With the demise of Winchester, and the question of the survivability of Remington, will we be left with Rugers and Savages to turn into custom big bore rifles in the future? Will we have to use the CZ action or one of the custom offerings from Dakota, Williams, Montana, Granite Mountain, etc.??
Where will we go from here?

I wouldn’t get all prepared to toss the last shovel full of dirt onto the coffins of either Winchester or Remington just yet!

I wouldn't worry either. There will be plenty M70's to work with for the rest or your life.

Terry

Apparently the CD actions are going away as well. Millsurp Mausers still work for me!

All I see is a day coming (soon) when folks will say...."Wow...guns were cheap back in 2005!"

Right now I have two Mausers that are totally the equivalent to any M-70 I've ever owned. One is a J C Higgens (FN) in .30-06 that I have installed a swing safety (thanks JBabcock) and the other is a VZ-24 in 6.5X55 again with a Dakota 3-pos safety. Both are extremely reliable and accurate shooters. I can live easily with fine used rifles like these.

I think someone will pick up the Model 70 production...way too much value in the name for that not to happen...what remains to be seen is the quality of product and pricing..

Vapodog, it will be interesting to see if prices of Model 70s (pre and post) hold up over the next year...It seems Pre-64 in good conidition are hard to locate for less than $1,000 and thats just a standard gun and chambering in useable condition and most likely modified in some way...got to hit the gun shows to see if there is better pricing...

I followed an Auction on AA where just pre 64 Model 70 actions are going for $570 or so..standard and short actions...hard to think prices will be going down from here!

I checked an old Gun Digests and in 1958 a standard Winchester 70 retailed for $129.95. In the 2006 Gun Digest they list retail at $742.00.

Using a cost of living calculator on the internet I found that the 1958 retail price adjusted to 2006 dollars would equal $891.60...so they are actually selling for almost $150.00 less than they were almost 50 years ago.

I doubt that the Winchester line will be picked up soon. That said, the feeding frenzie isn't over yet. Two of the custom gun makers I use are really worried about the action avilibility in the future. Most were buying bottom of the line Winchester rifles to convert to custom rifles and were trying to hold the line on price when the rifles were bought at around $500.00. Now at almost double that they are looking at some options.

Good luck finding one for $740 or so...that is in reasonably good condition...

According to what I have "heard" there is some prohibition, established by Union contract, excluding production of some guns outside of the New Haven Plant...but Olin still ownes the "name" and that contract supposedly expriers in 2007...we shall see...so for some period of time it is SOL on new guns..

lb404, what options are smiths looking at as a replacement for pre 64 actions? classics or just increasing the prices

I am pretty sure you are right about the original contract calling for the production of the Winchester trademark to remain a USA only product. That is why Browning had not moved production to Europe or Asia. I usually take about 75 pre-64 modle 70's to the Wanamarcher gun show in Tulsa for the spring and fall gun shows. I may not take any to sell this spring. I will have all the rifles there to "show". That usually pisses people off when they're not for sale.

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
I am pretty sure you are right about the original contract calling for the production of the Winchester trademark to remain a USA only product. That is why Browning had not moved production to Europe or Asia. ...

browning is made in japan...

the winchester production license (remember, olin owns winchester... FN owns the right to produce) is probably a standard production rights contract... basically states either "you pay $X to make them, per year" or "you pay $Y per manufactured item, minimum of Z)...

and if FN aint making them, they are on the hook for the money, but no revenue to offset the license fee...

but, dang it (want to swear here, but won't) dakota, MRC, and 10 other people make the model 70 action (in clones)... and the MRC aint that much money, for what COULD have better action FEATURES to some people (375 length, stainless, lefty, not my choice, but one that can't be had from winchester) .. btw, I would strong suggest a customer or a friend to build off the MRC long before the pre-64.. the pre-64 is what it is, and the MRC aint ever going up in value

further, the mauser 98 has been in constant production SOMEWHERE for over 100 years. Zavastia again won't be taking selling thousands through CD to selling 100s through remington, as their COGS would climb, resulting in the workers demanding higher wages.


So, what I am stating (it's 3 am and I can't sleep) is that ya'll just need to take a deep breath, step away from the mental track of being a doomy, and realise that in 6 to 12 months, it will sort itself out, and we'll know the direction FN is going, and who the second supplier of zavasta actions will be...

remember, dang it, the "mark X" has been brought in by AT LEAST 4 (now 5) different companies in the last 30 years...

and they are still being made, today, and still affordable.

jeffe

the Browning is made in Japan, Not the Winchester Model 70, or the 94. I am pretty sure they must be stamped Made in USA. All in all Winchester was working out the kinks of the model 70 action and finally seemed to be addressing all of the safety issues we like to argue about. The gas diverting flange of the safety on latest models was the final thrust. If production and quality issues were to be addressed instead of inventing other cartridges to build rifles for, the bottom line would be postitive for them. In typical fashion, unions have been the undooing of so many of our industries its a wonder we produce anything at all for ourselves.

lb404,

you might name me one company that unions have undone. Every company that loudly trumpeted "the unions are bankrupting us, we have to move production offshore..." and actually moved has kept their "Union Made in America" pricing structure intact. The truth is that the EPA and OSHA have mandated the moves, that and pure corporate greed. The problem with US made M70's etc, is that the plant was older than dirt, ditto the machinery, and as a rental nametag NObody wanted to put any $$$ into modernization of equipment, staff, or facility. It is just sooooooooooo much easier to play the Union Card, sort-of like playing the Race Card when you have no legitimate response to the bare naked truth when it is presented to you. The japanese prove everyday, that American made vehicles are superior quality to the mexican-made stuff we buy. I own a 2004.5 Dodge Cummins 4X4 P/U. By law, the build sheet identifies it as a foreign vehicle.

I wait for the final corporate domino to fall and plunge this country into the deepest depression the world has ever seen. At some point enough american jobs will have been shipped to countries where the workers are "OK" with $2 hr wages and no bennies, to tilt the imbalance of trade into a worldwide, cataclysmic depression. I read on Forbes Magazine website this morning that the Fed Gov has increased the national debt authorization by another 871-Billion dollars!!!!!!!!! We owe nearly 35 Trillion dollars to the world, and nobody seems worried. If we taped $1000 bills end to end, that would run seventeen laps to the moon and back!!

So, me, I paid my house off and bought two AR-15's.

God Bless us, everyone...

Rich

Winchester had to sign an agreement with the union that after they closed the New Haven plant, they wouldn't build the models that were built in New Haven at another plant for 2 years. So once the two years has past I think you'll see them built again in Europe , maybe the US or Japan... and they'll be building a better rifle than what's been coming out of the New Haven plant. Unions and pension pressure is what caused that plant to close.

Union Bashers out there please remember a few facts: Like your 8 hour day, and your two day weekend, thank some union man of the 20th century. Like your paid medical and dental insurance, paid holidays and vacations, supplemental unemployment insurance, social security, and pensions, same person to thank.

We need to remember the most powerful Union in the United States is the AMA. Health care costs are rising due to malpractice awards. Doctors Are The Third Leading Cause of Death in the US, Causing 250,000 Deaths Every Year. http://www.mercola.com/2000/jul/30/doctors_death.htm

If you are a fan of MRC take a view of their web site. They are back ordered on pretty much all actions till end of July.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by lb404:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by imhance:
Union Bashers out there please remember a few facts: Like your 8 hour day, and your two day weekend, thank some union man of the 20th century. Like your paid medical and dental insurance, paid holidays and vacations, supplemental unemployment insurance, social security, and pensions, same person to thank.

I still have a job, The folks at the Chevy plant and Winchester don't. My wife is an RN with 25 years experiences and is worth 20 of any union trash that cleans a bathroom for his existance.

"if you wonder where your job just went, just ask your uninon president". Sing this using the old pepsident song music!!!!

We need to remember the most powerful Union in the United States is the AMA. Health care costs are rising due to malpractice awards. Doctors Are The Third Leading Cause of Death in the US, Causing 250,000 Deaths Every Year. [URL=http://www.mercola.com/2000/jul/30/doctors_

death.htm]http://www.mercola.com/2000/jul/30/doctors_death.htm

Your facts need a little perspective. Your union produced items never are responsible for deaths? Folks like to lump stuff together for convenience. Do a google and see how many "contacts" physicians have each year and what percentage of that number the quoted deaths represent. Fortunately, all of us can choose whom we see for our health issues. We can not choose which drunk/druggie/misfit is building our car.I have practiced for over 30 years and I have seen some hind sight calls, however, I doubt that any physicians go to work with the idea that they are going to do the worst they can today and intintionally kill someone.

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
If you are a fan of MRC take a view of their web site. They are back ordered on pretty much all actions till end of July.

Ouch, you are right. Wonder if that means they have been selling actions beyond all expectations, or whether production has slowed down??

According to their website, selected models should still be available - although some only in limited quantities (whatever that means?):

MRC Long Action

MRC Short Action

- mike

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
lb404,

you might name me one company that unions have undone. Every company that loudly trumpeted "the unions are bankrupting us, we have to move production offshore..." and actually moved has kept their "Union Made in America" pricing structure intact. The truth is that the EPA and OSHA have mandated the moves, that and pure corporate greed. The problem with US made M70's etc, is that the plant was older than dirt, ditto the machinery, and as a rental nametag NObody wanted to put any $$$ into modernization of equipment, staff, or facility. It is just sooooooooooo much easier to play the Union Card, sort-of like playing the Race Card when you have no legitimate response to the bare naked truth when it is presented to you. The japanese prove everyday, that American made vehicles are superior quality to the mexican-made stuff we buy. I own a 2004.5 Dodge Cummins 4X4 P/U. By law, the build sheet identifies it as a foreign vehicle.

I wait for the final corporate domino to fall and plunge this country into the deepest depression the world has ever seen. At some point enough american jobs will have been shipped to countries where the workers are "OK" with $2 hr wages and no bennies, to tilt the imbalance of trade into a worldwide, cataclysmic depression. I read on Forbes Magazine website this morning that the Fed Gov has increased the national debt authorization by another 871-Billion dollars!!!!!!!!! We owe nearly 35 Trillion dollars to the world, and nobody seems worried. If we taped $1000 bills end to end, that would run seventeen laps to the moon and back!!

So, me, I paid my house off and bought two AR-15's.

God Bless us, everyone...

Rich

The GM plant in OKC. The union deal leaves the employees with 1,5 years of monthly income and there is no work to do. How does a company suffer that kind of non productive loss and keep jobs in the USA. How much is a union worker that makes cars worth an hour? I say not as much as a staff nurse. Why is there no structure of pay, janitors have to make less than line folks. They do have a sweet deal, but when that sweet deal turns sour and you have no job, you just might ask yourself if it was really worth it. My profession doesn't have or need a union. If we were unionized, no one could ever afford health care. It isn't the doctors making the money. They just gave our hospital system CEO an annual bonus of 35 MIl. How did he earn it? He didn't, all of those that work the hospital earned it, he just got credit for it. If physicians had the same deal as auto workers then everyone would be impacted. The bill would be so High no one could afford it.

quote:

If you are a fan of MRC take a view of their web site. They are back ordered on pretty much all actions till end of July.

I recently heard from a gunsmith who has used these actions from their beginning that they are about 1000 actions behind right now. It isn't helping the chances of the PH action appearing soon I am sure.

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
lb404,

you might name me one company that unions have undone. Every company that loudly trumpeted "the unions are bankrupting us, we have to move production offshore..." and actually moved has kept their "Union Made in America" pricing structure intact. The truth is that the EPA and OSHA have mandated the moves, that and pure corporate greed. The problem with US made M70's etc, is that the plant was older than dirt, ditto the machinery, and as a rental nametag NObody wanted to put any $$$ into modernization of equipment, staff, or facility. It is just sooooooooooo much easier to play the Union Card, sort-of like playing the Race Card when you have no legitimate response to the bare naked truth when it is presented to you. The japanese prove everyday, that American made vehicles are superior quality to the mexican-made stuff we buy. I own a 2004.5 Dodge Cummins 4X4 P/U. By law, the build sheet identifies it as a foreign vehicle.

I wait for the final corporate domino to fall and plunge this country into the deepest depression the world has ever seen. At some point enough american jobs will have been shipped to countries where the workers are "OK" with $2 hr wages and no bennies, to tilt the imbalance of trade into a worldwide, cataclysmic depression. I read on Forbes Magazine website this morning that the Fed Gov has increased the national debt authorization by another 871-Billion dollars!!!!!!!!! We owe nearly 35 Trillion dollars to the world, and nobody seems worried. If we taped $1000 bills end to end, that would run seventeen laps to the moon and back!!

So, me, I paid my house off and bought two AR-15's.

God Bless us, everyone...

Rich

The GM plant in OKC. The union deal leaves the employees with 1,5 years of monthly income and there is no work to do. How does a company suffer that kind of non productive loss and keep jobs in the USA. How much is a union worker that makes cars worth an hour? I say not as much as a staff nurse. Why is there no structure of pay, janitors have to make less than line folks. They do have a sweet deal, but when that sweet deal turns sour and you have no job, you just might ask yourself if it was really worth it. My profession doesn't have or need a union. If we were unionized, no one could ever afford health care. It isn't the doctors making the money. They just gave our hospital system CEO an annual bonus of 35 MIl. How did he earn it? He didn't, all of those that work the hospital earned it, he just got credit for it. If physicians had the same deal as auto workers then everyone would be impacted. The bill would be so High no one could afford it.

I get a kick out of the anti union garbage.

I hunt with a doctor and work with a guy who is married to a surgeon. I live in a town with a population of 18000.

The doctor I hunt with is employed by the county hospital. He takes a 200 grand pay cut to live where he lives,the hospital covers his families medical needs and his,as part of his contract. He makes over 500,000 dollars a year.Plus doesn't have to provide liablility insurance for himself.

The coworker I mentioned earlier who's wife is a surgeon. She works for the same hospital,she is covered under the hospitals malpractice insurance,her family is covered by the hospital for medical and she grossed 865,000 dollars last year. My wife works in the same hospital as an RN and pulls down 65,000 a year plus benefits. Ya the medical field has it real rough.

With those wages and coverage,who needs a union?

As to the GM plant. How much is a CEO worth that does nothing but plan lunch. The reason that the union worker makes what he makes,is because the company can afford to pay him that much. They signed the contract. They agreed to pay out 1.5 years of wages,because they know full well that they'll more then make up for those wages when they move everything to mexico. The price of that vehicle isn't going to decrease either. The profit margain to GM will be increase.

The reason jobs are leaving the U.S,is because our goverment has allowed them to.


Field and Stream just had an article on a guy who spent his life working for winchester. He started everyday at 7am and quit at 3pm,with only a 15 minute break for lunch. Yep it sounds like the union was really hosing winchester.

A non union laborer is entitled to two 15 minute breaks a day,plus a half hour lunch.Evidently winchester didn't even do that.

I think MRC has been steadily increasing there business as they are the only non custom company making left hand stainless Winchester 70 style actions. For us lefties it saves us quite a few dollars in rebarreling costs to get exactly what we want. Add the fact their one piece bottom metal is a step up in quality over a Win 70 and the prices they charge are very reasonable.

I do not post here a lot but after reading this dicussion I felt compelled to. lb404 you are absolutely 100% dead on correct!!! And anyone who thinks a wind shield wiper installer deserves the pay they recieve needs to reconsider! And does anyone think for a second that these high wages are not passed on to the consumer? Of course they are, if you don't believe that then go price a new truck. The only way auto makers can successfully sell these expensive trucks is to offer longer and longer periods to finance them. Business is highly competitive, so how can anyone fault large corporations for sending jobs out of the country when they are faced with these rediculus labor charges? Further more the fact that the now unemployed OKC GM plant workers will be paid for doing NOTHING for the next year and a half is totally outrageous and ethically immoral. They should be ashamed. How many of these people do you believe will even begin looking for a job until their year and a half free ride is almost up? Granted unions have their place and have done a lot of good over the years and continue to do so. I acknowledge this, but I also acknowledge the simple fact that they have also done a lot of damage as well. Plus the blind loyalty of union members baffles me. They vote Democratic no matter what. Heck they even voted for Clinton to be reelected after he passed NAFTA, which probably did more to ship jobs out of the US than any other single event.

"If you wonder where your good job went, just ask the union president"! The tune is the pepsodent tune. Corporate America is taking jobs to folks that want to work, actually work on the job, and are paid a reasonable wage where they live. I couldn't survive on it but I don't live in China. As far as Doctors wages, You forgot he had to work for 10-15 years for free or less than minimum wage before he got into the money. All that money can betaken by some createn that can't figgure out that the cigaretts he smoked 50 times a day actually killed him not the complications of the surgery that tried to save him. So when all the union shops are dead we might see the return of working class jobs in the USA.Further, when we stop paying jerks to not work (welfare and SS disability) and save that money for those that have earned it, then we will get back a willing working class that earns a respectable wage for the work actually done. It is real simple when you aren't worth anything, you are bound to be replaced by something that is.

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
"If you wonder where your good job went, just ask the union president"! The tune is the pepsodent tune. Corporate America is taking jobs to folks that want to work, actually work on the job, and are paid a reasonable wage where they live. I couldn't survive on it but I don't live in China. As far as Doctors wages, You forgot he had to work for 10-15 years for free or less than minimum wage before he got into the money. All that money can betaken by some createn that can't figgure out that the cigaretts he smoked 50 times a day actually killed him not the complications of the surgery that tried to save him. So when all the union shops are dead we might see the return of working class jobs in the USA.Further, when we stop paying jerks to not work (welfare and SS disability) and save that money for those that have earned it, then we will get back a willing working class that earns a respectable wage for the work actually done. It is real simple when you aren't worth anything, you are bound to be replaced by something that is.

Where have all the unions gone, long time passing.
Where have all the unions gone, long time ago'
Where have all the unions gone gone to grave yards every one
When will they ever learn when will they ever lear??? Name that tune!!!!!

And how about the teachers' unions? If they are so concerned with the quality of the work place for their members then why do they spend so much and recources dumbing down our childrens' education by sticking their nose where it doesn't belong? Namely curriculm and social programs.

There was a time in America where Unions provided a vital service to the American worker. They were instrumental in creating better working conditions a reasonable work week and a better wage for workers. That time is past.
Today Unions are responsible for paying unskilled laborers a wage incomensurate with their skills. They have become bastions of corruption and promoters of a one sided political philosophy. Every time I've seen Unions on strike it has been followed by a company going out of business and those workers losing thier jobs completely. Maybe my veiw is narrow and I've not seen some of the good they are currently doing, all I've personally experienced was negative. They took money from my wifes pay and donated to political causes that we disagree with. When she needed assistance with an unreasonable boss they wouldn't help.
I can readily see how a Janitor who makes $60 an hour for sweeping floors might think Unions are great. But the rest of us are having to pay the extra $1500 in labor costs per car that the UAW has added.
Maybe there are some positive's that I'm missing but I sure the heck haven't missed a lot of negatives about Unions..............DJ

I talked to a lady that runs the office at Olin, that handles the Leasing rights to the Winchester name, and she said,"that when the plant closes in New Haven, they will loose the rights to use the Winchester name.

Unions haven't run any company out of america. Corporate greed has run these companies out of country.

The goverment has promoted it by allowing free trade.

When you have 4 or 5 executive officers of a company making salaries of millions of dollar per officer. You don't have a union problem,you have a management problem.

Now you'll pay the same price for a vehicle made out of country.And it will continue to go up every year.

You'll still have unions,the differance is the companies that are still unionized will be companies that can't leave the country. Like mines,railroads,construction ,variuos transportation services and police and fire.

Greed will never die out among company owners,so the need for unions will never end.

I've been through three strikes and have yet to see a company go out of business. In fact the reasons for the strikes,was the company was showing record earnings every quarter,yet trying to screw us out of wages and benefits.

The best union negotiations to witness,are fire fighters unions. In these cases you're dealing with a city our county,so their money is all public. Yet the city or county will still try to lie about how much money they have. The union will produce the cities or counties available funds and the city or county will back down and move for arbitration. Knowing full well that they've been lieing their asses off and trying to screw their own employees.

Sledder, two wrongs don't make a right. Unionization is pricefixing, a federal crime for other people. I have yet to see a union job that was worth the price it cost. The money a company makes is not germain to the issue. Companies are made to be profitable NOT to give peopel the best living possible. In Oklahoma really important jobs in medicine pay from 8.00 per hour to about 25.oo per hour. The GM plant is closing our hospital isn't. But then we don't pay the janitor the same wage as an ICU nurse, and we should't. Like DJpaintless said there might have been a need a hundred years ago but so were buggy whips.

dj,

I agree with your "narrow view"...it says much. In the past Unions served a useful purpose but like many institutions lost sight of meaning and true purpose....but it is a bit unfair to blame Unions, in general, for this or that plant closing.

Management negotiated those contracts, for good and bad...incremental progression over many years without someone saying that's enough! Union's pushing until that have passed the point of being competitive, that's poor understanding and leadership for sure.

I have seen many good companies driven in the ground by poor management and weak ownership but that just part of the game.....

For good or bad trade policies effect and change entire industries. This must be added into the mix as well.

Comparing labor wages, US to China, etc, is but one small part...one should consider the overhead related to gov't (local, state, federal) as well as what one society values vs another..it all costs something...wage rates are a small part, not the real story...

Today US producers are competiting against China, Inc and others...subsidizing entire industries and purchasing assets to support growth, etc...they are able to access the US market freely and are subsidized by US corporations and taxpayers......possibly one day this will change.

Hard for a company or industry, built on the ideals of "fair and free" trade, to compete with a country (a communist country!) that can manipulate the underpinnings of a market.

just my 2 cents...

No Ib404,your hospital isn't closing,because they haven't figured out a way to take it out of country yet.The medical fields are one of the biggest scams in america. They get the prices they get,because they have a captive audience.

If GM didn't have the option of going out of country,they'd still be building cars right here in america.

Sure corporations need to make a profit. They also have an obligation,wether they like it or not,to treat their employees fairly and pay a liveable wage. Which without the unions or threat of unions,they won't pay.

Everyone likes to bring up the janitor garbage. The fact is,I've never seen a janitor employed by a union yet. And I've got 20 plus years with a union.

You will see a crash in our economy,at the rate jobs are being sent out of country.

Keeping jobs in the country,isn't a new concept. Every president except for Bush sr.clinton and now bush jr.,saw the importance of jobs in america.

Its really not hard to see why this administration supports sending jobs out of country. Nearly every high ranking member of this administration,comes from corporate america.

The only reason we're competing against china inc.,is because we've got a goverment that doesn't care about the well being of its people. You can trace 99% of the problems we're facing right now,back to 1994.And NAFTA

Unions are also as strong as the people within them. As weak as americans are today,you can't get but a handfull of people to fight for what is right.

This is all pretty funny coming from a bunch of people who are always looking for the best deals when they buy something.

Consumers are allowed to “shop-around†but when a company does that it’s somehow “un-American?â€

I belong to two unions (Screen Actors Guild and Directors Guild) because I have to in order to work in the motion picture business. I served for eight years on the national board of directors of the Screen Actors Guild and participated in several contract negotiations with the studios/networks. I will be very honest, there were many times that I felt as though the union was being completely unreasonable in the demands we were making on our employers...and I completely understood why allot of companies chose to shoot their films in other countries where the exchange rate and the labor costs were more favorable.

Unions, in general, are there to force employers to hire people they don’t need and to pay people more than the job is worth in relation to the work performed. I work in a somewhat unique industry because the actual cost of making the product (movie or TV show) has absolutely no relationship to the cost of the product to the consumer.

Oh well, I guess that every forum needs it's token Socialist/Communist to provide an anti-competitive, anti-capitalism view. Sledder can be ours....................DJ

Sledder,

First you said "to treat their employees fairly and pay a liveable wage" so I ask you what is a fair wage for someone who slides windshield wipers on all day?

You are definately pro-union, yet you recognize the fact that Clinton is responsible for the current state of affairs because as you said "you can trace 99% of the problems we're facing right now,back to 1994 and NAFTA." So my second question is this; how does it make you feel knowing that part of your union dues were donated to this President?

BTW...Right on djpaintless (Oh well, I guess that every forum needs it's token Socialist/Communist to provide an anti-competitive, anti-capitalism view. Sledder can be ours....................DJ)

It’s quite an ironic dichotomy that everyone seems to want High Wages...and Low Prices????????

Every year the Screen Actors Guild had to rent a large convention style room to hold their annual membership meeting. Problem is, there are only about two union hotels in the entire LA area that have rooms large enough to use. The Universal Sheraton was what we normally used and the price (paid for by the members dues) was over four times what the non-union hotels charged for the same sized facilities, and those prices went up considerably every year.

Check your union pension fund sometime and see where your money is invested before you start wanting to eat into the profits of these corporations too much.

Wether unions pay into democratic campaigns or republican campaigns,is irrelavant. Both parties are equally fucking worthless. Neither one cares about the citizens of america.

As for fair wages. I'd say 36,000 starting out is a liveable wage,with an increase every year,for the windshield wiper installer.

If you wanted to stay in the same ratio of pay to output/work,as that of upper management. Hell then you'd be paying the windshield wiper installer around 100,000 a year.

“ Both parties are equally fucking worthless.“

I believe that’s a Latin term meaning “totally!â€

excuse the interruption...sorry....I thought this was the gunsmithing forum.