Folks I have my .585 HE back at the smiths ready for finishing off.

Rust Blue I know looks amazing, my smith said to me it will be double the cost over his other method.

He says he can get his normal method to look the same for half the cost.

He mentions durability the same for either of his method in that if cared for properly both would last 100 years.

Is it worth the extra cost ? or save money for a look that he states is the same level of durability and emulates the look of rust blue at any rate.

The rifle is in "African" style, 1/4 rib etc.

What's his "normal bluing?"

I just had a Blackhawk rebarreled.
Spent at least six hours arguing with
the pistolsmith that I did NOT want
cerakote as it wouldn't match the gun.

Sure as hell, flat black on a blued gun.
I don't care if it is ten times as good
as bluing, I want my guns all one color
to match and look decent. Not part each
type finish.

Good luck with yours,

George

Before deciding I would ask to see a side by side comparison of his two methods. A visual is worth a thousand words.

Thanks Folks I have asked for a pic of both and what the other method is. IF its exactly same look and durability probably not worth spending the extra, have a little time before I decide I think.

Nothing beats a good slow rust blue job when it comes to durability and appearance. As far as viewing 'pics', that's not worth the time. Metal finishes are about impossible to judge in pictures. I'd find a different 'smith if the one you have thinks 'normal bluing' (hot caustic?) is as durable as slow rust.

A hot caustic blue is also very durable - and quicker than slow rust bluing. That is what is used in most factories. Takes more investment in terms of equipment and materials, but you go from in the white to finished product with much less labour. Done well it gives a rich deep gloss black finish.

Rust is the more artisanal way, and principle cost is time doing multiple rustings, boilings and cardings. To get a good finish is probably 10 to 20 cycles.

If a gunsmith is unwilling to use a particular method then I would farm out the work to somebody who can.

Hot bluing can be hot enough that it melts soldered on fittings.

Ceracoate and other ceramic finishes are OK for tools, frying pans and utility rifles. They are not good for fine traditional firearms.

I would like to see an objective evaluation of the durability of rust blue vs. caustic. Things get said and repeated, but I am not so sure. One advantage of rust blue is that someone who really knows their stuff can do a touch up.

Forget the notion of durability; both hot and rust will wear.
Looks? depends on how the hot blue was polished; remember what you are seeing is not the "blue", it is the underlying polish reflecting light. Rust blue etches the surface to varying degrees depending on a lot of factors.
Cost: Hot blue takes 5 minutes, after you polish it. Rust blue takes several days, most of which you do nothing, but it does require lots of carding, and it is more time consuming. Hot blue costs $150 and rust bluing costs $400; again depending on a lot.
If you just wanted your new barrel blued, that would not out much. If you want the whole revolver blued, see above.
If you just want your barrel rust blued, go to Bobster's web site and buy a bottle of solution and do it yourself. It is actually easy, just takes time.
Oh, hot bluing will NOT melt solder; (it doesn't get that hot; it is basically boiling lye) but it will eat it chemically, which is why we use tin and silver; not lead, and the old shotguns that used lead have to be rust blued.
I now see this is about the rifle in Aus, not the revolver barrel.
Yes, just have him do the hot bluing; he will blast it lightly to get a slightly satin finish like rust bluing; not a high polish. Rust bluing is not worth it on a shooter/hunter. Unless someone wants it.

Thirty years or so ago, I was doing hot blueing on a regular basis. When I was doing matte blueing, I found that using a super fine grade of sand for blasting worked beautifully. My supplier said they carried this for hotels to use in their ashtrays, you remember, you could mold it with the hotels crest in it, until you stubbed out cigs in it anyway, this stuff was almost like powdered sugar and it left the most beautiful eggshell finish on metal after blasting and when you hot blued it, it was far closer to a rust blued appearance than anything else i have ever seen, far better than even the finer grades of glass beads.

Soda blasting rather than sand or glass bead comes to mind.

quote:

this stuff was almost like powdered sugar

My supplier actually labels his Sugar Sand.

If you look at sand under a microscope you will see that it looks like little rocks and is abrasive, it actually cuts and craters the steel. Conversely when bead blasting it is like microscopic marbles and actually peens the metal.

That is why preparation by sand blasting is much more susceptible to rust. With bead blasting the metal being peened is more rust resistant and wear resistant.

We use what is called "suger sand" for filtering maple syrup.
It's true name is diatomaceous earth. I wonder if that is what they used?

I believe it is a silica blasting media. We use it at the shop. It does leave a beautiful matte finish. If you wire wheel it with a carding wheel you get a kind of semi-gloss finish. Then hot blue it.

The stuff we use is a silica also, bet it is the same.

I never plug barrels; they don't get hurt by the process. Lest some think that they need fancy tools to do rust bluing.

I never plug barrels either, I worry more about moisture getting past a gasket or o-ring and sitting in there un-noticed until I'm done.

Setter5...spot on! If I remember to do so, I apply a coat of poly with a patch to the bore. Might make clean up a little easier I forgot who suggested that.

With or without, never had bore damage

Bore plugging is a leftover procedure from industrial rust bluing like armories did. Whole racks of barrels were submerged in large vats of rust bluing solution. Then pulled out and left to drip dry. The bores had to be plugged.

When you are doing it in the shop you just wipe the solution where you need it, avoiding areas where you don't want it. If I am rust bluing an area adjacent to in-the-white/color cased metal I often mask off the blued area and clear coat the other in clear auto lacquer. Then remove the lacquer after bluing.

Bob
www.rustblue.com

So, who is your new pistol smith now George?

quote:

Originally posted by georgeld:
What's his "normal bluing?"

I just had a Blackhawk rebarreled.
Spent at least six hours arguing with
the pistolsmith that I did NOT want
cerakote as it wouldn't match the gun.

Sure as hell, flat black on a blued gun.
I don't care if it is ten times as good
as bluing, I want my guns all one color
to match and look decent. Not part each
type finish.

Good luck with yours,

George

I reblued a few 1000 guns or more. I enjoyed everything about the bluing aspect. From disassembly to polishing the parts to watching the blue set in. one moment its silver and the next its blue.

Getting a old md 12 nickel steel and getting it hot enough so its blued not purplish.

Go to the top of the Stockmaker Show and Tell on this site. I show my latest setup on rust bluing on page 6 at the end of this posting.

It is simple to make and for less the $100 dollars.

DVD and USB has a complete write up and I will still have these available if anyone would like to order my work projects.

Les Brooks, retired gunsmith

I suppose this blog is seething with bull shit,

Why is then that well used English guns and The bruno mod 21s and 22s rust blued in the 1950 still have 100 percent beautiful blue even with hard use over the last Some English bolt guns and some double rifles the same. then the rem mod 721 and 722 had some kind of a cold blue I told and those old guns still look newish when the wood is rotten.

I will take an old world rust blue over any finish out there today, its worth the money IMO. If wanting a rust blue go with a smith that does a lot of that on a daily bases, the more you do the better you get at it...

conversational?

I thought salt blue was a no-no on a side by side gun because it eats up the solder joint....but what do I know....

It is; sodium hydroxide will eat lead solder.
Ray, no one can spend $500 on a rust blue job on a $400 rifle, which is what is selling most of these days.

.. and silver

Right, there are doubles that are hot blued, but they used tin or brass brazed them together. I use Brownells force 44 all the time; tin and 5% silver; bluing does not affect that.

My questions would be:

- Old world build (double, Mauser, Pe-64 Model 70, etc.) or newer build (Rem 700, etc.)? For me, old world deserves rust blue and the newer builds can be anything you want. Edit - Saw you built on a Montana PH action, which is investment cast, is there a chance of the blue going purple like some of the old Rugers I have had?

- How much have you spent on the build so far? Is a $300 or so difference in the bluing 1%, 10% or 50% of your overall cost? Is it worth it to you?

- Where will you use it, on safari, on buff in Australia? i.e. - What climate will you use it in?

Personally, I love the look of rust blue over hot blued and have had less maintenance issues with it. Ceracoat(?) is not a favorite of mine, but it has its place and purpose.

Comes down to what do you prefer and when you are on safari, in a blind, or riding in a vehicle, which do you want to look down and see?
Will you love the entire rifle but wish you had spent the extra for rust bluing?

Only you can answer that.

quote:

Originally posted by SmallCal:
Saw you built on a Montana PH action, which is investment cast, is there a chance of the blue going purple like some of the old Rugers I have had?

they are actually cast by ruger! pine tree castings

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Right, there are doubles that are hot blued, but they used tin or brass brazed them together. I use Brownells force 44 all the time; tin and 5% silver; bluing does not affect that.

You might want to try Stay Bright by Harris 6% silver and use the flux Stay Clean. I find it doesn't have ALL the after rust issues you get with Force 44 flux ..and the joint has to be a little stronger with the extra silver content

Yes you have to clean up very well after using force 44 flux.

dpcd,
I agree that on a $400 rifle, hot blue is the way to go, The gun in question is a high dollar English rifle in African style, that deserves a perfect rust blue..but Im old school on custom rifles, and I reserve that right of choice!

Of course, high dollar custom rifles need rust blue.

Cannot let DPCD have the last word. Rust blue is also appropriate when one's client wants the best. I recently hand polished and rust blued an old Winchester M37 single shot shotgun that was rusted and pitted from the rear tang to the front bead. Lots of quality time with a bastard file. The price tag? Well, as I told the client before we started, the cost would far exceed the value of the shotgun. He didn't care. The shotgun was his when he was young and it is intended for his only grandson. The old Winchester looked great after bluing and my client was beyond surprised and happy. For those who can discern the difference, rust bluing is the only way to go, IMO. Pre-'64 M70s and M12s also look better than factory new when properly polished and rust blued.