to all the $$ spent trying to get the barrel to shoot and he said don't worry we'll take care of it(I'm cheap so i was hoping for some sort of compensation)."" -----

In spite of the initial favorable response, large red flags have just gone up all over. They don't know you and in our current society, their common sense and their liability lawyers will have all kinds of limits on what they can say and do.

If you talk to them again, ask them if this barrel is a typical example of the work they produce. If it is, then they should have no problem with you publishing the picture and makers name.

A lot of guys work with guns, some because they like to, some to save money. This experience supports those who say the cheap way to get something done is to have a professional do it right the first time. If the barrel looks as bad to the eye as the photo looks, (photos sometimes look a lot worse than real life) I think most experienced people would not have installed that barrel.

If all it costs you is one barrel and some time and aggravation, consider that a very inexpensive learning experience.

i'm not experienced as i previously said and as i also previously said the barrel maker is very reputable so why should i examine the barrel. it should have been examined multiple times before it got to me. that's really the whole point here. not that i installed a bad barrel but that a bad barrel left the factory.

I am aslo thinking of it from there point of view "ONE OF THE LARGEST IN NA" they should do everything in there powder to make it right not feed me a bunch of balogney, and who cares about compensation as i said we agreed that he would refund my shipping and we both agreed to this, so red flags have been lowered. all they had to do was stick with their original story that it came off production from an ex-employee and he got fired for a reason. but they kept changing the story and kept telling me they lapped the barrel to fix the problem(4 times in total since they got it). i know accidents happen i just wanted someone to own up and say "sorry, we will replace the barrel for you"
instead of "there is nothing wrong with the barrel"

But i know what you're trying to say RogerR.
also it is a very expensive learning curve $450 to me is expensive plus the $200+ in components shipping and fuel. I have learned my lesson.

Let me tell you something I've unfortunately learned.

If you are not a high volume, or well known smith, don't buy these things directly. or through a second party if you don't have a relationship with them. I recently had an item that I had bought, probably will only ever by half a dozen. something was wrong with it and I called them, their answer was much less than desirable.

well, they'll never get my business again, but they won't care. If I had been one of their big dollar clients I'm sure it would have been no problem. I didn't bother to post about it. why? they have a good name, good reputation, I'd get flack, and there is no point. lesson learned.

two points I'm trying to make with this. 1. if you're going to keep this up put the frickin' name up, otherwise its a waste. and irritating as shit. 2. buy from somebody else that has the buying power to get results.

the other day I dropped off a rifle to get fixed, chamber was too tight, original shop, here locally, is fixing it. they're not on the level of some of the smiths here, but I like the fact they stand behind their work. this was done years ago, and the gunsmiths that were with them then (probably 6 years ago at least) are gone now. but they are still fixing it for free.

anyways, while I was in there I asked how much it is to get a new barrel on a rifle (barrel, installed, blued) 675!!!!! now, I don't know if that is same price everywhere, but its about how much you're into your project, and they would have stood behind it.

just saying what the other guy said, sometimes best way to save money is to spend it up front.

Red

Looks like to me it is time to change barrel makers.

For the life of me, I cannot see why you want to "protect" the maker of this barrel. Dago Red has some good points, specifically about your not being a volume buyer. That should not make any difference. These guys are giving you the run around and you just roll over and take it. You are not a volume buyer but, via the internet you can reach thousands of shooters who are considering buying barrels. The total of these prospective buyers are the largest volume buyer any barrel manufacturer will have. Would you rather have some large volume buyer, like Midway, return a barrel to you for replacement, or have a thousand individuals who will not consider your barrel because of poor quality control and absolutely no customer service.

So, in my view, if you are going to take this laying down, then take this laying down, and close this thread.

wow, i never expected to get crapped on for buying a crappy barrel. does it really matter who made the barrel? the point is was the barrel garbage when it was sent to me? should it have been sent to me? and did the barrel maker do his job in making things right by fixing the problem? well we'll see on the last point.

If you all must know it is a shilen match barrel(not select match) but that doesn't matter. they make a great product as i have another one of their barrels and it shoots great and does not copper foul at all. hence my expectations for this barrel and my confusion for their less than adequate reasons as to why the barrel was as they claim "within acceptable limits".

No i'm not a volume buyer but my distributor is and for that reason i expected a little better treatment and some honesty.

My real reason for this thread was not to drag someones name in the mud but for clarification of who was right and who was wrong. and thank you all for answering my intent.

I would have never guessed.

All the Shilen barrels I've used were 8 grove.

It's been a while since I've installed one.

Had very good luck with all of them.

Regardless, they should make it right.

Since you still don't have the barrel back, the jury is still out.

Another thing to consider is being a button barrel, the ridges you see in the picture are probably more optical than dimensional.

crout

My take on this is that people here are not wanting you to "drag someone's name in the mud", but rather to help your fellow shooters. Probably like most of the posters here I work very hard for my money, and usually don't have a lot to waste. If I am going to spend money on something I would really like to know what the best item for my money is, be it gun parts, guns, cars, anything. If I knew in advance the kind of treatment you received from that company, I would think twice about dealing with that company. I don't have a problem with the barrel you bought, as every once in awhile there is going to be a bad one that slips through. What really bothers me is how they handled it after that bad one slipped through. Reading your post, it seems like you were dealing with a company that has no idea what their employees say when someone calls as different people gave you different answers. That is more of a red flag to me than getting the bad product in the first place.
Anyway, hope this all works out for you and they end up standing behind what they sell.

Another thing to consider.

Your accuracy problem could be attributed to much more than just the barrel. So blaming the accuracy on just the first picture of this post somehow exonerates the rest of the rifle, scope, ammunition & shooter????????????????????????

quote:

Originally posted by congomike:
crout
I don't have a problem with the barrel you bought, as every once in awhile there is going to be a bad one that slips through. What really bothers me is how they handled it after that bad one slipped through. Reading your post, it seems like you were dealing with a company that has no idea what their employees say when someone calls as different people gave you different answers. That is more of a red flag to me than getting the bad product in the first place.
Anyway, hope this all works out for you and they end up standing behind what they sell.

We don't know how this was handled. We weren't there, we've heard only one side. This is the internet. A place where folks can say, do, or, be anything they like. I've dealt with Shilen for years and have never encountered anything but professionalism. But then I don't start the conversation off telling them how much money I have spent trying to get their product to perform, while fishing and angling for some other compensation. Perhaps the initial tone could have been set that would have resulted in a better response. But we'll never know, we weren't there.

Chatter with tooling is never acceptable as it reduces tool life and produces poor finish.
I would have sent Shilen the photo and asked them to replace the barrel and not made any comment further. After you have made proper communication with the maker and not gotten good response then you may put it on a forum and named the company.

Westpac:
You bring up a very valid point....I might have said too much, too soon......

quote:

Originally posted by crout:
..

If you all must know it is a shilen match barrel(not select match) but that doesn't matter.

I have a couple chrome moly Shilen barrels from Brownells and they are rough.
I called Ed Shilen and he said to buy the Stainless, as they are all lapped.
Shilen sells Chrome moly barrels that have been lapped for a reasonable extra charge, but Shilen will not give me a price break on the barrel iself.
Brownells OTOH will sell me the Shilen barrels they stock at a discount.
But Brownells only stocks the non lapped Shilen Chrome Moly.
So I am done with Shilen Chrome Moly, but I love my Shilen Stainless Select Match barrels and I am buying more.

I want to point out that although I stated the experience and opinion about volume affecting customer service, that doesn't mean I think it should. good customer service is good customer service. I tend to do business with companies, professionals, and so on, that have been recommended to me. Do good by me I send business your way, do bad by me and I'll make sure to let everybody know as well.

the sad thing is, the 1000 people that may read a thread, and then not buy from a company, are likely onesy twosy purchasers like myself. I'm sure that midway buys way more than 1000-2000 barrels. so many companies will look at the situation and NOT do much. people that read threads and already deal with a given company regularly aren't going to likely be dissuaded by somebody else's experience that contradicts their own.

It's only when you get multiple people experiencing problems, and they all make a stink, that things happen. just my opinion of course.

I hope your barrel shows up and is good for you.

Red

So crout is keepin' his lips zipped about the name of the maker. Will you give us a few hints, crout, and let us figger it out for us-selves? No way you can be implicated if we do the figgerin'...

He said Shilen. I would have thought Shilen would have replaced that barrel without question. They definitely let a bad one out. I would contact someone a little higher in the food chain at Shilen.

Shilen has a reputation to uphold, and that is definitely a bad barrel that slipped out, unless it was a reject barrel sold to another outfit, who wasn't supposed to call it a Shilen. Years ago you could buy out of spec Shilen barrels from Numrich dirt cheap, but they didn't say it was a Shilen.

quote:

Originally posted by airgun1:
He said Shilen. I would have thought Shilen would have replaced that barrel without question. They definitely let a bad one out. I would contact someone a little higher in the food chain at Shilen.

Shilen has a reputation to uphold, and that is definitely a bad barrel that slipped out, unless it was a reject barrel sold to another outfit, who wasn't supposed to call it a Shilen. Years ago you could buy out of spec Shilen barrels from Numrich dirt cheap, but they didn't say it was a Shilen.

I talked to the headman himself, and I was told nothing was wrong with the barrel but that he lapped it again for me to remove some of the tooling marks and that if i wanted a perfect crisp barrel the first time i should have gotten a select match and not a match. like 0.0001" is going to make that big of a difference, not one as obviuos as in the picture. I just felt a bit burned when the owner of shilen couldn't even say a mistake had been made.

Where did you get you info Airgun? There is probably another side of this story. I am not saying he didn't get a barrel that was unacceptable, but it could have been a little different than told. Not trying to box your chops as my wife does to our Grandsons, but sometimes our presentation of a problem may cause the other person to raise their hackles.
I have been involved with Shilen for many years and this is just not their policy.
Butch