I have three Model 70's and a CZ 550 Magnum for which I would like to replace the slotted receiver screws with hex head screws. Anybody have any advice on where to find these? Any quality issues of note?

Hi Wink,
Brownells carries Model 70 hex head screws in both stainless and chrome moly steel. I have used hex head screws in several rifles for many years. They work fine.

If you contact Roger Farrell, Lon Paul or Ed LaPour by e-mail or postal mail, they will know if the CZ screws are available anywhere.

If Brownells wants too much for shipping, send me a PM. I can mail some to you.

lawndart

I would like to hear the forums thoughts on using the hex head screws to replace the slotted screws. I have been thinking about doing this also on a couple of using rifles, they really do look nicer. Then, I thought what would happen in the field if you had to remove the stock to do, whatever?? There is usually have a Leatherman available or some make shift screwdriver around but not always a hex key. Ideas?
Thanks,
BJB

When the sockets strip out (think scope rings) you will wish you had left them alone. Hex (Allen), and Philip head screws were developed to allow the use of air wrenches in auto factories period. As to looks many people today like plastic guns and painted metal, so why not?.
Good luck!

If you are stripping a socket head out, you are exceeding its design limits, which lots of ham handed folks do. The same folks burr up slotted screws by using the wrong screwdriver bit. There is nothing wrong with socket head screws except many traditionalists don't care for them. One thing about the hex is, it has no index point. Slotted screws should index fore and aft, but when did you see a factory rifle with properly indexed guard screws? Excluding customs, of course. Allen wrenches are cheap and plentiful, throw some in your spares, if you rifle has a grip cap that screws on, you can drill and inlet to put one under the cap for emergencies. One other advantage of the Allen style, it is easier to use with an inch-pound torque wrench for repeatability after dissassembly. I use them both, but slotted is more classic, allen or hex, more usefull. Also, if you should strip out a hex, get the closest torx bit, lightly drive it in, and turn out the ruined hex. Just my .02.

quote:

Originally posted by Wink:
I have three Model 70's and a CZ 550 Magnum for which I would like to replace the slotted receiver screws with hex head screws. Anybody have any advice on where to find these? Any quality issues of note?

You have an email.

quote:

Originally posted by hawkins:
When the sockets strip out (think scope rings) you will wish you had left them alone. Hex (Allen), and Philip head screws were developed to allow the use of air wrenches in auto factories period. As to looks many people today like plastic guns and painted metal, so why not?.
Good luck!

They will work just fine....Socket Head Cap Screws are intended for flush or below flush applications and where not invented for auto factory work they were invented for the tool and die industry by Allen (a company not the name of the bolts) so mold and die plates could have hundreds of bolts in them compleatly flush. These will work just fine in any firearm useing hand tools.

Wink,

Jim Baiar of Halfmoon Rifle Shop makes hex head guard screws for M70s and Mausers FN & M98.

The very outdated catalog I am looking at(1998) has them priced at $10.00 for Mauser(2 screws) and $15.00 for M70(3 screws). Also includes 5/32 hex head socket wrench.

If I am not mistaken D'Arcy Echols uses them for his Legend rifles.

Half Moon Rifle Shop
490 Halfmoon Rd.
Columbia Falls, MT 59912
(406) 892-4409


Regards,
Dave

I was dissapointed to see slot screws on my mod 70.I choose to buy a socket driver slot bit to work with my torque ratchet,instead of using hex or allan screws.I was worried that the ones for sale at Brownells may not be the exact length.Does anyone know if all model 70's have the same size guard screws?

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I was dissapointed to see slot screws on my mod 70.I choose to buy a socket driver slot bit to work with my torque ratchet,instead of using hex or allan screws.I was worried that the ones for sale at Brownells may not be the exact length.Does anyone know if all model 70's have the same size guard screws?

Just my opinion, but I would be real careful torquing slotted head action screws too much. The slots are not really designed to withstand much torque beyond that which you can apply with a normal screw driver. Even a well fitted bit is going to try to wedge itself out of the slot once the force reaches a certain amount, and the bits are normally much harder than the screw head. With an allen, hex or torx head screw the force is distributed much more evenly around the head.

Rick 0311:

quote:

Even a well fitted bit is going to try to wedge itself out of the slot once the force reaches a certain amount...

Rick, does that apply to parallel-ground bits, too, or just hollow-ground?

Jaywalker

quote:

Originally posted by Jaywalker:
Rick 0311:

quote:

Even a well fitted bit is going to try to wedge itself out of the slot once the force reaches a certain amount...

Rick, does that apply to parallel-ground bits, too, or just hollow-ground?

Jaywalker

Jaywalker,

Just my opinion...but I don’t believe that slotted head screws are designed to be torqued to the same amount as hex,allen, or torx heads are. Obviously, the better styled and fitted bits are going to be better...but even those will start stripping the slot after so much force is applied.

Now, that doesn’t mean that slotted head action screws can’t be snugged down nice and tight...I only warned against trying to torque them to higher inch/pounds like you might with an allen, hex or torx head screw.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Does anyone know if all model 70's have the same size guard screws?

To a large degree, the length of the screws depends on the stock used. So don't expect the screws from your Super Grade to fit your Featherweight, say. How much the screws vary within a particular model (over time), I would not dare to guess.

When you buy the screws at Brownell's (the only after-market screws I have used), you'll likely have to shorten them to fit your particular rifle/stock.

Other than that, I believe there is only one size (diameter, thread pitch etc) guard screws for M70s. But maybe one of our gunsmith members could pitch in here...

- mike

Thanks mho.

It is always nice to learn somthing new. I never realized that "slot head" screws couldn't be made flush. Also I have always heard cross slot screws refered to as "Allen".
The important point is to have screws on your rifle that sets it apart from the others in your condo.
Take Care!

quote:

Originally posted by hawkins:
It is always nice to learn somthing new. I never realized that "slot head" screws couldn't be made flush. Also I have always heard cross slot screws refered to as "Allen".
The important point is to have screws on your rifle that sets it apart from the others in your condo.
Take Care!

Go to hardware store with a slotted head screw and ask the guy to get you a driver to fit it and see what he comes back with.

Slotted head screws can be mad as flush as any other type of screw. Talley sling swivel bases come with extra long headed screws so you can file them down flush before bluing, and scope bases using slotted head screws have the heads recessed and flush or just below the surface.

I thank all of you for the information. If anybody decides to have made or order hex head screws for their CZ 550 Magnum, then add a couple of more sets to the order. I will gladly pay up front to help expedite the order.

quote:

Originally posted by Wink:
I thank all of you for the information. If anybody decides to have made or order hex head screws for their CZ 550 Magnum, then add a couple of more sets to the order. I will gladly pay up front to help expedite the order.

France is a modern industrial nation with quite a large aeronautics industry so they should have machine shop supply stores that sell machine screws in any size and style you need.

The only caveat to using socket head screws is that you can’t find drivers in Timbuktu so you should pack a set when away from home. I believe Torx types are less ‘strippable’ but don’t know it they are available in the necessary sizes.
C.G.B

quote:

Originally posted by cgbach:
The only caveat to using socket head screws is that you can’t find drivers in Timbuktu so you should pack a set when away from home. I believe Torx types are less ‘strippable’ but don’t know it they are available in the necessary sizes.
C.G.B

http://www.lelandpowell.com/torque.htm
http://www.fastener-express.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=207

You can buy torx, allen, and hex screws for just about any size and thread found on a rifle, and it’s a hell of allot easier to strip a slotted head screw than it is to strip the other types. That’s one of the main reasons the other types were invented in the first place.

As far as not having access to a driver bit to fit them when you’re wandering around in the “wilderness“...I think that’s a pretty silly argument. If you can carry ammunition and not lose it why can’t you carry a screw driver and not lose it? If that is a major concern though you could wire an allen or torx wrench to a sling swivel and tape it to the stock.

quote:

Originally posted by hawkins:
It is always nice to learn somthing new. I never realized that "slot head" screws couldn't be made flush. Also I have always heard cross slot screws refered to as "Allen".

I've always heard them called "Phillips", but maybe we're talking about two different things. FWIW, I have never had any problem tightening properly hardened "slotted" action screws with the correct driver bit. Of course, I don't normally use a torque wrench. A common tapered bit screwdriver will try to lever itself out of a screw slot. A parallel-ground bit that fits the slot won't mar the screw slot as long as you keep the shaft centered over the screw. Your mileage may vary.

Rick,
Can you recommend a source for torx action screws?

Glen71 is correct...but that head design was not made for torquing things down real tight. as long as you don’t overdo it on the inch pounds, and as long as you use a toque wrench that is shaped like a regular screw driver rather than those shaped like a socket rachet, you shouldn’t have any problems.

Slotted head screws have one square slot across the head, Phillips head have a tapered four pointed star configuration with straight sided, V shaped flutes between the points , Hex heads obviously are hexagonal (six sided)...and torx heads have a six pointed star shape with radiused flutes between the points.

The latter (torx) has allot more gripping surface area in a given size to apply torque directly centered over the threads. I believe you would probably snap the head off a torx screw, or strip the threads out of whatever you were screwing into, before the bit stripped the socket in the head of the screw.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
Glen71 is correct...but that head design was not made for torquing things down real tight. as long as you don’t overdo it on the inch pounds, and as long as you use a toque wrench that is shaped like a regular screw driver rather than those shaped like a socket rachet, you shouldn’t have any problems.

Slotted head screws have one square slot across the head, Phillips head have a tapered four pointed star configuration with straight sided, V shaped flutes between the points , Hex heads obviously are hexagonal (six sided)...and torx heads have a six pointed star shape with radiused flutes between the points.

The latter (torx) has allot more gripping surface area in a given size to apply torque directly centered over the threads. I believe you would probably snap the head off a torx screw, or strip the threads out of whatever you were screwing into, before the bit stripped the socket in the head of the screw.

Torx are essentially a radiused six-pointed "spline".

There is another type developed by Phillips screw and machine co. it's called Pozi-Driv
and looks superficially like a phillips but has additional "tick" marks between the main crossed slots these are less prone to slipping than the common phillips screws but the subtle difference is overlooked by most people and consequently these screws are routinely removed and reinstalled with regular screwdrivers.

Typically these are used as interior trim retaining screws in automotive applications but I have seen them holding on butt-plate screws etc.


Now you can curse me for telling you about another set of screwdrivers you need to buy.

AllanD

AlanD,

You know sometimes those fancier looking screw heads (like the ones you described) can be nicely engraved and really look classy. I saw some hex head screws embellished with engraving and they looked gorgeous...a bit different...but gorgeous.

I contacted the gunmaker who services my rifles yesterday. He shoots a CZ 550 Magnum.

Apparently there are n't any ready made hexagonal head screws available for this rifle apparently. What he suggests is obtaining uncut screws of appropriate diameter and threading them.

He obtains his parts from people like Bronwell in the USA. He thinks this is likely to be best source.

quote:

Originally posted by robthom:
I contacted the gunmaker who services my rifles yesterday. He shoots a CZ 550 Magnum.

Apparently there are n't any ready made hexagonal head screws available for this rifle apparently. What he suggests is obtaining uncut screws of appropriate diameter and threading them.

He obtains his parts from people like Bronwell in the USA. He thinks this is likely to be best source.

I doubt very seriously that CZ makes their own screws so obviously someone makes that size. Go to either of the sites I listed earlier and check. I have yet to find any sized action screw used on any rifle that can’t be bought commerically with hex or torx heads on them.

Can anyone recommend a source for Torx action screws for Win 70's?

quote:

I have yet to find any sized action screw used on any rifle that can’t be bought commerically with hex or torx heads on them.

Rick 0311

Does anyone other than specialist gunsmithing supply houses have Torx or Allen (hex socket) headed screws in 1/4 x 22 (Mauser98) 1/4 x 30 (P14/M17 Enfield) and 1/4 X 25 ('03 Springfield) ?? I very much doubt it, and even they might come up short on the last two.

Has anyone determined what thread the guard screws of a CZ550 really are? The few BRNO/CZ rifles I have worked on all had M6 x 1 screws (6mm ISO Coarse thread) as have most European and Scandanavian rifles. Anschutz is one exception - they seem to use M6 x 0.75 (6mm ISO Fine) as did some of the earlier model Grunig and Elmiger target rifles. I have heard rumours that some of the older BRNO centrefire rifles might have used M6 x 0.75 too, but I can't confirm that.

Just as an aside, aren't some of the posters to this thread using the wrong terminology? To a mechanical engineer, or someone working in an engineering supply house, the term 'hex head screw' would mean a fastener with a hexagon shaped head that you turn with a spanner or socket wrench, with a fully threaded shank. (unlike a hex head bolt, which is only threaded for the first inch or two, depending on total length)

redrover,

Excuse my non-engineer terminology!

Where do you think firearms manufacturers get the screws that they use in their rifles?

A. They make them themselves?

B. They buy them from fastener manufacturers?

C. They order them from Brownell’s?

If you answered ‘B’...go to the head of the class!!!

Can you walk into Home Depot and buy off standard type machine screws...probably not. Are they available through fastener manufacturers...YES they are, but not two at a time.

Rick: Thanks for the link.

Do you have to email them to find what they actually stock, or is there an on-line listing somewhere that I haven't managed to find?

quote:

Originally posted by redrover:
Rick: Thanks for the link.

Do you have to email them to find what they actually stock, or is there an on-line listing somewhere that I haven't managed to find?

I believe there is a link to local distributors/manufacturers on their web site...and those should have contact numbers and if I recall they have some viewable product lists. Not an easily navigated web site...but if you can find your way through it there is lots of good info and resources for just about every kind/size of fastener you could ever need.

quote:

Posted 07 March 2006 17:03
redrover,

Excuse my non-engineer terminology!

Where do you think firearms manufacturers get the screws that they use in their rifles?

A. They make them themselves?

B. They buy them from fastener manufacturers?

C. They order them from Brownell’s?

If you answered ‘B’...go to the head of the class!!!

Can you walk into Home Depot and buy off standard type machine screws...probably not. Are they available through fastener manufacturers...YES they are, but not two at a time.

Rick 0311

Looks like we have crossed in the post.

I'm not a professional engineer myself, and I wasn't trying to be a Smart Alec about correct terminology. I've had it demonstrated to me a few times in my life that if you ask for an item using the wrong terminology or description, you don't receive what you were expecting to. I would place a good bet that if somebody ordered some 'hex head screws' from a fastener or engineering supply house, what they received would NOT be suitable for guard screws for bolt action rifle!

I've never had any involvement with the mass production of rifles, but yes, I imagine that the major firearms factories would buy their screws (of whatever size, head type and drive means that they want) from specialist fastener manufacturers, in orders of umpteen thousand at a time. But that is irrelevant to Joe Blow who simply wants to replace a few slotted head screws with Torx, hex socket, Pozidrive or whatever.

I expect that outfits like Brownells also had to go to such specialist manufacturers to get things like their Mauser and M70 guard screws made - and pay the high unit prices that always go with comparatively short production runs.

I still cannot find any on-line product lists on that site you referred me to. If I get really stuck, I'll try emailing them, but I can't say that I'm too optimistic about the chances of them stocking the real odd-ball screw types. For example, did ANYTHING but the Enfield rifle use 1/4 inch, 30TPI screws with a Whitworth thread form? Maybe, but I doubt it.

If it is really that big of a problem for you just buy blank socket head screws from Brownells and turn whatever thread you want on them.

Like I said early, you can get any sized screws you want from these companies buy they all will have a minimum order for non-standard sizes. How much is their minimum?...You will never know if you don’t ask them.

I am the head of the class therefore I'll tell ya.You need to know what kind of steel the originals are made out of.You then have to use your dial caliper to measure things.Contact a screw specialist and get some screws to try,hopefully close in on the one you really need.Takes some work,but thats the way to do it right.Use the contacts that Rick has posted.

quote:

You need to know what kind of steel the originals are made out of.You then have to use your dial caliper to measure things.Contact a screw specialist and get some screws to try,hopefully close in on the one you really need.Takes some work,but thats the way to do it right.

Yes, for myself, I basically know the drill - I've gone through the sorts of scenarios you describe a few times. Most recently, I re-shaped the heads of some M6 x 1 high tensile, contersunk, socket head screws to match the head style required for Sako rifle guard screws.

Had a call from a gunsmith friend today to say that he had located located some Enfield guard screws. Just slotted head jobs, but he says that they are in good condition, so they will do me. I would prefer socket head jobs if I could buy them off the shelf, but I reckon that would be like looking for a snowman in hell. And I'm not feeling inclined to pay the price of a new Sako rifle for a special manufacturing run of them. (and have a few hundred 'spares' left over)

Yes, I could pay a machinist with a lathe that can cut a 30 TPI thread to make just a few for me, starting with over-length, 1/4in dia screws with something like the required head style and drive means. However, I'm starting to have doubts about how well hex or Torx socket types would work, anyway, because the heads need to be very shallow - unless I want to deepen the counterbores in the trigger guard/floorplate.

Going back to the question that started this whole discussion, it's hard for anyone to make useful suggestions about substitute, socket head guard screws for a CZ550 without knowing what thread and head style and size the originals are.

redrover,

You can get hex and torx machine screws in head styles that don’t require the deep counter sinks like caps heads do.

If you do a search on the ineternet under “machine screws†there are lots of sites that have diagrams of all industry standard screw head and drive types. The Machinists Handbook also has an entire section on machine screws.

You can use regular slotted drive screws on any rifle, you just have to be careful and have a really good driver bit and technique if you try to apply higher torque to them. Not a job for the .99 cent screw driver or a Leatherman tool!

I have noithing to contribute to the technical history of this discussion, so maybe I can provide some practical user info based on my experiences with them.


If I wanted Allen head type stock bolts for my rifles, one of the first things I would do is measure the diameter of the head of the bolt.

Then I would either compare that diameter to the head of any bolt offered to me by a vendor, or specify that head diameter to the person I was hoping could supply them.

The reason is, I find the heads of the Allen-bolts Brownell supplies to be much too small in diameter to "look" correct on some makes of rifles. The worst offenders in my eyes are their replacement bolts for the Winchester Model 70.

The heads on the Brownell Model 70 bolts, because of their rounded profile, are also thinner than the factory Model 70 bolt-heads and therefore "appear" less sturdy. Whether they actually are, I don't know. To me they are such a mismatch dimensionally that I will not use that "brand".

As to carrying an Allen wrench on the rifle, that is a piece of cake if your rifle has a sling with a buckle. Where the leather is sewn around the buckle there is a small gap in the threads on the inside of the loop. I just shove the long arm of the Allen wrench into that gap and it literally slides down inside the sling, with the short arm of the wrench parallel to and under the buckle's base.

That works well enough that I have two Model 70's that have had Allen bolts for both scope mounts and stock bolts for over 30 years. The two small wrenches have ridden in their slings all that time and none have even begun to work their way out (and get lost).

One last thought....buy good quality Allen wrenches and good quality bolts, and you will find they fit together much better (closer) than the average Chinese blister-pack trash now flooding our so called "hardware" suppliers.

Many cheap versions of either one have poor dimensional control exerised over their manufacture and fit together really sloppily. They also may be made of less strong metal. Sloppy fit can mean much quicker stripping of the load-bearing surfaces, especially when teamed with too soft metal.

I had previously seen McMaster Carr as a source for various types of fastners, although they won't have the 1/4-30 or other less commonly used sizes. It is a helpful resource to understand what is readily available.


http://www.mcmaster.com/