1. You don't have to have a bazillion bucks to hire one. I certainly don't. It is nice for them to get a check at the end of a big job, but they have to pay the light bill and put new shoes on the kids until that happy day. You might be surprised at who would be happy to knock out some straight forward work in a reasonable amount of time at a reasonable price.

2. Try and match your desired work to an appropriate artisan. After a couple years on this board, I have a little feel for who likes to do what. Hell, I've seen a lot of pictures of their work. Over the next few years I am going to have my 1909 actions and my lone G 33/40 slowly turned into classic looking sporters. They will all sport Talley bolt handles, I will send all those handles to Scrollcutter to put a simple design on each one. He does a lot of bolt handles and can probably knock each of these out in the time it takes me to drink a 20 ounce Diet Coke (with Splenda). When the guns are still in the white, but regulated, they will go to to him to have the pertinent information cut (or pounded) into the barrels/receivers. Maybe even a dash of appropriate scroll work.

3. Send in a check for $250.00 at the start of the job. It lets the guy with the lathe know you aren't a nickel nosed, shingle beak chiseler (don't we all like to work with those folks?). If he has to order in a barrel, safety, trigger or what not he can make the downstroke with your money, not his. As the project goes along, make sure you stay at least a little ahead of the money curve. If progress flows, so does the money. The converse is also true. It is a self regulating system that is fair to everyone involved.

4. Listen to what this very experience wood/metal/both craftsman says. Two of the fellows I have talked to recently have subtly let me know that the only way they would consider using a Gentry three position safety is if I cut out my left testicle and mailed it to them wrapped in ten one hundred dollar bills. Sooooooooooo, I won't ask them to do that.

5. Know ahead of time what really matters to you, and what you can be flexible on. I will use any barrel on a hunting rifle, as long as it is from Rock or Krieger. Why? 'Cause that is what I want. I'm willing to wait fourteen to sixteen weeks for those particular barrels.

On a little project that is going on right now, my smith really likes Blackburn triggers and Talley bases. Sounds fine to me. If he had said he really likes NECG/ERA triggers and Warne steel bases, I would have said "sounds fine to me."

6. Communicate - by e-mail. Your gun maker can send you a note when it is convenient for him, and vice versa. Keep it brief. The appropriate venue for shaggy dog stories is around the campfire, or on this forum. The poor guy is trying to make a living. You can't make much money for time on the phone. When it is time to checker, it generally ain't time to yack.

7. Why not put a little custom work into old-meat-in-the-pot? With a solid pillar bed job and a small torque wrench you now have a semi-take down rig that will fit in a short case in your duffel bag. Just about any rack grade hunting rifle will benefit from some expert trigger smoothing and tuning, or replacement. There is a guy in Wyoming who makes all his pocket money by tuning Remington factory triggers for $35.00 each. I use him, and all my remington rifles have nearly identical and very clean 3 1/4 # tigger pulls.

8. Know what you can do, and what you should hire someone who knows what he is doing to do for you. I really like draw filing and finishing metal. Ibid for finishing wood with fine sandpaper and many coats of hand applied potions. It is calming, and I have done it with good results in the past. Metal work with a lathe or mill? No way. Bed a McMillan stock? Sure. Pillar bed a wood stock? Uh, uh; nope.

9. Don't be afraid to try something new. Mark Stratton likes Dakota and NECG safeties; they are straight forward to install (it sounds like Vapodog had a trying experience with one), and work well. Still, Ed Lapour just came out with a model 98 three position safety. I was curious and Mark was gracious, so we will see how it works.

10. Start out small. I am having Jim Kobe convert a Sako from 30-06 to 9.3 x 66. Mark Stratton is mating an Interarms action to a 9.3 x 64 barrel I bought from a fellow poster for a very fair price. I will send a Model 70 Classic off to Dennis Olson for conversion to 404J. Nothing exotic. All three rifles will come back much better than they went out, and I will learn from each one. When my ship comes in (ha, ha, ha), I will have more of an idea of how to commission some rifles like Forrest has done.

11. To get an extra round down in the magazine will cost a minimum of a $1,000.00 extra. That statement is not to dissuade you, just to fore warn you. If you want that feature, save a little more money up.

12. Before you ask someone to exactly duplicate a period type rifle from the years between 1890 and 1941, remember that those rifles were built when skilled hand labor was abundant and relatively cheap. Also remember that if today's components were available then, Rigby, Purdey, Holland & Holland, etc. would have used them in a flash. Do try and emulate the fit, form and handling of those old bespoke rifles. I have shot a few of them, and it was a delight each time.

End of Rant.

LD

Sweet post, lawndart.

flaco

well, damn, JC...

quote:

Know what you can do, and what you should hire someone who knows what he is doing to do for you.

wish you had told me this 10 years ago..

anyone want to buy a home machine shop ?


Excellent post...

I think there's 2 more points to add
0: IF YOU LOOK FOR FLAWS AND FAULTS YOU WILL FIND THEM. This applies to cars, women, guns, houses and anything that a man may ever have dreams of being with


13: this is NO gunsmithing problem that time and money can not fix. The question is, are you willing to spend the money or take the time. After all, it is (well was) cheaper to start with a model 70 than a mauser, at the end of the project!

14: an absolute rule: if the smith is not engaged (wontto) in your project, it will not go either was well, as fast, or as cheap as you would like. But, then again, if he is over engage, it will not go either was well, as fast, or as cheap as you would like.

quote:

11. To get an extra round down in the magazine will cost a minimum of a $1,000.00 extra. That statement is not to dissuade you, just to fore warn you. If you want that feature, save a little more money up.

yep!!! considering a ground up project
$400 custom bottom metal
$400 pattern alteration
$200 fitting and feeding bottom

I think most of that could be boiled down to this.

1. Treat the gunmaker as you would want to be treated if he were coming to you to have you do your work for him, i.e. respect his (or her) specialized knowledge and skills, and don't be a cheap bastard!!!!

I whole heartly argree with the comments above I would add:

1. Work with individuals or companies you trust and even better who have done good work for you in the past.

2.If you have a gunsmith in the above category, and he recomends he outsources something to a third party that falls into #1 above for him pay attention, he is usually trying to save you hassles and dollars.

3. Remember gunsmiths aren't charity organizations they need to make a living just like the rest of us, if something you have requested a quote on seems high, ask why politly. Most times its because you parts cost a lot, or its very labor intensive, asking this question and being flexible as Lawndart suggested often gets the answer if you change this it can be done for a lesser amount.

4. You usually pay for stuborn. Notice Lawndart above, a Rock or Krieger barrel cost more in both time and money. I get stuborn all the time on my rifles, some things matter to me, and I am unwilling to compromise, I know it and pay for it.

5. One last casual observation I personally know a fair amount of gunsmiths. They tend to be independent types as a rule, that for the most part are very intelligent, I have never meet a successful gunsmith that was a dummy. Remember that when your talking and working with them. Your probably not going to see a diploma displayed on the wall, but they have bushel baskets of common sense to offset that.

Liquor and Christmas cards are always a good idea

Terry

I thought that was "liquor, then Christmas cards". That way they get the really funny ones. To me, anyway.

lawndart,

Damn that was good!

Thanks for taking the time... I cut and pasted it right into my 'rifle projects' folder.

I don't believe anyone has yet written a 'Comissioning a Custom Rifle for Idiots'. What do you say? I think you're on the right track and it would help out us customers as well as the trade in general...

Good job!

Regards,
Dave

After some more comments, I would be happy to clean this up. Perhaps Don could then tack it somewhere on the site.

22WRF,
Nice job of boiling it down to its essence. One of the frustrations of my profession is having patients who don't want to pay for, or listen to, what I have learned about medicine over the last twenty five years.

Jeffe,
You and me bro, you and me both.

TC1,
That should probably be point #1.

LD

quote:

Originally posted by DavidC:
lawndart,

Damn that was good!

Thanks for taking the time... I cut and pasted it right into my 'rifle projects' folder.

I don't believe anyone has yet written a 'Comissioning a Custom Rifle for Idiots'. What do you say? I think you're on the right track and it would help out us customers as well as the trade in general...

Good job!

Regards,
Dave

Actually, I believe the American Custom Gunmakers Guild puts out a phamplet that speaks directly to commissioning a custom firearm. I don't know if they will sell it to idiots or not.

More pictures please!

If you find someone with that pattern, please let me know.

LD

22WRF,

I have the ACGG handbook and it's okay.

Idiot.....? well I wouldn't want my wife responding to that question....

Regards,
Dave

I am new to rifles (last year or so for actual personal use) although I've been around them forever. I didn't realize just how many "little" things there are to make decisions on with a custom gun v. an "off-the-shelf" gun. From a novice's standpoint, one thing I've learned is that using someone you know really well in that situation can be a hindrance as they tend to think they know what you need better than you do and sometimes don't listen to what you're telling them. This is especially true when you are left-handed and small - 12 1/4" LOP. I am getting better and am enjoying learning, but I really want someone who will listen even if I'm not using the technical lingo sometimes. I have had better experience with that with someone who really doesn't know "me" that well. That being said, I know of a couple of gunmakers that are just hard-headed and want you to have what they want you to have, not necessarily what you think you want or need.

Hope that made some sort of sense!

I've had a few of these done now and by no means am I an authority on the subject, but communication is what I've found to be the most important factor when it comes to the decision to commission out work for a custom job. If I can't accurately describe what I want, chances are I'm not going to like what I end up with. If the guy doing the work seems irritated by a few questions before the job starts or is hard to get in touch with, or you feel "put off" talking to the guy, you're probably going to have trouble during the project or not like the final product. You should state all your concerns up front and he should be able to answer all your questions and concerns. The jobs that went smoothest for me are the ones that I enjoyed speaking with the guy building the rifle. Be patient, bugging the hell out of some one doesn't make them work any faster. The work should be completed reasonably close to the time agreed on, but don't expect it on that day, things happen.

Also, know what in the hell you want before you commission the work! I've never built a rifle, but I would find it irritating as hell if the guy I was doing it for kept changing his mind about what he wanted. Some things are un-avoidable, but the decisions should be made before the works starts.

Also, DON'T ASSUME ANYTHING, chamber, finishes, checkering etc. one of the most disappointing guns I ever had built was because the guy chambered the barrel with tight neck. I didn't ask for it and it added hours to reloading the wildcat rounds for it. Goes back to the communication issue.

That's my contribution to this thread.

Terry

Lawndart, This was time well spent. Good job and very thought provoking... though expensive. Thanks!
Dave

quote:

This is especially true when you are left-handed and small - 12 1/4" LOP. I am getting better and am enjoying learning, but I really want someone who will listen even if I'm not using the technical lingo sometimes. I have had better experience with that with someone who really doesn't know "me" that well. That being said, I know of a couple of gunmakers that are just hard-headed and want you to have what they want you to have, not necessarily what you think you want or need.

Gotogirl3--

I understand the same problem. I like classic English style rifles and I am over 6'8" tall. I need a very long length of pull, over 15 inch, and I do not want modern styling at all. Good luck with your rifles and good hunting!

Another thought I had, what are we up to now, # 20 or 22?

Anyway:

24. Look at a bunch of pictures of the guy's work. Just as other docs in my area recognize my style of suturing up a wound, every gunsmith has conscious or unconscious "signatures" to their work. If pictures of their previous projects jump out at you in either a positive or negative way, that is a big clue to whether or not it will work for you.

63. If you are commissioning a rifle for your wife, girlfriend, hose-monster, etc. have one of the excellent female engravers or checkering artists do that portion of the work. Tell them the rifle is for a female. The result won't be frilly, but there will be some subtle differences that she will like.

gotogirl3,

For stock work, check with Wenig's Gunstocks up in Missouri. They mainly do shotgun stocks, but they understand that women need a higher comb for their higher cheek bones and longer necks, and a fair amount of cast off and toe out to the butt stock to avoid the dreaded "bruised hooter" syndrome. With the short stock you will probably have better balance with a shorter barrel. These are a couple of things I have noticed while building up a rifle or three for Lois.

LD

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:
If you are commissioning a rifle for your wife, girlfriend, hose-monster, etc.

Is hose-monster a medical term?

Nostalgic term,

Hose-Monster: A term of endearment applied by a younger fighter pilot to any girlfriend that has put up with his crap for more than three weeks. After three months she becomes a unit. After six months she becomes a fond memory because she has figured out that there ain't no SUV, Boob Job for Christmas (BJfC) or split-level in a burb in her future with you.

Guard Dog: Comely young lady who enlists in the Air National Guard and hangs out at the operations building so as to meet pilots who just got off active duty and are now flying for the ANG and a major airline. With the recent pay cuts I imagine that this method for obtaining an SUV, BJfC and split level in a burb will fall out of favor.

Now, I just buy guns and shoot birds. It is safer. Lois has been putting up with my crap for three years. That makes her an (she's looking over my shoulder right now ) SEU. To me that means SEnior Unit. To her that means Spousal Equivalent Unit. As if. "Godamnit honey, quit hitting me, I'm on AR."

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:
gotogirl3,

For stock work, check with Wenig's Gunstocks up in Missouri. They mainly do shotgun stocks, but they understand that women need a higher comb for their higher cheek bones and longer necks, and a fair amount of cast off and toe out to the butt stock to avoid the dreaded "bruised hooter" syndrome. With the short stock you will probably have better balance with a shorter barrel. These are a couple of things I have noticed while building up a rifle or three for Lois.

LD

That is one of the things I like about H-S Precision - the stock fit on my .300WM is perfect and I expect the .375H&H will be as soon as it arrives. Thanks for the info though. It will go in my "gun info" folder.

P.S. I don't like "girlie" stuff on my guns or most any of my hunting/shooting stuff. When I get ready for girlie stuff, I'll throw own a pair of 3" Manolo Blahnik pumps, a nice little dress, and go girlie the way it should be done.

One of the difficult things for someone considering a custom rifle project is treading the line between getting sufficient information out of prospective ‘smiths in order to make a good decision, and being a pest with too many questions. As a prospective client I don’t want to “nickel and dime†the gunsmith, but I do want to know if we’re playing in the same league. This can be a frustrating exercise, on both sides I’m sure. I don’t want to send out a hundred emails or make loads of calls wasting many people’s time, but I do have more than just a passing curiosity as to what an idea might cost to bring to reality.

quote:

P.S. I don't like "girlie" stuff on my guns or most any of my hunting/shooting stuff. When I get ready for girlie stuff, I'll throw own a pair of 3" Manolo Blahnik pumps, a nice little dress, and go girlie the way it should be done.

My redhead [wife] would love you!

quote:

P.S. I don't like "girlie" stuff on my guns or most any of my hunting/shooting stuff. When I get ready for girlie stuff, I'll throw own a pair of 3" Manolo Blahnik pumps, a nice little dress, and go girlie the way it should be done.

Pictures please.

"Damnit Lois, quit hitting me".

quote:

That is one of the things I like about H-S Precision - the stock fit on my .300WM is perfect and I expect the .375H&H will be as soon as it arrives. Thanks for the info though. It will go in my "gun info" folder.

P.S. I don't like "girlie" stuff on my guns or most any of my hunting/shooting stuff. When I get ready for girlie stuff, I'll throw own a pair of 3" Manolo Blahnik pumps, a nice little dress, and go girlie the way it should be done.

I always knew there was something I liked about Texas girls.

Wanted: A girl who is into hunting and shooting.
Please send photo of Rifle.