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Just curious as to the cost of "More Down". I would think learning to be proficient at reloading your rifle quickly would be more beneficial. If the problem can be solved with simply a different floor plate that it is not a big deal, i would think. But sounds like new bottom metal is often required. Given that most DGRs hold at least 3 down and even a ham fisted maladroit like me can learn to proficiently pull the bolt back about 3/4 of the way stuff the one on the bolt face back into the magazine and top off with another round or two rather quickly...that this is an easier way to go. Now granted not something you want to do during the heat of battle. But I am trying to imagine a DG scenario where I go through 4 rounds and don't have at least 5 seconds spare to top off; realize this means that I missed 4 times in rapid succession so I don't think 5 is going to solve the problem. In other dangerous situations for example in self defense with a pistol, we teach folks to not be shy about dumping a half full magazine and slapping a new one in. I would think the proficient gun handling skills would also have other benefits. For example, this gentleman seems to have become proficient in reloading his revolver. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ro62xajzH8w but I digress...what does it typically cost to add 1 round of capacity to the typical DGR in 375/416/458? Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | ||
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jerry is frickin badass. we need to clone him, or at least extract his gunhand dna and put into mine. I agree, just like I have a feeding issue with my 375H&H, the last round, without the extra pressure pushing up of other rounds, doesn't come full into the bolt face. so theoretically under some situations could come out of the action. I figure by the time I get to that round, I may be pretty much f*ed anyways. Red | |||
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Somewhere between 0% and 25% of total build cost. I guess "we" have decided that 4 is the magic to have in reserve. If you think about it, there are some good reasons for this. In a DG situation it is not uncommon to follow your first shot with two quick follow-up shots. I did this on my second buffalo(using a Sako FN in 375 that holds 3 down) and he went down on that third shot. If he had turned to charge instead of going down I would have had one shot to finish the him. I really don't like the idea of trying to reload during a charge! Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Mike: Enjoyed your comment..I once had a client in Alaska, put together a 338 Win that someone else had done the metal work. Good job! held three down! A year later, he sent the rifle back to me with a note..."Make this f....thing hold another round" Called him..."What happened?" "Brown came in at extreme velocity... within 10 feet, dropped him with the very last round...changed unerwear...make it hold one more!"...Jeez...I'm thinking...maybe bannana clip? | |||
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I have hunted with single shots, doubles, bolt rifles and semiautos... When picking a bolt rifle I really do not consider how many rounds it holds. But I do think it a good idea to practice reloading your gun until it is second nature, and you can do it smoothly and reliability 100% of the time without causing a "jam". DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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I look at the issue and think sure 1 more is better hey two more is even "mo better" and heck why not a bannana clip as Duane says. It would seem that practicing better tactics would be better an dof course sometimes tactics don't matter cause stuff just goes to sh*t in a hurry. Jason, I had not ever heard of the fire your shot and two quick follow ups. I have heard if it is moving shoot it again. But then I think that is a time to practice the adage of speed is fine and accuracy is final. I am sure Tony has heard the adage..."you can't miss fast enough to catch up." Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Jim Wisner offers a "Plus One" extended floor plate for some, I have two of them on CZ's. I favor the one of the 416 Rigby more, one extra round in the "heat of battle" might be the one that ends the fray in your favor (ie still alive). Rich | |||
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Mike Exactly. One of the best things a bolt rifle shooter should know how to do is quickly reload a totally empty gun with ONE round. Sometimes that may be all the time you have... Also you should know how to do this with your floorplate open, incase it comes open, or because of a "jam" you have opened it on purose... When in a tight situation, Gun Handling can be just as important as Marksmanship. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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In the heat of battle are most gunners with a magazine rifle able to count rounds or do they normally fire until there is a click? I like the idea of more down. | |||
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86, The answer is it depends on how seriously you take your training. You will "play" like you "practice". The good ones always know their weapons status. The ones that aren't good...often become deceased. I am of course referring to military and law enforcement. No matter how many you have "down", there can always be a scenario that you need more. You can go from 3 to 4 down...but why not 5 down... I would rather be better at gun handling and tactics... I posted on one of the other forums about pre-shot planning and thinking in advance about limitations based on shooting position once and everyboday was like..."I just take shot...I know instantly whether I can make it or not" I though that was a pretty silly attitude. If I am hunting something that can kill me...I think a lot about 2nd and 3rd shot follow up before pulling the trigger. What issues exist if the animal runs this way or that way...making sure I know where the guide is in case I have to move. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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#4 in or sig. 3+1 4+1 5+1 ain't gonna matter if you didn't 1. bring enough gun. 2. do your part and put the lead where it belongs. And even then it may not be enough. I say DG rifle rules should be as follows 1. Bring enough gun. 2. Practice with it so it an be operated, fired reloaded, unloaded, without thought or effort. 3. Proper marksmanship 4. When in doubt bring more gun www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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Adding capacity to a bolt rifle for big $ will always be popular with 2 types of folks: Those who can't be bothered to do their training realisically, and Those who think spending big $ makes them special. My second-choice DGR holds 6 down + 1; first-choice DGR holds one shot, period. Of course, neither are bolt rifles. Why not spend the extra money on practice? Then you wouldn't need all those quick follow-up (?) shots! Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Leave the military follower on a Mauser 98 and at least you should know that you haven't closed the bolt on an empty chamber. _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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the cost of 1 down is about the same as add .35" to a mauser action! opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Me too. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Some interesing points here: 1. Dago Red needs to find a compotent gunsmith 2. Make sure your bolt will actually close on a round "stuffed up the pipe". 3. I tend to agree about the military follower. At SMP, our followers are made to have it either way. 4. I get requests from all over the world to add capacity...Most from PH's 5. Most PH's are pretty cool shots, with experience..not jaw blusters. I pay attention! 5. It takes a lot less time to cycle the bolt than reach for a round and stuff it up the pipe | |||
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Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and mine differs from this, while Duane's seems more in line with my thinking. Having never been charged, YET, I simply go with what seems most practical to me, the 4+1 option given by a good drop mag. I will say, having been at a dozen Grizzly kills and been within ten yds. of a mature Grizzly on three occasions, plus having witnessed just how fast they can cover ground when they want to, that I consider the extra cost of a drop mag. to be money well spent and prefer this to "fleur-de-lis" checkering and other such "dude" affectations on my serious hunting and working rifles, each to his own. | |||
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Certainly more is always better...these kinds of discussions always remind me of the time when I was at the skeet field and the young guy who drove up in the Porsche was descibing how when he go his new Remington 3200 that his scores would improve because of faster lock time and the old guy said... I got a better idea...buy a case of shells and practice... Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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And...my mother sugggested that if it makes you feel better to carry an apple in your pocket...you should carry an apple in your pocket | |||
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That's why I am so fat...I was always carrying candy bars Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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The comfort zone of a 3200, Porsches, apples and candy bars. Some years ago, is RSA, I observed my PH "Christo" have a client shoot at 25 yards! Yeah...25 yds! This guy had missed a bunch! I asked him about the logic. His answer was "Now he's got self confidence" Sure enough...the guy made three one shot kills! So much of this is between the ears...just accept it ! | |||
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The Wisner Plus One extended floor plate at under $100 does not seem to get much favorable comment. Is that because it's too simple and cost-effective? Rich | |||
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You got it! Why, 'most ANYONE can have one of THOSE! Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Duane, That sure is true..get soembody ratlled and they are screwed. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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A monkey with the best kit is still a monkey. But I still want the best equipment I can afford. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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