Gentlemen, I didn't know where else to post this. My situation is as follows. I went shooting one day, used factory ammunition, and didn't police up my brass "a" for quite a while. I noticed some funny looking pieces of brass and upon further examination noticed that many of them had split necks and shoulders, also one had lost its primer. Never having used this type of factory ammo before I didn't check each piece as I would a reloaded round.
My reloads, case "b", as well as like cased "b" factory ammo, were also fired that same day from the same rifle with none of the problems associated with case "a". I saved the remaining rounds and brass from "a". Upon further examination, some necks of the loaded rounds were cracked as well.
Naturally, I wrote the company "a" about this situation and after a time I recieved a letter. I will quote the only relavant paragraph,"As I am sure you realize, an investigation cannot be conducted without the firearm and the ammunition involved being made available to us. Therefore we are requesting that your gun and any remaining ammunition (both live and fired rounds) from the same lot of ammunition be returned to us via United Parcel Service to the following address......""Once your gun and ammunition are recieved they will be sent to our quality assurance department for a complete examination. After the examination is complete you will recieve a formal letter with a report of our findings."

Well, how would I ship it without a FFL and what are they going to do to my gun? How do I protect my personal possessions in a situation such as this. It (the letter) just seems flippant and off the cuff. Has anyone here had a similar experience? How did you handle it and what was the outcome, was it handled professionally and to your satisfaction? The cal. is 22-250, the rifle is a custom M98 that I have a good bit of money stuck into.

Looking forward to some input.
Thanks, Alan

It seems that only one lot is cracked and it's cracked out of the box so it's not your gun.

Take the ammo back to the store and get your money back. Write the company with the lot # and tell them where their defective ammo is.

Do not send them your rifle under any circumstances. They crack stuff don't they.

How about some more details? What brand, caliber etc.

Well I sure as hell wouldn’t send them my firearm if your not having any problems with other manufacture’s cases! Box up the defective Brass and loaded rounds you have and send them if you sure there has been no damage to your firearm. I believe at this point, if were you I have would have the rifle inspected if I suspected any damage. If that be the case save defective Brass and loaded rounds and rifle and contact a lawer!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Carnivore:
Well, how would I ship it without a FFL and what are they going to do to my gun? How do I protect my personal possessions in a situation such as this.

---

Federal law does NOT require you to hold an FFL if shipping your firearm interstate to a licensee (FFL holder). Federal law also does NOT allow a licensee (FFL holder) to confiscate your firearm without just recompense.

Sounds like to me they need to examine their "quality assurance dept.", not your rifle! No way would I send them my rifle, their shipping dept may be worse than their reloading dept! I will have to say that "nobody's perfect", but if the necks are cracked before you shoot them, why would they suspect your rifle? kg

Your issue is with the manufacturer, not the retail store.
Don't go back to the store and demand your money, they will not give it to you without a big hassle.
Write a letter, or better yet call them and demand to speak with someone of importance.

-Spencer

If you are saying that new unfired ammo has cracked necks that means that they did not anneal the brass as they should have .The resulting cracks technically are due to 'stress corrosion cracking' This is a QC problem , send back the cracked brass , ask for replacement . Don't send them your gun...

"They" told you to send your rifle to "them" for examination !!!

Too Funny.

Just post the manufacturer , whats the big secret.

I have had som winchester brass crack at the neck . Its bad brass . Send it back and they will send you twice as much new brass.

I would take it back to the store where you got it. He is my contact and I will let him deal with the company or distributor. I do not want to get in the middle of that argument. My gunshop owner would refund my money and deal with the issue. If yours will not, I would find one that will stand up for you and not for his supplier.

I had some Winchester 454 factory ammo that was splitting cases lengthwise and radially when shot in my new Taurus RB. I emailed Winchester and they requested that I send the ammo back. I sent it back and they sent me some Winchester Bucks coupons good for any Winchester ammunition products. They more than compensated me for the ammo and shipping.
I never did hear back what the problem was though.
I say get your gun checked for damage. If it's good, then keep some of the fired and new ammo and send the rest back.
If it is damaged, send part of the ammo back along with a detailed letter and chamber cast from the gun smith. Tell them what you want and that you will return the rest when they meet your reasonable requests.
I think it would be better to start off nice and see if you can get some help that way. I don't think I would send them my rifle though.

Sounds to me like it is Winchester and they still have problems with their annealing process.

Same problem I had with above manufacturer. Won't but there brass and won't shoot their loaded ammo.

Had cases splitting the full length on 44 Mag. Can you imagine what would of happened if I wasn't shooting a Ruger?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Carnivore:
Has anyone here had a similar experience? How did you handle it and what was the outcome, was it handled professionally and to your satisfaction?

---

I haven't personally had a firearm damaged by bad factory loads, though I have had some defective rounds in the past with split necks and cracked heads (some Winchester and some Remington). I just shitcanned them. However, I have an acquaintance at a local gun club who had a shotgun barrel damaged by some Federal loads about ten years ago. I can't recall exactly what the loads were, but he had his 12 gauge Auto 5 barrel bulged. They advised him to return the remaining shells and the barrel for examination. Within a couple of weeks they sent him a new barrel (from Browning) and coupons for more ammunition.

There were also these recent posting on Subguns concering some PMC ammo and damage to a guy's high-dollar transferables (probably worth more than your rifle):

http://www.subguns.com/boards/mgmsgarchive.cgi?read=416309

http://www.subguns.com/boards/mgmsgarchive.cgi?read=427329

The bad brass was Winchester 22-250. The woman I spoke with today was helpful. I told her I was hesitant to send her the rifle. They are sending me a prepaid UPS voucher or something. She actually volunteered the info that it was most likely improperly annealed, and the blown primer was from a soft case. My concern was that the split necks could have somehow cut the throat on the rifle. I don't know if this was possible or not. She informed me that 22-250's are barrel burners and that my throat was probably washed out anyhow. The rep claimed that they rebarrel all of their test guns at 500 rounds or less due to erosion. That part doesn't sound right to me at all.
The reason I didn't just come out and trash Winchester is because they deserve a chance to make things right and after todays conversation I am confident it will be handled properly. I will post a follow up upon resolution.
Thanks for everyones input.
Alan

1: this is reasonable.. you called with a problem, and they want to fix it
2: do not, under ANY circumstances, ship the ammo WITH the rifle.. this will get you 5 years
3: ammo can NOT be sent USPS.. EVER.. period... don't even bother discussing this. It must be shipped UPS ORM-D small arms ammo
4: they will take twice as long as they promised
5: since this sounds like a MAJOR maker, that owns three major labels, they will work with you.
6:You are shipping your gun to a ffl gunsmith. THEY own the license, not an issue. When it comes back, it's being returned from licenses servicing.

You will get a post card from them, with a tracking number. Call the day you get it, and ask for an ETA.. write the date you called and the date promised on the card. then put it on your fridge.

call 2 weeks before promised date, for a status update.


jeffe

quote:

---

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
2: do not, under ANY circumstances, ship the ammo WITH the rifle.. this will get you 5 years

---

This is untrue. Please point out the BATFE regulation if you disagree.

quote:

---

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
3: ammo can NOT be sent USPS.. EVER.. period... don't even bother discussing this. It must be shipped UPS ORM-D small arms ammo

---

According to his last post, Winchester is sending him a prepaid UPS shipping label. I'm not sure why he would consider shipping USPS. And an ORM-D label is not required, particularly in this case, as a firearm is also being shipped.

I would have a gunsmith carefully inspect the gun first, and give me a written statement of its present condition. If his verdict is that it has been damaged by split necks, I would enclose a copy of his report with the gun.

Send them half the defective brass. Hold the other half.

If you do those things, and let them know that is what you have done, they will very careful to make sure you are well taken care of.

They aren't going to give you a hard time. They just want to make sure they have their ducks in a row before they go spend time on their production process, and they want to make things right for you.

22-250's are wonderful varminters, but are also notorious barrel burners. 500 shots to burnout seems pretty small, but I wouldn't plan on much more than a couple of thousand rounds, either.

New Guy,

Don't take this as an assualt or insult. You asked valid questions and/or made valid points that ammount to questions, and I want to answer them, without ANY wiggle room. Simply breaking these regulations can result in jail AND the permenant removal of rights to even own a gun. Just because it has been done before, doesn't mean it's legal.. much like speeding, with worse consequences.


Overall shipping requirements
http://www.atf.treas.gov/regulations/27cfr178.html

section Sec. 178.31

the USPS has determined that shipping them together constitutes a LOADED firearm... as they have determined that a package of ammo and a gun is readily loadable...

UPS regulations on shipping guns
https://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/prepare/guidelines/firearms.html

Ammunition cannot be included in your packages that contain firearms (including handguns)



relating to orm-d .. hazardous materials

http://frwebgate1.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate.cgi?WAISdocID=006868449175+1+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve

search for Sec. 172.101 Hazardous Materials Table

Scroll down to page 147, look down about 23 lines

Cartridges, small arms ORM-D 30 kg gross 30 kg gross A .......
arms.


When you scroll down a few more lines, you see a misleading entry... read the text.. it refers sporting arms back to that line.


Since i JUST shipped I rifle via UPS and it was REDICULOUSLY damaged, and UPS is known for damaging firearms and not paying the insurance (this is commonly known) I purpose the opposing question, why would anyone with ANY shipping experience EVER consider shipping a rifle UPS


I don't mind, at all, begining questioned on facts, just want to make certain that I share some of my accumulated knowledge, as life is far to short to be able to all the mistakes and learn from them.


I'll be happy to answer any more questions you have, but for fully authorative answers on the USPS, you can certainly call your local postmaster, who will tell you that under NO circumstance will the USPS ship, legally, ammunition.

jeffe

quote:

---

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Simply breaking these regulations can result in jail AND the permenant removal of rights to even own a gun. Just because it has been done before, doesn't mean it's legal.. much like speeding, with worse consequences.

---

Absolutely not. Where do you come up with this nonsense? It's not in the BATFE regulations.

quote:

---

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
the USPS has determined that shipping them together constitutes a LOADED firearm... as they have determined that a package of ammo and a gun is readily loadable...

---

This is incorrect. The DMM makes absolutely no such claim, other than to state that loaded ammunition is unmailable. Please cite a reference from the DMM if you believe otherwise. Further, the original poster was invited to ship his rifle and ammunition via UPS: A CONTRACT CARRIER. The USPS has absolutely no oversight of contract carrier operations.

quote:

---

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
UPS regulations on shipping guns
https://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/prepare/guidelines/firearms.html

_ Ammunition cannot be included in your packages that contain firearms (including handguns) _

---

Uh, UPS is a PRIVATE company. Violating UPS rules does NOT constitute a violation of any law. Please provide a cite if you believe otherwise.

quote:

---

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
_ relating to orm-d .. hazardous materials _

http://frwebgate1.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate.cgi?WAISdocID=006868449175+1+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve

search for _ Sec. 172.101 Hazardous Materials Table _

Scroll down to page 147, look down about 23 lines

_ Cartridges, small arms ORM-D 30 kg gross 30 kg gross A .......
arms. _


When you scroll down a few more lines, you see a misleading entry... read the text.. it refers sporting arms back to that line.

---

Perhaps you should read the BATFE regulations on shipping firearms and ammunition a little further prior to posting. If a firearm is being shipped, it cannot have a label placed on it that would identify it as such. If ammuntition is being shipped with the firearm, which is perfectly legal, and it had an ORM-D sticker, which is not required, that would be pushing the limits of the law somewhat.

quote:

---

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Since i JUST shipped I rifle via UPS and it was REDICULOUSLY damaged, and UPS is known for damaging firearms and not paying the insurance (this is commonly known) I purpose the opposing question, why would anyone with ANY shipping experience EVER consider shipping a rifle UPS

---

I wouldn't have any idea. I ship all long guns USPS and all handguns and ammunition Federal Express. Most firearms manufacturers don't seem to share this opinion.

quote:

---

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
I'll be happy to answer any more questions you have, but for fully authorative answers on the USPS, you can certainly call your local postmaster, who will tell you that under NO circumstance will the USPS ship, legally, ammunition.

---

Perhaps I can answer your questions on how to correctly ship firearms and ammunition. I do this on a weekly basis.

Take a gander at this. These are the ACTUAL BATFE regulations concerning firearms shipment:

§ 922. Unlawful acts
(a) It shall be unlawful -
(2) for any importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector licensed under the
provisions of this chapter to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer,
licensed dealer, or licensed collector, except that -
(A) this paragraph and subsection (b)(3) shall not be held to preclude a
licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed
collector from returning a firearm or replacement firearm of the same kind and
type to a person from whom it was received; and this paragraph shall not be
held to preclude an individual from mailing a firearm owned in compliance with
Federal, State, and local law to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer,
licensed dealer, or licensed collector;

(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be
delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in
interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed
manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other
container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the
carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that
any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported
aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate
or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the
pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the
duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No
common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written
notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.

§ 926A. Interstate transportation of firearms
Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a
State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise
prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall
be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may
lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully
possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is
unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily
accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such
transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment
separate from the driver's compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained
in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.
(Added Pub.L. 99-360, § 1(a), July 8, 1986, 100 Stat. 766.)

§ 178.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.
(a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any
common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or
foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other
container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written
notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported
or shipped:
Provided, That any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm
or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for
movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver
said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain,
conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration
of that trip without violating any provision of this part.
(b) No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label,
tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package,
luggage, or other container indicating that such package, luggage, or
other container contains a firearm.
(c) No common or contract carrier shall transport or deliver in
interstate or foreign commerce any firearm or ammunition with knowledge or
reasonable cause to believe that the shipment, transportation, or receipt
thereof would be in violation of any provision of this part:
Provided, however, That the provisions of this paragraph shall not
apply in respect to the transportation of firearms or ammunition in
in -bond shipment under Customs laws and regulations.
(d) No common or contract carrier shall knowingly deliver in
interstate or foreign commerce any firearm without obtaining written
acknowledgement of receipt from the recipient of the package or other
container in which there is a firearm : Provided, That this paragraph
shall not apply with respect to the return of a firearm to a passenger who
places firearms in the carrier's custody for the duration of the trip.
[33 FR 18555, Dec. 14, 1968 . Redesignated at 40 FR 16385, Apr. 15, 1975,
and amended by T.D. ATF-354, 59 FR 7112, Feb. 14, 1994; T.D. ATF-361, 60
FR 10786, Feb. 27, 1995]

I don't see a single thing in there that precludes ammunition from being shipped with an unloaded firearm.

New Guy,
No worries.. Ship how you please, as you asked for the regs... and if you read on the ORM-d regs for shipping ammo, again, toquote you, read further in the reqs.

There is a small quandary...

since small arms ammo, up to 30 KG MUST have an orm-d label to be shipped legally, then you would then be forced to put a small arms ammo label on your combined firearms
and ammo?


Since the USPS WILL NOT UNDER ANY LEGAL CIRCUMSTANCES ship loaded ammuntion (and, while a corporation, their rules ARE laws.. think differently, then ask yourself why postal inspectors are armed)

and UPS and FED will not allow you to ship together...


Please don't tell me you ship them together, knowing that if there was ANY damage to the items that the common carrier would REFUSE the insurance claim?

I often find on this site that what I have thought of as a good fact could turn out to be a happenstance.

I hope that this could be a slight information point for you, that shipping them combined is either illegal via USPS, or totally voids your insurance, as you void shipping terms, with UPS and FEDEX

jeffe

New Guy
the regs of protocol for shipping ammuntion are covered in
Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 49, Volume 2]
[Revised as of October 1, 2001]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 49CFR173.242]


Thanks for asking.. there is no mistaking that ORM-D is required for ammo.

last thing I have to say in the matter.

jeffe

quote:

---

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
since small arms ammo, up to 30 KG MUST have an orm-d label to be shipped legally, then you would then be forced to put a small arms ammo label on your combined firearms
and ammo?

---

This is not true.

quote:

---

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Since the USPS WILL NOT UNDER ANY LEGAL CIRCUMSTANCES ship loaded ammuntion (and, while a corporation, their rules ARE laws.. think differently, then ask yourself why postal inspectors are armed)

---

Uh, why are you caught up on the USPS? The original poster was invited to ship his firearm via the UPS: A CONTRACT CARRIER. You've been the only poster who has yet suggested using the USPS. Further, the USPS is NOT a corporation, but a FEDERAL AGENCY. Would you like me to direct you to the correct information regarding their status?

quote:

---

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
and UPS and FED will not allow you to ship together...

---

Please read the BATFE regulations posted. As long as the shipment is to a licensee, there is absolutely NO legal requirement to disclose that the package is a firearm.

quote:

---

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Please don't tell me you ship them together, knowing that if there was ANY damage to the items that the common carrier would REFUSE the insurance claim?

---

Are you a tattler?

quote:

---

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
I often find on this site that what I have thought of as a good fact could turn out to be a happenstance.

---

You're in luck, I posted the BATFE regulations concerning firearms shipments. They're pretty clear.

quote:

---

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
I hope that this could be a slight information point for you, that shipping them combined is either illegal via USPS, or totally voids your insurance, as you void shipping terms, with UPS and FEDEX

jeffe

---

I hope that you fully understand the correct and legal means of shipping firearms now. I'd hate for you to continue spreading misinformation.

I believe you are able to send ammo with an UNLOADED weapon in the same package. No FFL is required as long as you are sending it in for inspection or repair. I would get a second opinion as to the condition of the firearm BEFORE sending it to the manufacturer. Get delivery confirmation and tracking # and pack it well. Save half the bad ammo, send the rest. Most reputable manufacturers will more than compensate you for your hassle.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Flippy:
I believe you are able to send ammo with an UNLOADED weapon in the same package.

---

You are absolutely correct.

Here's what the Domestic Mail Manual (DMM) says about shipping long guns:

3.0 RIFLES AND SHOTGUNS
Although unloaded rifles and shotguns not precluded by 1.1e and 1.2 are mailable,
mailers must comply with the Gun Control Act of 1968, Public Law 90-618, 18
USC 921, et seq., and the rules and regulations promulgated thereunder, 27 CFR
178, as well as state and local laws. The mailer may be required by the USPS to
establish, by opening the parcel or by written certification, that the gun is unloaded
and not precluded by 1.1e.

4.0 LEGAL OPINIONS ON MAILING FIREARMS
Postmasters are not authorized to give opinions on the legality of any shipment of
rifles or shotguns. Contact the nearest office of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco
and Firearms for further advice.

Take note of 4.0: "Postmasters are not authorized to give opinions on the legality of any shipment of rifles or shotguns." This contradicts jeffeosso's comment regarding seeking advice from a postmaster. The BATFE has a LEGAL DEPARTMENT (not the local BATFE office) who makes rulings and issues opinions on this.

Note there is absolutely no mention of any term of punishment for violating these rules. Violation typically results in forfeiture of property, not a felony conviction or jail time. Life goes on and the sky does not fall.

Concerning the USPS being a "corporation:"

The United States Postal Service® is an independent establishment of the Executive Branch of the United States Government. It operates in a businesslike way.

http://www.usps.com/postalhistory/welcome.htm

quote:

---

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
New Guy
the regs of protocol for shipping ammuntion are covered in
Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 49, Volume 2]
[Revised as of October 1, 2001]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 49CFR173.242]


Thanks for asking.. there is no mistaking that ORM-D is required for ammo.

last thing I have to say in the matter.

jeffe

---

This is absolutely incorrect. Small shipments of ammunition are excepted from this.

Wow that was alot of writeing , glad i skipped it and didnt read any of it .

Conorvore... Looks like Winchester has had alot of bad brass in their ammo for a couple years .

Mine I sent back about 1 year ago. They sent the sticker to me too and I sent the 20 pieces of bad brass back and they sent me a 50 peice bag of new brass.

I think I will shoot up the rest of my factory winchester ammo to see if it splits.

It isnt your rifle . It Is bad winchester brass! ! !

quote:

---

Originally posted by GSP7:
Wow that was alot of writeing , glad i skipped it and didnt read any of it .

---

You missed out.

IF you decide to have the rifle examined along with the ammo, have a trustworthy local gunsmith do it, so you still have control over the rifle.

It sounds to me like the factory ammo did not have correctly annealed case necks, the necks were brittle, and cracked from the tension incurred when the bullets were seated. This happens, particularly if the ammo sat around for a few years after it was loaded.

As others have mentioned, if this does not happen with other brands/lot numbers of factory ammo, it is NOT your rifle that's the problem!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Just Some Guy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by GSP7:
Wow that was alot of writeing , glad i skipped it and didnt read any of it .

---

You missed out.

---

Seasame street picture guy,bert or just some guy from OKie Homa....

No ,, I didnt miss out. Ive had my buddy a real estate morgage sweet talker/con man and my superfied bullshit extrodanar nieghbor telling me lies and sweet nothing Bull shit crap for a few weeks straight during our winter weather cabin fever season. My ruber bullshit boots are worn out so I cant indure any lawyer lip flappin' dieorea mumbo jumbo.

Im content working on finishing a stock and listening to my dogs not make any noise

quote:

---

Originally posted by GSP7:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Just Some Guy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by GSP7:
Wow that was alot of writeing , glad i skipped it and didnt read any of it .

---

You missed out.

---

Seasame street picture guy,bert or just some guy from OKie Homa....

No ,, I didnt miss out. Ive had my buddy a real estate morgage sweet talker/con man and by superfied bullshit extrodanar nieghbor telling me lies and sweet nothing Bull shit crap for a few weeks straight during our winter weather cabin fever season. My ruber bullshit boots are worn out so I cant indure any lawyer lip flappin' dieorea mumbo jumbo.

Im content working a finishing a stock and listening to my dogs not make any noise

---

Very eloquent, for someone whose state's claim to fame is their taters.

Hey now, no need to start bashing on Idaho.
You just go on thinking that the only thing in Idaho is taters and we'll keep all the Deer and Elk to ourselves.
Speaking of which, just grilled up a pile of fat Elk steaks last night. They went real good with them taters

Here's your sign:

I was reading my Remington manual this morning and I ran across this.
"WARNING! do not send live or spent shells in your firearm or in the box with the firearm. This is a violation of federal law. If you feel you must send spent shells. Please send them in a separate package and include name , address (with zip code) telephone number, model and serial number of your firearm>"
Interesting.

common sense says "dont invite a problem, they find you easy enough".
why on earth would you want to ship your ammo in the same box as your rifle, regs or not? spend 4 extra minutes and box seperatly. you might save someones life.
woofer

quote:

---

Originally posted by bglenn:
I was reading my Remington manual this morning and I ran across this.
"WARNING! do not send live or spent shells in your firearm or in the box with the firearm. This is a violation of federal law. If you feel you must send spent shells. Please send them in a separate package and include name , address (with zip code) telephone number, model and serial number of your firearm>"
Interesting.

---

Except that's not true. No one has yet produced proof of this alleged "federal law" that addresses this and I doubt you will either. BATFE regulations concerning firearms shipments do not address this and Postal regulations only say that loaded ammunition is unmailable. Further, the BATFE legal department has issued a written opinion that this is perfectly legal.

http://www.atf.treas.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/2000_ref.htm

http://pe.usps.gov/cpim/ftp/manuals/Dmm/dmmtc.pdf

http://pe.usps.gov/cpim/ftp/manuals/dmm/i022.pdf

quote:

---

Originally posted by woofer:
common sense says "dont invite a problem, they find you easy enough".
why on earth would you want to ship your ammo in the same box as your rifle, regs or not? spend 4 extra minutes and box seperatly. you might save someones life.
woofer

---

Except I'm not seeing a problem. Unless he's shipping his rifle via the Postal Service, there is no problem.

I ship firearms on a fairly regular basis, nearly weekly in fact, including Title II items, such as machine guns and suppressors. If you have any questions regarding firearms shipments, just let me know.

Below is a link to a very reputable insurance company that specializes in high-end items, such as custom guns. If you find yourself having to use the monkeys at UPS or Federal Express to ship your custom Model 70, they can write a policy to specifically cover its shipment at a nominal fee.

http://www.collectinsure.com/faqguncollectgen.htm

I also ship and receive firearms on a regular basis, however I rarely send ammo with or without a firearm.

I contacted the local ATF office in Portland and the agent told me that it is OK to ship firearms and/or ammunition to the manufacturer for inspection or repair.

He told me the USPS still considers smokeless powder as an explosive, however as of the gun control act, the ATF does not. He recommended sending them TOGETHER via FedEX or UPS (or USPS if you want to hassle with their bogus explosives paperwork) so as not to get them lost. (Of course the gun will be UNLOADED)

He reminded me Federal law requires you to declare that it is a firearm and fill out whatever paperwork the individual entity requires. Hope this helps.

ATF Portland: 1-503-231-2331

All this bullshit between Jeffe and sesame street guy going back and forth. its kinda like nutin I never herd befour. So much typin, I bet they both missed dinner. I hope they both give it a rest.

quote:

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Originally posted by olcrip:
All this bullshit between Jeffe and sesame street guy going back and forth. its kinda like nutin I never herd befour. So much typin, I bet they both missed dinner. I hope they both give it a rest.

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