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Nothing like copying somebody else's art work. IMO, if you're going to make money duplicating stocks you should be making the patterns yourself. | |||
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That’s almost identical to a Hoenig machine. | |||
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Dakota Machine clone | |||
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You duplicate what sells. | |||
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Never seen one. Hafta look it up... | |||
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Here is mine that was built in house , very similar set up, I use a water cooled router motor and a VFD to control speed. All my patterns are either from original guns or ones I built. Lots of British single shot patterns, some Mausers etc. http://bertramandco.com/wood-work.html | |||
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 What the customer wants it is his $$.  As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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There's no dilemma. A gunmaker should use whatever tools they have at their disposal in order to provide the best possible product to their customers. If this includes a stock duplicator, so be it. I find the idea of handicapping oneself in the name of "art" to be counterproductive. I have dozens of stock patterns and not one of them has been left unaltered. Most are covered in pink bondo. LOP, Cast, Comb shape, whether the stock has a drop box or not. These are all factored into the pattern before duplicating. All of the finer details are done post-duplication anyways so there's plenty of artistry work left to do by hand.
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I stand by my statement. So, If someone sends you a Duane Wiebe custom rifle stock to copy will you be happy to give the customer what he wants????? I wouldn't, unless I got Duane's blessing. Don't think I'd grow balls big enough to ask him. | |||
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I agree with this VERY talented gunmaker 100 percent. I use my duplicator for custom stocks most every time. I do use my own patterns shaped from a blank. A talented operator with a duplicator can squeeze every possible amount of color and layout from every blank that gets duplicated. | |||
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I need to buy some more A&D ointment. Here's a quote from his vid page.
REALLY??? pic of a Don Allen patented machine https://patents.google.com/patent/US4227557A/en that a famous dead gunmaker that copyrighted his custom floormetals told me was a copy of somebody else's machine.... https://s3.amazonaws.com/vs-lu...ocks.com/m4tzejl.jpg | |||
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Regardless of the machine. He's dumb bastard for not having a good mask on when running that thing! Lung cancer killed Ed Shulin and he wore a mask. George "Gun Control is NOT about Guns' "It's about Control!!" Join the NRA today!" LM: NRA, DAV, George L. Dwight | |||
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I worked for Dakota for several years, assembled duplicators and trained clients that purchased the duplicator in it's use. I could have built one from memory, but decided to come up with my own design that has almost nothing in common with what has been marketed in the past. I'm beyond thrilled that I can now push the cycle start button to machine what I need. Not looking for duplicating or duplicator business here, just believe that very little happens in the gunmaking world without the innovation from those that have gone before us. Don Allen marketed the machine that this thread is linked to. Based on my insider knowledge of the custom gunmaking world, I believe that innovation is as important as the promotion and marketing. I believe that credit needs to go where credit is due. If you build or buy a duplicator, you need to duplicate your own patterns or have permission to do so. | |||
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Not true. I loved him like a favorite uncle. Ed died from pancreatic cancer and he made all the patterns that were available to the students for duplication on his Don Allen machine when I was at TSJC. I bought a thumb-hole pattern from him after being one of his students. He had no issues with me making any money with this. I have never used it. When and if I do, I will give full credit where it's due. | |||
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I would agree with you george. The largest electric motor in my shop is for the cyclone dust collector with HEPA filter. Well, until I got my "new" Milltronics CNC. When I was a student at TSJC, Ed wore a HEPA respirator when duplicating stocks. He also wore headphones playing what I would consider elevator music. Ed was the best teacher I ever had. | |||
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No need for A & D ointment.
But here is an interesting question. If, as it has been said, the custom Gunmaker makes exactly what the customer wants, then would not the custom stock pattern that the customer ordered belong to that customer? | |||
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Hee Hee...for the record....anyone can use any of the stocks I've ever made for a "pattern" | |||
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I really doubt any stock pattern is copy written or patented. | |||
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First, copywright wouldn't apply to a gun stock it is part a "system". Second, to patent something it must be a) novel - meaning new b) sufficiently inventive—i.e., non-obvious. This refers to that the inventive "thing" must be an adequate distance above the current state of the art. Given that modern rifle and shotguns have been around for a 100 plus years it would be pretty tough to come up with something that is patent-able. I am curios if you handed a stockmaker 10 black fiberglass replicas of various but similar stocks without checkering and said: "One of these 10 is a replica of custom stock you made 10 years ago, please identify your stock". How many could pick out their stock? Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Straight from https://www.copyright.gov/ When is my work protected? Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of a machine or device. Do I have to register with your office to be protected? No. In general, registration is voluntary. Copyright exists from the moment the work is created. You will have to register, however, if you wish to bring a lawsuit for infringement of a U.S. work. See Circular 1, Copyright Basics, section “Copyright Registration.” | |||
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Duane, Do you keep a record of the folks you make a rifle for, who pull the stock for a pattern? | |||
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James, Yes, work that is copyrightable is copyright protected when it is created. That doesn't mean a stock pattern is copyrightable or patentable. A copyright protects original works of authorship including literary, dramatic, musical, and artistic works, such as poetry, novels, movies, songs, computer software, and architecture. Patentable materials include machines, manufactured articles, industrial processes, and chemical compositions. You should really talk to an attorney. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Time mostly....it took months to build mine. I bought all the stuff on the cheap. GE was decommissioning a factory in Western NY State and I got a great deal on the bearings and some other stuff. If you bought everything retail, maybe 6K in parts. I think I have about 4K in mine, not counting labor. | |||
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Everything....mostly the bearings. The aluminum is not cheap itself, recent tariffs add to the cost. I think you would have at least 6K in one today.....maybe more, just for parts. | |||
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Bullseye! Plus even having a copyright means nothing unless you are willing to battle it out in court defending it...... for decades. | |||
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Thanks for weighing in on this nonsense. It isn't like just having the basic shape means whomever is going to turn out a masterpiece. | |||
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Price some available units and you get to $6-7000 quickly. Or 7000 pounds and shipping from the UK to the US.. You can make a unit for a lot less but you are going to be limited to a duplicator that swings in an arc. So vertical cuts will not be perfect and bottoms not flat. Most home units and even factory units are cut that way. The OP unit and SKB's allow the cutter head to lift vertically as well as allow rotation of the cutter assembly. As skb said price a good quality linear bearing assembly add a water cooled router. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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They are covered here https://www.copyright.gov/registration/visual-arts/
I know, I have one. A patent just like a copyright only protects the owner if they are willing to pay a lawyer to defend it in court and win. Not many in the custom gun trade, me included are willing to do that.
Pretty sure most guys that create something from nothing (from a blank) could do this. I know I could.
Mike, please refer to my above link. I keep throwing strikes and nobody can even get their bat on the ball and foul one off.
I have talked to one. The patent attorney I used years ago had the most incredible Pope and Young mulie on his office wall right behind his desk. It was what I could call a non typical that had such a huge score it made it into the books as typical with the deductions applied. Beautiful critter. | |||
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Sorry Doug, your wrong claiming Bullseye. It's starting to look like a backwards K in the score book. However.... You are correct in your last point about about defending it in court. Just because someone can get away with ripping off someone else's original pattern that doesn't make it right. I can't count how many guys have called up and asked me to copy one of DArcy Echol's stocks. I said, Sure, just get me a letter from Darcy saying it's ok and I'll be happy to do it. Nobody ever called back. Wonder why???? Now here's a meatball right down the middle of the strike zone. "Common Knowledge" says you can make an item for your self that is under patent protection if you don't offer it for sale. This is not true. It is a patent infringement because the patent holder was $crewed out of the money due to them resulting in the loss of the sale to that person that made one for himself. Again your last point about defending it in court holds true. Doesn't make it right. | |||
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Steve I like your machine. Looks sturdier than the Don Allen duplicator. I'm envious of your spindle. I'm still using the under powered router. Unlike the youtube link above, there's not a single part on it that looks like you pulled it off a Don Allen machine. The machine in the video at the top of this thread looks like it was built using prints straight from Dakota with a few VERY minor differences. And he's got the gaul to say "i built the machine myself & it is covered by copyright " Since the patent has long since run out, I'd be ok with him saying something like, "My buddy had a Don Allen machine and I copied it with a few minor changes that make it more convenient." | |||
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You have patented a gun stock? What's the patent number, I would love to read it? Your attorney tells you, you can copyright a gunstock? What's his phone number? I would love to talk to him as I am fascinated by this area of the law. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Mike Do you need me to place the ball on a tee? | |||
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"I can't count how many guys have called up and asked me to copy one of DArcy Echol's stocks." That just doesn't sound good. Kind of like going to a BMW dealer to buy a new Mercedes. James Anderson makes fantastic stocks. If your going to James Anderson you should ask for a James Anderson stock. And D'Arcy Echols makes fantastic stocks as well. If you want one of his go to him. | |||
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Why do you seem to think this is a contest of egos? I would actually like to be proved wrong on this issue. The link you provided doesn't identify anything similar to a part of another system or machine and that has such a utilitarian purpose as a handle. The listing of vessel hulls is interesting but research shows that was added by statute and is specifically related to vessel hulls. Is there case law information that shows something related to something like a gunstock can be classified as a work of art under copyright law? I might buy a checkering pattern could get classified but not the gun stock itself. What it is about any stock design that makes it unique? What characteristics? What are the attributes of the design that can be manipulated? that would make it new, different, and useful? Do you have an opinion letter from an attorney about either subject? Is your patent for a gunstock design? if so would love to read it. Has a patent been issued for any standard wooden gunstock (the kind that a typical gunsmith makes) that has been issued in the last 20 years? Potentially even more relevant is even if one could copyright a stock. The duplication process has enough variation in it given that it is made oversize and then hand finished, there is an argument that its not even an actual copy. I am glad your patent attorney has a nice mule deer, but what did he say about patenting or copyrighting an aftermarket gunstock? Regarding anyone's ability to pick out a fiberglass replica of a gunstock they made from a blank from 10 similar stocks. That would mean their eyes can tell the difference between 10 stocks where some have 1/64th of an inch different in forearm width? or a pistol grip that has a similar minute difference, or the taper of a forend has a similar minute difference. There are probably 4 or more other variables that could come into play. Change some, all, or just 1 and one would have to be able to tell the difference on something they made 10 years ago? That would be amazing! Because making 1 or 2 of those changes makes it a different design. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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My design is a modified Mike Greene duplicator. Once in a blue moon Mike posts here on AR. He was winding down his business, very kindly loaned me a unit and plans and then the design was modified to my needs. I added the sliding platform on linear bearings for the tail stock and made the machine long enough to do a muzzleloader stock. The water cooled router motors are quiet too, huge bonus. I like it, it keeps great tolerances. I think many folks underestimate the learning curve involved running one and the amount of hand work required once the pattern comes off the machine. | |||
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Gentlemen: This isn't a trial. Nobody is on the witness stand for cross examination. Since we don't do formal discovery here (interrogatories and requests for documents) please consider everything you hear as opinion. And thank you to all who commented on the duplicating machine that is the subject matter of this post. | |||
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Im at a loss of the amount of buthurt one machine has caused a single member ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Don' know and don't care..not one of my stocks is a clone from another except for matched pairs. I have no dog in this fight. But having said that, I rally believe that difficulty and time spent making a stock from the blank is very over estimated. Using a duplicator to "do the inletting only" is subject to scrutiny...The most important part of a custom stockl is the precise inletting. Outside shape is the "looks" part and fit to the shooter. I've disassembled a number of guns made by high end (and dollar) makers who use duplicators. Inletting on some...absolutely superb. ( James Anderson's work comes to mind).others absolute shit. In the end, it's not the tools used, it;s the patience and talent of the maker | |||
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