Question: you can fire a 38 through a .357 and a 45 LC out of a 454 Casull but neither swap is then properly chambered. what if any effect does this have on accuracy or any other ill effects. I know from using a 357 to shoot competitive steel that after several hundred rounds I couldn't chamber a 357 till I dug out all the (I believe) lead buildup in the cylinder; and it was quite a job to get it out.

Any thoughts or experience>

The problem with shooting cartridges that are short for the chamber is the "crud ring" or buildup of gas byproducts that forms just ahead of the mouth of the case. As you have experienced, it is not an optimal situation, and Freedom Arms specifically warns against it, citing potential for damage to the inside of the chamber.

A far better option is to build a reduced load with the full length cartridge case, assuming you handload. If not, judicial cleaning immediately post-range is essential, or stopping to clean out the residue after about 100 rounds or so.

Reduced loads are by far the better option...

Shooting a lot of short cartridges can eventually lead to pitting just ahead of the cartridge mouth which can cause hard extraction on full length cartridges down the road. This is not so much of a heat or gas cutting issue in handguns as it is that the powder fouling will attract moisture while in storage which creates rust pits. Not as bad or as aggressive as in the charcoal days, but it can still happen over time.

Thanks for the help guys.

quote:

Shooting a lot of short cartridges can eventually lead to pitting just ahead of the cartridge mouth which can cause hard extraction on full length cartridges down the road

Don't know how many rounds it well take I have stainless 357 that has had several 10s of thousands of rounds of 38 spl through it and I have no any pitting of any kind.

As far as accuracy I won several match's shooting 38sl wad-cutters out of it.

I did get horrible accuracy shooting 357 mag in a TC contender 357 max barrel.

Yes, of course you can, without ill effects. Just clean out your chambers every year or so. I have never had any problems with doing it, and I didn't start yesterday.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Yes, of course you can, without ill effects. Just clean out your chambers every year or so. I have never had any problems with doing it, and I didn't start yesterday.

Perhaps you're just not aware of the ill effects. If firing a cartridge out of a proper chamber wasn't important, there would be no such thing as a 45 or 38; there's a good reason for those guns to be made.

Glad it's working for you though. I got tired of scraping out lead and powder buildup with my 357 so I bought a 38 to shot hundreds of rounds at steel targets.

Wonder what would happen if a guy shot a lower velocity round out of the correct case? , hmmmmm.......

It looks like you already had the answer to your question. I do not want to own any standard revolvers; so I just clean any chamber fouling out of my magnums. Works for me.

it's possible you could get crud at the case mouth location of the longer cases.

and if you really mistreat it, where you would pit the barrel, you MIGHT get some issues in the chamber

there's been MILLIONS, if not billions of 38sp fired in 357 AS TARGET LOADS


unless you grossly mistreat your guns and have horrible reloading practice, it would be hard to damage the firearm.

I shot some 38 Special wadcutter loads in my Dan Wesson 357 Max as and experiment and they were accurate.

quote:

Originally posted by pennfly:
Wonder what would happen if a guy shot a lower velocity round out of the correct case? , hmmmmm.......

That's what you're supposed to do.

In answer to those saying clean your gun, when I come home from a shoot, I clean my guns immediately so I dont let that go by the wayside and still couldn't load a .357 in the chamber.

From what it sounds like, this damage is not detectable such that you would see it without close investigation. Freedom Arms essentially forbids using improper cartridges in a gun. I'd have to say there's a good reason for that.

As a rule, the best lead remover I have seen for stubbornly leaded up cylinders and bores is a box of jacketed bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by pennfly:
Wonder what would happen if a guy shot a lower velocity round out of the correct case? , hmmmmm.......

I'd say it would be much like shooting a 38 out of a 357. Will work just fine but not foul the chamber.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
It looks like you already had the answer to your question. I do not want to own any standard revolvers; so I just clean any chamber fouling out of my magnums. Works for me.

Yea I got it in the second post.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
it's possible you could get crud at the case mouth location of the longer cases.

and if you really mistreat it, where you would pit the barrel, you MIGHT get some issues in the chamber

there's been MILLIONS, if not billions of 38sp fired in 357 AS TARGET LOADS


unless you grossly mistreat your guns and have horrible reloading practice, it would be hard to damage the firearm.

I guess if you go to the range and fire a handful of rounds and go home and clean it, the potential for damage would probably be negligible. I would go to a steel match and fore 300 to 500 or more rounds and go home and clean it and a 357 would not come close to cambering.

When gun powder ignites and a tremendous temperature, it melts lead and leaves it behind in the uncovered portion of a 357 chamber when firing 38 out of a 357. How hardly anybody here doesn't get that is beyond me but I'm not going to argue with it. If it works for you, maybe your chambers are so poorly fitted to the caliber that the leading that results from firing undersized cartridges from your gun doesn't matter; mind dies. If you're firing 357's out of a gun that has a buildup of lead from firing 38's it's probably a real high pressure situation and a dangerous gun to be shooting so I dont do it anymore.

quote:

Originally posted by speerchucker30x378:
As a rule, the best lead remover I have seen for stubbornly leaded up cylinders and bores is a box of jacketed bullets.

As I mentioned in another post, you think you're cleaning out built up lead and that's not likely true but what you are doing when you use such a dangerous method of smearing lead down your chamber into your barrel is risking blowing up a cylinder with excessive pressure. Just don't be doing that around me.

And I agree with your..."I'm so old that I can remember when the person behind the computer had an education and knew what they were talking about !"

Well, I've been gunsmithing professionally for 35 years (not as a hobby. Doing it as a soul source of income) and millions of people have been shooting lead and jacketed bullets back to back since the advent of jacketed bullets and I have never seen a single, documented case where this has been a problem. I have also done warranty for most of the major manufacturers and none of them have ever made light of this condition either. If there were any substance to it I think the ammunition manufacturers would post warnings of it in big red letters on the boxes of ammunition they sell to avoid lawsuits. I know many gunsmiths and pistol shooters who habitually run a half dozen jacketed rounds through their guns after a long lead session with no ill affects.

I have to admit that this rumor does crop up now and again in forums, ranges or in bars after too many corn squeezins and there is always some horror story tacked on to go along with it. But I think the reason for the horror stories is more probably linked to overloads or obstructions in the bore, than a light plating of lead in the bore.

I also often hear that this practice can drive the lead into the bore surface and make it impossible to clean. After cleaning many thousands of pistol barrels by first firing jacketed bullets and then following with conventional cleaning I have never encountered a problem of this nature. It's a foregone conclusion that they are a lot easier to clean out after first running jacketed bullets through them.

From personal experience and from what the manufacturers have indicated to me, it's a non-issue. But, if it scares you, don't do it.

quote:

Originally posted by speerchucker30x378:
Well, I've been gunsmithing professionally for 35 years (not as a hobby. Doing it as a soul source of income) and millions of people have been shooting lead and jacketed bullets back to back since the advent of jacketed bullets and I have never seen a single, documented case where this has been a problem. I have also done warranty for most of the major manufacturers and none of them have ever made light of this condition either. If there were any substance to it I think the ammunition manufacturers would post warnings of it in big red letters on the boxes of ammunition they sell to avoid lawsuits. I know many gunsmiths and pistol shooters who habitually run a half dozen jacketed rounds through their guns after a long lead session with no ill affects.

I have to admit that this rumor does crop up now and again in forums, ranges or in bars after too many corn squeezins and there is always some horror story tacked on to go along with it. But I think the reason for the horror stories is more probably linked to overloads or obstructions in the bore, than a light plating of lead in the bore.

I also often hear that this practice can drive the lead into the bore surface and make it impossible to clean. After cleaning many thousands of pistol barrels by first firing jacketed bullets and then following with conventional cleaning I have never encountered a problem of this nature. It's a foregone conclusion that they are a lot easier to clean out after first running jacketed bullets through them.

From personal experience and from what the manufacturers have indicated to me, it's a non-issue. But, if it scares you, don't do it.

Then why cant I chamber a 357 after firing several hundred 38's even after cleaning? I've tried the Lewis Lead Remover, even an old 45 brush and still cant chamber a 357. There's no way in Hell I'd ever consider "cleaning" a barrel that is leaded by firing a jacked bullet through it; I cant even begin to imagine how that could possibly "clean" a leaded barrel either. This is why I dont buy used guns, EVER, when you hear and read what people think is proper gun maintenance.What I found helps a lot is taking a 357 piece of brass, sharpen the open end with a deburring tool and jam it in which cuts the lead buildup. The next thing I might try if I allow this to happen again is an old 45 brush on a drill. Many of you are really lucky not to have this problem and I would still question why Freedom Arms is so insistent about not firing undersized rounds.

Pretty hard to say without seeing it. Hard brass that resists resizing or out of spec brass could be part of the problem. I would try some factory loaded 357s to eliminate that possibility.

Rough chambers could be causing the fouling to get a solid toe hold. I would be so inclined to clean up the chambers with a 357 magnum chambering reamer to see if there are any dimensional problems. After that the chambers could be burnished with felt bobs and matchless compound to shine them up in an effort to keep the fouling from holding on so tight.

What I can tell you even from 1000 miles away is that your problem is in no way NORMAL ! Not so much of an unsafe problem. But more of a major pain-in-the-ass, type problem. Most guys can shoot 375 and 38 back to back with little to no problem at all. Even without cleaning. But at 1000 miles away it can be difficult to tack down exactly what the problem is.

quote:

Originally posted by speerchucker30x378:
Pretty hard to say without seeing it. Hard brass that resists resizing or out of spec brass could be part of the problem. I would try some factory loaded 357s to eliminate that possibility.

Rough chambers could be causing the fouling to get a solid toe hold. I would be so inclined to clean up the chambers with a 357 magnum chambering reamer to see if there are any dimensional problems. After that the chambers could be burnished with felt bobs and matchless compound to shine them up in an effort to keep the fouling from holding on so tight.

What I can tell you even from 1000 miles away is that your problem is in no way NORMAL ! Not so much of an unsafe problem. But more of a major pain-in-the-ass, type problem. Most guys can shoot 375 and 38 back to back with little to no problem at all. Even without cleaning. But at 1000 miles away it can be difficult to tack down exactly what the problem is.

They are Ruger GP100's with lapped barrels and chambers. I think it's more likely that lead fouling and what the manufacturers of top quality guns is a bit more credible. Not to mention that lead fouling is what I have found to be the cause. THERE'S NO WAY I HELL that firing s short shell with a lead bullet isn't goring to produce lead fouling in a revolves chamber. With all due respect, I question your gjunsmithing knowledge. Anybody with a bit of common sense would know better about the lead buildup and that firing a jacketed bullet doesn't "clean" your barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by speerchucker30x378:
Pretty hard to say without seeing it. Hard brass that resists resizing or out of spec brass could be part of the problem. I would try some factory loaded 357s to eliminate that possibility.

Rough chambers could be causing the fouling to get a solid toe hold. I would be so inclined to clean up the chambers with a 357 magnum chambering reamer to see if there are any dimensional problems. After that the chambers could be burnished with felt bobs and matchless compound to shine them up in an effort to keep the fouling from holding on so tight.

What I can tell you even from 1000 miles away is that your problem is in no way NORMAL ! Not so much of an unsafe problem. But more of a major pain-in-the-ass, type problem. Most guys can shoot 375 and 38 back to back with little to no problem at all. Even without cleaning. But at 1000 miles away it can be difficult to tack down exactly what the problem is.

And let me add, I finish off ALL my loads with a Factory Crimp die.

I've been shooting got more than 50 years and reloading for about 45 years, so I know what I'm doing.

quote:

Originally posted by PeeShooter:
With all due respect, I question your gjunsmithing knowledge. Anybody with a bit of common sense would know better about the lead buildup and that firing a jacketed bullet doesn't "clean" your barrel.

Please refrain from creating the situation where opposing OPINIONS lead to insulting behavior.

OPINIONS are exactly there, ones gestalt of the facts that they have observed, with observation bias, preconceived bias, and agreement bias.

There's no reason to be insulting over such a matter.

I don't address the varying opinions of shooting jacketed bullets to delead a barrel - I expect there's more than one viewpoint on the matter.

quote:

Originally posted by PeeShooter:
.

And let me add, I finish off ALL my loads with a Factory Crimp die.

I've been shooting got more than 50 years and reloading for about 45 years, so I know what I'm doing.[/QUOTE]

Well then, you obviously know what the problem is, suggestions are a waste of time. Good luck with that sir.

quote:

Originally posted by speerchucker30x378:

quote:

Originally posted by PeeShooter:
.

And let me add, I finish off ALL my loads with a Factory Crimp die.

I've been shooting got more than 50 years and reloading for about 45 years, so I know what I'm doing.

Well then, you obviously know what the problem is, suggestions are a waste of time. Good luck with that sir.[/QUOTE]

We please consider I posted that my question was answered in the second post of this thread. Since then I keep hearing that what I have experienced has not happened or cant happen; this becomes quite frustrating as I'm not imagining this, it really happens.

What might help you understand is to load up 500 or 600 rounds of 38's with lead bullets; go fire all of them in one session then try and load a 357 and see if it goes in without obstruction.

If you have a suggestion as to how to fire 500 to 600 lead rounds without the extreme heat of the powder burning melting the lead, I'm all ears because when I go to fix the problem, I painstakingly dig out bits of lead with dental instruments.

With this post I am going to unsubscribe from this thread as I already have my answer and I'm sure you dont have the magic potion to stop lead from melting under extreme heat. We are getting nowhere but to fuel frustration and get me in trouble so till next time, See Ya.

quote:

What might help you understand is to load up 500 or 600 rounds of 38's with lead bullets; go fire all of them in one session then try and load a 357 and see if it goes in without obstruction

I have one 357 I fired no less the several thousands of rounds of 38s in it with out cleaning the chambers and have had any trouble

sounds like you have unique problem with you fire arm

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

What might help you understand is to load up 500 or 600 rounds of 38's with lead bullets; go fire all of them in one session then try and load a 357 and see if it goes in without obstruction

I have one 357 I fired no less the several thousands of rounds of 38s in it with out cleaning the chambers and have had any trouble

sounds like you have unique problem with you fire arm

WOW that's shockingly amazing to me. I will defiantly look into that then.

Let me clarify, after several thousand rounds of 38's through a 357, you're able to chamber a 357 with no resistance without cleaning first?

The only time I ever had build up from 38's in a 357 was when I was shooting soft hollow base wad cutters. Some of that might be from pushing them a little to fast.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
The only time I ever had build up from 38's in a 357 was when I was shooting soft hollow base wad cutters. Some of that might be from pushing them a little to fast.

My loads weren't hot; they were rather soft loads for rapid sight acquisition shooting steel targets competitively.

I'm going to check this out further, so far most of what I hear is it's a bad idea and that's from Freedom Arms and my bullet caster whom I have tremendous respect. Now a previous poster claims to have shot thousands of 38 lead loads, and I assume given the theme of this thread is firing 38's then 357's not cambering, that he had no problem cambering 357's; I frankly find that impossible to believe since for that to happen the high temperature of gun powder burning has to not melt the lead; but I'm going to call Ruger and Smith and Wesson and get their input and I'll report back.

For ages 22 RF were stamped S - L - LR
S&W recommended there M 19's not be fed a steady diet of 357 but to practice with 38's. Something police dept did country wide. Now we re-invent the wheel and say it's dangerous.
To hot a load in my case, applies to the bullet being used. A load can be mild, but with cylinder to bore fit to bullet type and lube, something may not be the match needed.

If you are so certain you know it all, why ask the question? Just for the record, I fired 10s of thousands of .38 Sp WC rounds through a .357 Python only cleaning the outside to prevent rust (because I knew I was going to shoot a few hundred more rounds in the next few days) and that gun, which I still have, chambers .357s with no problems.

AFA Freedom Arms goes, they make their guns tight on specs and PERHAPS that might contribute to hard chambering although I've fired a good many, but not thousands, of 45 Colt thru a FA .454 with no problems. I suspect they want to sell extra cylinders more than having a problem with the interchanging of rounds.

I will chime in with my opinions based on experience, print, and hearsay. The hear say comes from both shooters and gunsmiths. The print from articles, labels, books, etc.

The shooting of shorter cartridges in general is safe. Sure it is not the best thing for a chamber but a little care, cleaning, and common sense all but makes it a non-issue mechanically speaking.

The use of lighter charges in the longer case is supposed to be not as accurate as the same load in the short case. I am specifically referring to 38 Special vs 357 Magnum. Now I am not a good enough shot to notice the difference, but the reason WC projectiles are loaded deep into the case is to reduce the volume of the case for better ignition and burn. I have read this from numerous sources long, long before I ever had the internet or computer.

Wadcutters make a nice hole and are very accurate, but you can't use standard SpeedLoaders such as HKS with them. Perhaps there is a specific type speedloader for them, but I have never seen one. I use cast lead semi wadcutters for personal defense, plinking, and some hunting. I use jacketed hollow points or flat points in my backup gun when hunting bears. Lately I have been thinking of using cast lead semi-wadcutters (SWC) as my target loads simply because of the speed loader convenience.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
If you are so certain you know it all, why ask the question? Just for the record, I fired 10s of thousands of .38 Sp WC rounds through a .357 Python only cleaning the outside to prevent rust (because I knew I was going to shoot a few hundred more rounds in the next few days) and that gun, which I still have, chambers .357s with no problems.

AFA Freedom Arms goes, they make their guns tight on specs and PERHAPS that might contribute to hard chambering although I've fired a good many, but not thousands, of 45 Colt thru a FA .454 with no problems. I suspect they want to sell extra cylinders more than having a problem with the interchanging of rounds.

I never said I know it all. I asked a question that was answered in the second post. I bought the question here because in the past I have found this forum to be mature responsible levelheaded people who aren't combative; that seems to have changed.

I asked the question her because if came up on a Facebook page; I know shooting short loads is not ideal and posted it there and nobody reacted like on this forum. I thought I'd get a second opinion and am sorry I did so here (at least after the second post when the war started). Please excuse me if I dont think your being the least bit honest having fired tens of thousands of lead 38's through a 357 and could chamber a 357 with no resistance; that's virtually impossible just from the powder residue coating the uncovered part of the cylinder.

Why is it that so many trolls come out in discussions like this saying the most ridiculous things to prove a logical solution to a question wrong. This is what causes fights when ridiculous posts of tens of thousands of rounds with not even powder residue. If that's true then there's never a reason to clean any gun for the life of a gun. SO how many did you shoot, 20K, 34K, maybe 100K rounds. Think up another story.

I'll be calling the gun manufacturers today and post their thought on the subject.

quote:

Originally posted by airgun1:
I will chime in with my opinions based on experience, print, and hearsay. The hear say comes from both shooters and gunsmiths. The print from articles, labels, books, etc.

The shooting of shorter cartridges in general is safe. Sure it is not the best thing for a chamber but a little care, cleaning, and common sense all but makes it a non-issue mechanically speaking.

The use of lighter charges in the longer case is supposed to be not as accurate as the same load in the short case. I am specifically referring to 38 Special vs 357 Magnum. Now I am not a good enough shot to notice the difference, but the reason WC projectiles are loaded deep into the case is to reduce the volume of the case for better ignition and burn. I have read this from numerous sources long, long before I ever had the internet or computer.

Wadcutters make a nice hole and are very accurate, but you can't use standard SpeedLoaders such as HKS with them. Perhaps there is a specific type speedloader for them, but I have never seen one. I use cast lead semi wadcutters for personal defense, plinking, and some hunting. I use jacketed hollow points or flat points in my backup gun when hunting bears. Lately I have been thinking of using cast lead semi-wadcutters (SWC) as my target loads simply because of the speed loader convenience.

Having been a competitive steel shooter with revolvers, there is no speed loader for wad cutters. A speed loader uses the profile of a tapered bullet to guide the cartridges into the cylinder. Wad cutters are nothing but flat and can't possibly guide cartridges into a cylinder.

Peeshooter,
You are either taking things out of context, or not reading things through.
PDshooter said he has fired 10 of thousands of rounds of 38's with no pitting.
In another he said he has several thousand 38'sthrough one 357. He made NO refrence about then chambering a 357 before cleaning, shooting a jacketed bullet or anything else.
PD does not need me to stick up for him, but I, and everyone else on here knows he's not, or ever has been a troll.
You have come across as a bit of an ass though from not reading carefully and dismissing everyone else's results.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
Peeshooter,
You are either taking things out of context, or not reading things through.
PDshooter said he has fired 10 of thousands of rounds of 38's with no pitting.
In another he said he has several thousand 38'sthrough one 357. He made NO refrence about then chambering a 357 before cleaning, shooting a jacketed bullet or anything else.
PD does not need me to stick up for him, but I, and everyone else on here knows he's not, or ever has been a troll.
You have come across as a bit of an ass though from not reading carefully and dismissing everyone else's results.

No it is you that is misreading it, it says and I cut and paste quote "I have one 357 I fired no less the several thousands of rounds of 38s in it with out cleaning the chambers and have had any trouble" nothing about pitting...and I suggest you watch your language, you have no right to call me vulgar names.

OK I just got off the phone with Smith & Wesson; their technical professionals said as we all know, there is no problem with firing 38's but after shooting a number of them, you must clean the gun our to remove the lead and powder residue out of it. I asked about using a jacketed round to clean out the lead and they said you can do that and it will open up the bullets path but can result in dangerous pressures depending on how much build up there is. I asked if the lead from 38's is not removed, will it have an adverse effect on the gun; he responded yes if you aren't keeping the gun clean and free of the lead buildup.

Ruger technical people said essentially the same thing but were more aliment about cleaning the gun after firing several hundred rounds without proper cleaning and deleading as leaving this residue in the gun can cause damage over time. They also strongly against trying to clean the bullet path with a jacketed 357 as it can result in dangerous pressure levels with the lead obstruction.

Both manufacturers support my understanding and the content of the second post in this thread. I am now assured that what I understood to be true is wise to adhere to to protect the gun from damage and [possible personal injury.

This is my last post, I'm tired of hearing dishonest assertions of tens of thousands of rounds then no problem firing 357's and dangerous information. Apparently is is far more important to try and make a fool out of me for being right then learning some valuable information to the point of referring to me with vulgar words. Lots of luck and I hope none of you are ever standing on my firing line. Hopefully the moderator will scold the vulgar troublemakers now rather then me.

quote:

This is my last post,

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

Wow, another ass that is firmly entrenched in "my opinion and experience is the only one that counts".

I shot competitively with revolvers for a good number of years. Depending on the weekend, between 500 and 1000 rounds. Maybe 10-20 thousand rounds a year. My experience is like p dog shooter. Never had an issue.

I'm sorry it doesn't sync with PissShooter's world (Pea Shooter would be correct, except in the Urban Dictionary where it PeeShooter means dick), but that is my experience. I have also used a jacketed bullet to clean lead from a cylinder, but more so from my semi-auto IPSC gun.

quote:

Originally posted by larrys:
Wow, another ass that is firmly entrenched in "my opinion and experience is the only one that counts".

I shot competitively with revolvers for a good number of years. Depending on the weekend, between 500 and 1000 rounds. Maybe 10-20 thousand rounds a year. My experience is like p dog shooter. Never had an issue.

I'm sorry it doesn't sync with PissShooter's world (Pea Shooter would be correct, except in the Urban Dictionary where it PeeShooter means dick), but that is my experience. I have also used a jacketed bullet to clean lead from a cylinder, but more so from my semi-auto IPSC gun.

For some reason this site wont stop sending me announcements but I cant help but reply to this one.

I'd suggest that you call Smith & Wesson and Ruger Sturm and tell THEM how stupid THEY are. Maybe they'll hire you to teach their experts how guns wrok.

This site has obviously changed since I last was active. What a bunch of arrogant assholes there are here now.

Hey I hear if you get a bullet stuck in your barrel, the best way to remove it is to fire another shot, Sort of like clearing out a blocked forcing cone and cylinder with another bullet.

I have no respect for this forum anymore. Go ahead and tell me "dont let the door hit you in the ass" because what I'm doing is leaving all the asses who thing they're smarter that S&W & Ruger. Narcissistic, arrogant assholes.