First let me explain I know about 0 on the subject. I've read about how some of the members cut and weld to make shorter / longer actions, add bridges and so on. The question is with the modern welding technology (Mig ? Tig?) and using heat sinks is it necessary to have the bolt / receiver heat treated afterwards. I don't envision getting near the locking parts, as in lugs etc. Thank you in advance for any input. --- John

Go get a copy of Jack Mitchell's book Riflesmithing

He has a nice chapter in there on just how to do the whole thing. and yes the action was reheat treated but the bolt was silver brazed with proper placement of heat stop. So no retreating the bolt.

John, have a look here- http://www.customgunandrifle.c...unmaking-in-progress
No need for re- heat treat if you use proper heat control methods.

dpcd is correct. There is no need to re-heat treat. You need to build a special alignment block out of steel in the mill to clamp your parts into for welding. It will keep your parts in perfect alignment while welding and help keep things from warping during the heating and cooling. I used to pack the front receiver ring with wet toilet paper while welding. TIG is the nicest but back when I did most of that, TIG was unheard of and 90% of what I did was gas welded.

I used to cut the bolts and leave a male and female butt and silver solder them together. I used to pack the cocking cam and lugs with wet toilet paper.

quote:

Originally posted by John303.:
First let me explain I know about 0 on the subject. I've read about how some of the members cut and weld to make shorter / longer actions, add bridges and so on.
The question is with the modern welding technology (Mig ? Tig?) and using heat sinks is it necessary to have the bolt / receiver heat treated afterwards....

-certain custom builders will R_H_T an action even if they aren't welding it,

-Some will weld bridges on both front and rear, where others will caution and NOT weld the front.
(opinion remains divided)

>> IF I was paying someone serious dollars to build a rifle [including cut and re-join a M98 or pre64 for eg]
I would totally insist on modern computer controlled R_H_T from a trusted service provider.

>> I consider it important to ensure the metallurgy is all 'confirmed ship-shape' in such a critical component- high pressure vessel.

Some people will spend several thousands $ on 'cosmetics' for a rifle,
but stall at spending the small amount for R_H_T to ensure metallurgical integrity.... I consider that dumb.

Shops like Echols & Co., Miller and H&H (and others).. don't R_H_T actions just for time wasting kicks.

We metallurgists spend lots of time trying to teach the importance of re-HT !!

It's always been my practice to have questionable actions rockwell tested before starting work. If it fails, it's best to simply find another donor action. If it passes, why re-heat treat it? The steel in those days was questionable at best compared to modern steel and giving some one an action to heat treat and telling them that the steel could be close to 4140 is really just a guessing game.

I have also gotten receivers back from heat treat and had them warped and twisted up like pretzels. I was always taught that when you had to put steal into a press and start physically bending it around you were compromising the integrity. Personally, I never weld on the lugs of bolts or the front receiver rings of actions. Soft solder is as far as I'm willing to go in those areas. But I'm a chicken chit and I haven't blown anyone up yet.

I'd like to. Just a couple people. But the gubberment says that's bad so I don't do it. LOL

quote:

Originally posted by speerchucker30x378:

I have also gotten receivers back from heat treat and had them warped and twisted up like pretzels.

Yet I see customshops who risk warpage to have an expensive magnum mauser actions color-cased.

shops will also anneal actions to make engraving easier, then risk warpage in the required R_H_T process.

The risks involved in C_C and/or R_H_T are deemed acceptable by a list shops in the USA and Europe
in some cases only in order to accommodate mere cosmetic processes.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:


Yet I see customshops who risk warpage to have an expensive magnum mauser actions color-cased.

shops will also anneal actions to make engraving easier, then risk warpage in the required R_H_T process.

The risks involved in C_C and/or R_H_T are deemed acceptable by a list shops in the USA and Europe
in some cases only in order to accommodate mere cosmetic processes.

Yup. I have had actions re-heat treated too. I also flute barrels and octagon them on a regular basis.

I also tell the customer before I start:"If the barrel warps I can straighten it, or you can buy another barrel I will charge you for the second instal and we will start again."

I also guaranty dimensions to SAMMI specs and cosmetics. But I don't guaranty accuracy. If it does not shoot to your expectations, you buy another barrel and I will charge you for a second barrel instal and we will start, again!

If the customer is willing to pay and take the risk, I will do whatever he wants. No problem.

quote:

Originally posted by speerchucker30x378:


Yup. I have had actions re-heat treated too....

....If the customer is willing to pay and take the risk, I will do whatever he wants. No problem.

When I received quotes for new barrelled actions(magnum mausers) from H&W with C_C,
they did not indicate[* a condition] where I would be up for the cost of new actions if they seriously warped during the C_C treatment.

Even when I met with Otto Weiss personally, and we came to the subject of C_C ,
he didn't express any concerns about warpage or me potentially having to foot the bill.

Tells me they are rather confident in the success rate of the C_C process.

Does Purdey, H&H or WR charge the customer the heavy additional cost-
should the optional C_C process crack the receiver of the customers ordered SxS?

Trax; I don't think you quite caught up to the subject of the OP's post and the subsequent discussion. Nobody except yourself was talking about newly manufactured rifles offered by the manufacturing company. They were, in fact, discussing gunsmiths' working on clients' firearms of different pedigrees. I would definitely expect to pay dearly for this type of work at my risk and would also expect a charge for additional work to bring the rifle back to shooting condition if the work failed. That's a "no-brainer."

quote:

Originally posted by A7drvr:
.. Nobody except yourself was talking about newly manufactured rifles offered by the manufacturing company.
They were, in fact, discussing gunsmiths' working on clients' firearms of different pedigrees....

Whats the diff. between ordering a barrelled mauser action with C_C from Germany
(vs)
giving the same work order to a custom smith in the US?

Unless I am mistaken, they both involve a gunsmith(s) working-on/building the identical customer order.

---

quote:

I would definitely expect to pay dearly for this type of work at my risk and would also expect a charge for additional work
to bring the rifle back to shooting condition if the work failed. That's a "no-brainer."

iF a fellow just managed to finally afford an order for his long dreamed of H&H or Purdey SxS,
and 2 yrs into build process his highly engraved sidelock cracks in the receiver area during the C_C process,
what happens then?

...Does he get additionally billed for a replacement sideLock receiver, engraving, and all the other work involved
to bring the rifle back to the stage it was at prior to the crack?

When I was at SCI Reno, I spoke to the Turnbull Co. about C_C on a magnum mauser,
they were not keen on the idea at all......Thats about as straight from the Horses Mouth as one can get.

yet,
Many high level gun builders in Europe don't seem shy of exposing very expensive bolt rifles,
SxS shotguns and SxS rifles to the potential risks of optional application of C_C

NOTE: ITs not really just about C_C , I simply use it as one example regarding this thread topic discussion
of exposing an action to processes,( be it R_H_T for strength, or just or C_C for appearance.)
Either way, both processes have 'potential' to go wrong.

So the Question that arises:
-whats the real world propensity for serious distortion/warp in the R_H_T or C_C process
if done by experienced trusted service providers?

Well hopefully you would have better results than I did.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...201089691#1201089691


It would be a nice topic for someone that has successfully done it without pinholes, inclusions in the weld zone and warping...... with lots of closeup photos and tips.

.
A lot of the time when you are working with that old, crappy steel its sometimes best to just hang up the TIG and go back to the oxyacetylene torch with a carburizing flame and do it that way. With acetylene you can keep the temperature to a minimum and when you get one of those craters you can lasso it with the flame and turn it inside out. The TIG is much nicer and quicker but it demands good material. Welding that old WWII crap that was smelted with bits of rust, sand and other impurities floating around in it can be a nightmare. The old ways may not be as fast but they can be a lot more forgiving.

It's very convenient to blame the steel but problems with TIG welding usually come back to operator/equipment error. I know from 20 years in the game. Would I go back to the oxy torch? Never.
As for Mausers made from "crappy steel"? From my experience they weld quite well.

For the most part those early Mausers were made with a simple steel like 1020 which was case hardened. My 1943 M98 had spotty hardness so I had it re-HT and their process was OK to my thinking.
Todays actions are usually 4140 or , for CCH, 8620. Both very different from 1020.

Mete, could you explain what you mean by spotty hardness?
Might that have been selective hardening of the critical areas while leaving the rest un cased?

quote:

Originally posted by metal:
It's very convenient to blame the steel but problems with TIG welding usually come back to operator/equipment error. I know from 20 years in the game. Would I go back to the oxy torch? Never.
As for Mausers made from "crappy steel"? From my experience they weld quite well.

I have been welding with TIG for about 20 years as well. I would never go back to gas for general welding either. But when certain materials exhibit certain characteristics time after time. I tend to reevaluate what I'm doing and pursue a different avenue that works with a higher degree of success. Rather than fight with something the book says should work. Even though it doesn't.

To each their own.

quote:

Originally posted by metal:
It's very convenient to blame the steel but problems with TIG welding usually come back to operator/equipment error. I know from 20 years in the game. Would I go back to the oxy torch? Never.
As for Mausers made from "crappy steel"? From my experience they weld quite well.

Did you read the entire thread I posted?
And look at the experimenting photos?

If so I documented that multiple passes or heat cycles created the porous conditions.
I tried and listed many solutions in the thread and none worked.

Yet I was also able to weld 1018 at the same time, same conditions, same technique many passes without any problems.

So, what other solutions would you have tried Mr Tig?

Actually there would have been one trick that you could have tried Doug that might have helped. I noticed that you started with an autogenous weld which is fine to bridge the gap between the two parts and weld the core.

After that I assume that you melded the filler rod and the target material as is commonly done. What I often do when welding Zimbabwe Death Steel is to weld backwards. I get a puddle of filler rod started and then move the torch backwards keeping the arc on the filler material and not on the target material and keep melting filler rod to just fall into the trench and fuse without blending the target material into it to much.

It's very unorthodox and creates cold joints but it's a low strength area anyway so who gives a ratz azz as long as it comes out pit free. Hard to explain but its sort of the same principal as building up the head of a nail. You're just piling material on top rather than blending and fusing. As long as you have a good autogenous weld at the start for strength, you're just back-filling a ditch. A good pre-heat will help with this sort of butcher welding.

It's been known to get me out of the odd jam. So when everything else has failed, give it a try.

That is sort of what I stumbled upon.

I did lots of experimenting on the diced up receiver once I finally gave up thinking the receiver would be salvaged.

Basically 1 fusion pass, then blob 3.5% nickle rod (3.5% seems to absorb the crud) on a 2nd pass and make it a big blob, because there is no going back and welding anymore to fix up any imperfections after it is cleaned up.

That 3rd heating is simply the cancerous kiss of death.

I am going to try shortening again, but I haven't found a suitable bare receiver that is semi messed up and cheap, but not so pitted up or over Bubba'ed that it is worth the effort.


If anyone one has a likely candidate, PM me.

I shortened about 10 or more of them and I have welded the stripper clip and thumb slot full on many more. Plus a lot of Bubba drill and taps. I also have worked with about 5 or 6 other gunsmiths over the course of my torment and everything is peachy until you get away from welding on Remington 700s. Then things seem to go down hill and spiral out of control in a big hurry. I'm sure there is someone out there that can weld aluminum to steel with a brass filler rod and a buzz box. But that guy aint me.

Doug, I followed your thread with interest and shared your frustration. I apologise for not jumping in with more suggestions to help you out. The only thing I would have said is that you were running everything way too hot. Not to mention the other 20 or so variables which can come into play.

The receiver was destroyed long before I ever got it, that is why I called it a Junker VZ.

2nd I have taken welding classes and have welded as a hobbyist for for almost 40 years.
But you aren't going to learn unconventional welding techniques on unusual steels such as Rod's trench filling or the semi "spot welding" that you recommended without trying it on an actual receiver.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Well, I don't know if that is really possible.

I've not come across two 98's that acted exactly the same to one welding technique.

In the action mentioned, I would have tried to "pulse"the weld..almost like spot welding. My unproven theory is that the slight intermittent cooling helps to keep the carbon from getting sucked into the puddle.

It works for me.....sometimes

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by A7drvr:
.. Nobody except yourself was talking about newly manufactured rifles offered by the manufacturing company.
They were, in fact, discussing gunsmiths' working on clients' firearms of different pedigrees....

Whats the diff. between ordering a barrelled mauser action with C_C from Germany
(vs)
giving the same work order to a custom smith in the US?

Unless I am mistaken, they both involve a gunsmith(s) working-on/building the identical customer order.

---

quote:

I would definitely expect to pay dearly for this type of work at my risk and would also expect a charge for additional work
to bring the rifle back to shooting condition if the work failed. That's a "no-brainer."

iF a fellow just managed to finally afford an order for his long dreamed of H&H or Purdey SxS,
and 2 yrs into build process his highly engraved sidelock cracks in the receiver area during the C_C process,
what happens then?

...Does he get additionally billed for a replacement sideLock receiver, engraving, and all the other work involved
to bring the rifle back to the stage it was at prior to the crack?

Trax are you serious? You really don't get the difference here?!

OK, let me explain it to you: When buying something brand new the customer NEVER takes the risk pre-delivery. If the manufacturer screws up an order they eat the cost of labor and materials and produce what was ordered.

On the other hand, if a customer supplied his own rifle or action, asked a gunsmith or other process provider to perform a certain specific operation, and if the risk was explained, then there is some sharing of the risk.

How much? I don't know... that is negotiable I guess.

quote:

Originally posted by montea6b:

Trax are you serious? You really don't get the difference here?!

OK, let me explain it to you: When buying something brand new the customer NEVER takes the risk pre-delivery.
If the manufacturer screws up an order they eat the cost of labor and materials and produce what was ordered.

On the other hand, if a customer supplied his own rifle or action, asked a gunsmith or other process provider to perform a certain specific operation,
and if the risk was explained, then there is some sharing of the risk.

How much? I don't know... that is negotiable I guess.

WHO supplies a donor action, say a 1909 [ be it me or the shop doing the build] for a $40, 000 mauser build
does not determine/has nothing to do with whether the thing badly warps following the R_H_T OR C_C process.
Either way, the customer is expecting a newly ordered & delivered $40,000 rifle.

I can't see a custom smith having vastly different policies on his liabilities for costs(in the event of a screw-up),
simply because he supplied the donor 1909 instead of me,

WHY?...because the problem did not arise because of who supplied the suitable donor 1909 action,
instead it arose due to something dire happening in the R_H_T or C_C process.

quote:

OK, let me explain it to you: When buying something brand new the customer NEVER takes the risk pre-delivery.
If the manufacturer screws up an order they eat the cost of labor and materials and produce what was ordered.

SO if the optional C_C process I specified screws-up[cracks] my extensively engraved SxS Purdey receiver,
ALL the additional costs then incurred to supply my new firearm as orig. ordered, is all on Purdeys chin?
-You know that for a FACT?

IF H&H accepts my order for a NEW bolt rifle( typically based on an old reworked mauser action)
Do they cop all the costs if it goes to shit in the R_H_T or C_C process?

if I ask a premier rifle smith in the US to build me a reworked mauser just like a H&H,
does he also cop any H_T mishaps and any other associated costs, for the NEW rifle I ordered from him?

Gosh Trax. If I had known we were on fantasy island and you were going to be paying me $40,000 USD, I would have fully guaranteed it including accuracy and welded up as many old, junky Mausers as it took.

But if you happen to be one of the low lifes that wants a $5,000 rifle then I'm afraid you will have to assume all risks on components and accuracy. I will however still guaranty cosmetics "to the best of my abilities" and dimensions to SAMMI specs.

Pretty straight forward really. Your gun, your commissioning custom work, you take the risk. You order a custom from me and I deliver you a new gun, I take all the risk. Some processes have an inherent amount of risk in them and try as we might, things can and do go wrong. It is the nature of the beast. Most clients fully understand this.

quote:

Originally posted by metal:
It's very convenient to blame the steel but problems with TIG welding usually come back to operator/equipment error. I know from 20 years in the game. Would I go back to the oxy torch? Never.
As for Mausers made from "crappy steel"? From my experience they weld quite well.

Tell me more about TiG welding.....it sounds kinda new

Ted, it's not new, best you google it up.

quote:

Originally posted by speerchucker30x378:
Gosh Trax. and you were going to be paying me $40,000 USD,
I would have fully guaranteed it including accuracy and welded up as many old, junky Mausers as it took.

Well theres the difference,
where you would foolishly fuss to weld together old junk mausers for a serious $40k job,..another smith would instead use a new manufacture modern alloy magnum mauser unit.

quote:

But if you happen to be one of the low lifes that wants a $5,000 rifle ,,,

So you are telling AR that your typical client base are lowlifes.

quote:

....you will have to assume all risks on components and accuracy. I will however still guaranty cosmetics..

That tells me straight away, that you are not the kind of smith I would choose,
simply because I much prefer achieving accuracy over cosmetics on a limited budget.

quote:

If I had known we were on fantasy island

what is fantasy island to you, is a comfortable reality to others.
There are a number people even on just AR alone, who can throw $40k around no sweat, and much more if they wanted to.

Metal , The action is a 1943 Oberndorf M98 .I tested the hardness at various parts of the receiver .Some arteas were soft , some hard so I had to assume that the case was different in different places. So off to the HT place where they explained exactly what their HT practice was . That suited me. Still have it after years as my primary deer rifle.

Well Trax. You're right there probably are a lot of people on AR that have dropped a lot of money on some very nice firearms. I see people just like them all the time.

I wouldn't get to upset and worry about all this to much.

I'm pretty sure I probably wouldn't work for you. I see lots of people with big ideas, big talk and no backing every day.

Money talks. Bullshit walks.

quote:

Originally posted by metal:
Ted, it's not new, best you google it up.

sounds interesting

I wish I knew how to weld and heat treat....it sounds cool

Trax, have you ever had anything nice to say?

Ever?

TiG welders and Metallurgist....what great company this thread supports

Astonishing

quote:

Originally posted by speerchucker30x378:
Well Trax. You're right there probably are a lot of people on AR that have dropped a lot of money on some very nice firearms. I see people just like them all the time.

I wouldn't get to upset and worry about all this to much.

I'm pretty sure I probably wouldn't work for you. I see lots of people with big ideas, big talk and no backing every day.

Money talks. Bullshit walks.