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Mike why don't you call the U.S. Copyright Office? I did. (202)707–3000 or (877)476–0778 Ignorance has a cure. Stupid is forever. Not sure why this thread was resurrected. | |||
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So did I James, about 10 months ago when I found this information and they confirmed my understanding. Colin Powell has a famous quote: "Don't let your position be so close to your ego, that when your position is destroyed so is your ego." It is quite telling that your response is always in the nature of a personal insult. Of course to be insulted on this topic, would require me to value your opinion about this topic. Mike  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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get the cure | |||
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I sincerely doubt you asked if you could take someone else's original artwork, put it in a copy machine and sell the copy. | |||
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No you couldn't and plenty of legal cases prove that. But if it is the same, where are all the cases of copying gunstocks and infringing on someone's copyright? | |||
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Doug You answered yourself very well back on page1.
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A gunstock used as a gunstock is not original artwork it is a "useful article" as defined in the copyright rules. Being made by hand or machine makes no difference. If you hang the gunstock on the wall or display it on a pedestal and call it art then it is art but when you use the gunstock as a gunstock then it is a "useful article" and different "rules" apply. Mike What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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 Are you trying to pigeonhole yourself behind door #2? So.... using your "logic" Mcmillan could sell Legend stocks bypassing any $ for DArcy, cause no contract could hold up in court due to your "fact" that stock design can't be protected. Anyone could just buy a Legend stock and send it to a fiberglass stock company and have a mould made and sell them as well. Right??? I think NOT. | |||
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Hey Mike, Go take a nap. | |||
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Butch, No need to take a nap, as I am enjoying the football games and doing this during commercials. Plus, I don't get worked up about this or take it personal. James, With respect to copyright protection on the stock shape design that's correct, no copyright protection. Now there maybe elements of that stock such as a checkering pattern that can be protected under copyright. Also, there may be elements of the stock structure that were patented that might have been violated but those would be protected under patent infringement and not copyright. Mike What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I've heard this kicked around for more years than I'd admit...and sill the positive answer is elusive. It seems the SLIGHTEST change can circumvent the spirit of copyright and patent laws. And as noted, literally impossible to enforce without a giant bank account d I've decided to ignore obvious copy and live with the old "Imitation is a prime form of flattery" | |||
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Sorry but rights that aren't established and protected by case law aren't rights. Here is a couple of copyright artwork cases that had different outcomes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cariou_v._Prince and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogers_v._Koons In the 1st case even though an artist completely copied another's photograph and then altered it wasn't ruled as infringement. And anybody could see it was a exact copy of someone else's work, then altered. While virtually no one would or could see exhibit A gunstock's copyrighted shape including one copied with a pantograph from millions of similar stocks. | |||
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Doug Have you talked to the US Copyright office concerning this subject? I did and asked them very specific questions concerning this. They confirmed my assumptions. And it's fairly cheap to register. Even though without registering it has copy protection the minute it's created. Again, your post concerning paying a lawyer from page 1 sums it up. The lack of specific case law however doesn't make it legal to copy someone's work. Why do you think a trade deal with china involves intellectual property. We all think it's bad for china to steal IP, but some here think it's fine if it's done here in the US? | |||
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The Copyright Office does not litigate or rule on copyright disputes. What they said means next to nothing. What matters is how the courts have ruled on the copyright of gunstocks or some similar, common item that has been made in the millions over centuries with an infinite variety of forms. Show us the cases where this has occurred to support your argument. Bringing in China, or Ansel Adams is simply a diversion. And actually you can legally exactly copy someone's work. You just have to modify it a bit or enough as Cariou_v._Prince has shown. | |||
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Yeah, must be my lying eyes that only makes it look like an exact copy that has been modified.  The Southern District of New York (SDNY), in March 2011, held that Prince's works were infringing.[4] At that point, the Cariou v. Prince case received significant attention, because the SDNY ordered that Prince's unsold works, and Rizzoli's catalogs, be impounded and destroyed.[3] The SDNY found that the works were not transformative, in part because Richard Prince did not claim to be "commenting upon" the original works. Prince, whose works often sell in galleries for many thousands of dollars, appealed to the Second Circuit. The case was of high interest to the art world, which largely favored Prince's position,[5] and to the photographic community, which largely favored Cariou's position. In April 2013, the Second Circuit reversed the SDNY's decision, finding that most of Prince's works were indeed "transformative" to a "reasonable observer" and therefore fair use.[1] In particular, the Court found that the lower court erred in requiring that the appropriating artist claim to be commenting on the original work, and found works to be transformative if they presented a new aesthetic.[1] The court found 25 of 30 works to be transformative fair use under its standard, and remanded the case to the lower court for reconsideration of 5 of the works under the Second Circuit's new standard. James you clearly are emotionally invested in your beliefs, and no amount of facts will change your opinion. I see no reason to continue on. | |||
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Protection of a design as "intellectual property" is determined at the State level under Laws of unfair competition. I don't know the law in South Dakota. A James Anderson stock design (or anybody else's) may not have much in the way of protection against copying in certain states. Anyway, running a stock through a duplicator is just one step in the shaping of the stock, not a finished copy of anything at that point really, and it would be virtually impossible to prove damages to one's livelihood or reputation claiming an infringement. The ubiquity of the design of a gunstock would make the effort pointless. To what degree would a stocker need to establish their own uniqueness and conversely, to what degree does another need to modify to avoid being labeled a copycat? Establishing either standard would be impossible. Now, if a gunmaker had a commonly recognized design feature that is unique as compared to any other past design, that may mean something. Best example of that that comes to mind is the copyright of the Fender guitar headstock (Stratocaster and Telecaster) which are accepted as commonly recognized design features of a Fender guitar. I'd have to go back and research this more but I think that the fact that Fender applied their logo to the headstock must have had some bearing on their claim since there is no similar claim on the guitar body design which to any casual observer is a Strat or Tele body and there are countless copies of those bodies. | |||
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