quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
If anyone has any nice 1909 Argentines or other nice mauser actions with a little bit of setback and you don't want them anymore let me know. I will pay the postage for you to ship them to me.

It takes some doing but these can be remachined...

I've never done it but all that's needed is a mill and rotary table unless one has a CNC!!

A CNC what? For this type of job a CNC "anything" would be almost useless. Actually trying to program anything "CNC" to remove just enough material would be a waste of time. The job is better suited for a manual lathe and a good set of eyes, or, a CNC lathe in manual mode and a good set of eyes.

quote:

Originally posted by Westpac:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
If anyone has any nice 1909 Argentines or other nice mauser actions with a little bit of setback and you don't want them anymore let me know. I will pay the postage for you to ship them to me.

It takes some doing but these can be remachined...

I've never done it but all that's needed is a mill and rotary table unless one has a CNC!!

A CNC what? For this type of job a CNC "anything" would be almost useless. Actually trying to program anything "CNC" to remove just enough material would be a waste of time. The job is better suited for a manual lathe and a good set of eyes, or, a CNC lathe in manual mode and a good set of eyes.

Maybe he's expecting them to arrive by the thousands.
-Don

quote:

Originally posted by Don Markey:

quote:

Originally posted by Westpac:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
If anyone has any nice 1909 Argentines or other nice mauser actions with a little bit of setback and you don't want them anymore let me know. I will pay the postage for you to ship them to me.

It takes some doing but these can be remachined...

I've never done it but all that's needed is a mill and rotary table unless one has a CNC!!

A CNC what? For this type of job a CNC "anything" would be almost useless. Actually trying to program anything "CNC" to remove just enough material would be a waste of time. The job is better suited for a manual lathe and a good set of eyes, or, a CNC lathe in manual mode and a good set of eyes.

Maybe he's expecting them to arrive by the thousands.
-Don

Don, Too friggin funny.

I think trying to buy up actions with set back to salvage them is an example of false economy.

Better to spend the money up front for a nice 1909 than to buy up ones with setback in hopes of salvaging them. Sure, most if not all could probably be salvaged. However, the amount of time therefore money required would make the end product more expensive. Hell, just the setup time alone would render this excercie too costly.

Here's an idea. Lets say you've got a mauser with set back and there's been considerable time money and effort put into it, and you want to save it, and are willing to put more money into it.
Sombody should engineer a m-98 bolt that covers a range of set back, say back to .025.
The new bolt would have locking lugs .025 longer.
Find a shop with a turing center with live tools.
one of these machines could make the bolt quickly and at a reaonable cost. have them make 30 at a time.
The setback receiver would have it's lug seats remachined, a good maunal setup will be fine here.
The new bolt could be made from 8620 with lugs .025 extra long in back.
The gunsmith could then match the headspace of the chamber by turning the calulated amount needed off the back of the locking lugs of the bolt leaveing a couple extra thousands for lapping.
Lap the new bolt into headspace.
number the bolt to the receiver.

If there are numerous rifles to do, do them as a group, thats the reason for numbering the bolt to the receiver.
Send it all out for re-carb.

It is most likely the safety will be to be refit as the new bolt will change the location of the cocking piece a little.
The extractor will need inspection and possible refitting to the extraction groove of the case.

This is one way to save an otherwise unuseable rifle. It's a second chance to "get it right".

I'd be willing to bet there's a shop out there with a live tool turning center that could make those for 7500. in a 30 qty.
So the bolt body cost 250. weld handle on it and finish it out 130. more
turn the receiver seats so they just clean up a good machinist should be able to get that in 1.5 hours tops so 75. for that.
Match the headspace on the bolt .5 hrs, there's another 25.
Re-carb cost ?
Re-fit safety if needed and check extractor 75. more.
Re-blue ?
Reassemble rifle 1hr, another 75.
Shipping both ways 75. x 2 insured 3rd day both ways.
Thats 780. + recarb and blue say 980 per rifle
980 x 30 = $29,400 - 7500 for bolts = 21900.
Get it all lined up and knock it all out in 3 months, one quarter $7300 a month or more if a guy could do it quicker? Who knows, it all depends on the level of organization. Keeping 30 rifles organized and all taken apart at the same time is something to refine for sure, that in and of itself could be daunting.
I'm not going to do it. Although it could give somebody a job that maybe needs one.
It definately has to be a rifle truly special to it's owner to justify putting an additional 1000. into. A special barrel, reciever
combo, nice wood, etc,etc. to really warrent the rifle as worthy of the whole process. There could be quite a few of these rifles out there that could use this and their owners don't want to change receivers, who knows, I just know what can be done.
Different bolt face sizes will also be factor to consider.
chit chat later
Timan

I think it would be cheaper to just remachine the seats and set back the barrel to headspace. Recarberize and be done. If setting back the barrel causes stock issues, get a new tue turned to match the old one.
-Don

Mr. Dempsey hasnt said how much set back has occured, or even if the lugs have alrady been lapped in. Either way the reciever has already proved to be on the soft side, so if it can be fixed without getting into to much $$$"s I would be sure to have it treated and the bolt also! It is a nice looking action. I didnt read any mention of a barrel or stock being finished with it.

quote:

Originally posted by Westpac:

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
People remachine Remington lug seats all of the time for accuracy purposes. Shouldn't be any different on mausers.

That's why you are an attorney and not a gunsmith. There are big differences.

Malm

Instead of being a smart ass about it, tell us the "big" differences so I can show your reponse to a couple of gunsmiths whom I know who have done this job.

One doesn't have to be an auto mechanic to understand how an engine works, and one doesn't have to be a gunsmith to understand how a mauser action works, and one certainly doesn't have to be an attorney to understand how the law works.

If one takes off all of the hardware from a mauser bolt and puts it in battery in the action one will see that in most cases the lug seats are already "set back" in the sense that there is quite a bit of play there. That is why Peter Paul Mauser desinged the spring assembly in the bolt shroud to pull the bolt back against the lug seats or recesses. If you have a situation where a little bit more setback has occured, as long as the spring mechanism is still working to pull those bolt lugs back against the recesses, the action will still work. However, it will not work "properly" if the excess headspace isn't accounted for. So, from what some very experienced smiths have told me, you can reharden the recesses, put on a new barrel, and keep on shooting, or you can remachine the recesses, put on a new barrel, and keep on shooting.

Do you disagree with any of that Malm. If so, exactly what do you disagree with.


Don and ZLR

Its your posts that are too friggin funny. Where do you see where I want to buy a lot of mauser actions with setback? I thought one had to be able to read to be a gunsmith. Didn't I say I would "pay the postgage for them to be sent to me" if somebody didn't want them.

And how would it "cost so much" if a person did them himself? I do know how to run a mill and a lathe?

Too friggin funny!

quote:

Originally posted by Don Markey:
I think it would be cheaper to just remachine the seats and set back the barrel to headspace. Recarberize and be done. If setting back the barrel causes stock issues, get a new tue turned to match the old one.
-Don

The problem is that the Mauser utilizes a "fixed" breech. As the bolt face moves rearward as when removing material from the lugs, the internal breech ring, or, torque shoulder prevents the barrel from being able to close the gap, so after correcting for the excess headspace, you end up with more brass hanging out of the chamber that is unsupported which increases the risk of experiencing a catastrophic case head separation.

The correct thing to do would be to add material "back" to the lug seats. You can't very well do that so Timans idea would be one to seriously consider. What someone could do is make a replacement bolt with enough material on the lugs to allow custom trimming to make up the difference that was lost due to set back. That and reheatreating the action might save some actions

quote:

Originally posted by Westpac:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Don Markey:
I think it would be cheaper to just remachine the seats and set back the barrel to headspace. Recarberize and be done. If setting back the barrel causes stock issues, get a new tue turned to match the old one.
-Don

And pray tell, why couldn't an equal amount be taken off from the internal breech ring, as I have seen done?

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
And pray tell, why couldn't an equal amount be taken off from the internal breech ring, as I have seen done?

Yes, you would have to do what ever was needed to keep the distance the same.

I just bought the action sight unseen. It came with a very clean 1909 bottom and a timeny. If I have to scrap it I figure minus the value of the bottom and trigger I'll be out a hundred bucks plus I have to aquire another action. To the eye the setback looks faint but that's just my eye. I am interested in salvaging it if it's bad. Thanks for the replies it's been informative.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

quote:

Originally posted by Westpac:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Don Markey:
I think it would be cheaper to just remachine the seats and set back the barrel to headspace. Recarberize and be done. If setting back the barrel causes stock issues, get a new tue turned to match the old one.
-Don

And pray tell, why couldn't an equal amount be taken off from the internal breech ring, as I have seen done?

All this work is fine and is doable, but again, cost is the issue. It really only is practical if one has a very nice gun worth salvaging. But even then there are limits and aestheitc considerations to contend with.

Moving the inner ring back means that your barrel will not time properly. Fixing that if possible means that now your barrel and channel will not have the same fit.

Again, the amount of work required on bare actions would not be cost effective for some one hoping to buy a few, fix them, and either use or sell them. Hell, I can do all the work myself but the time invloved equates to lost revenues. In all but a few cases I would simply buy one that is known to not have issues.

On one rather collectible rifle I fixed, the chambering was required to stay the same. So, after I fixed the setback, I found a bolt that had extra distance from lugs to bolt face. I cut the original handle off, welded it to the new bolt,and problem was solved. Otherwise, I would have added material to the bolt face and recut it until proper headspace was attained. Then both bolt and receiver would be carburised.

Timans idea is a good one.

quote:

Originally posted by Westpac:
A CNC what? For this type of job a CNC "anything" would be almost useless. Actually trying to program anything "CNC" to remove just enough material would be a waste of time. The job is better suited for a manual lathe and a good set of eyes, or, a CNC lathe in manual mode and a good set of eyes.

You obviously have little experience with CNC.

I've put entire parts into production in less than an hour from the time I saw the print to the time the first part was done!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
You obviously have little experience with CNC.

I've put entire parts into production in less than an hour from the time I saw the print to the time the first part was done!

You obviously have me confused with someone who gives a rats ass. I don't do production stuff. There is nothing that has come through my shops doors in 30 years that required a computer controlled machine to do the job. If in the future I need to hire a computer to do a particular job that I can't do on my manual machines, then she better have nice tit's and be able to make coffee.

quote:

Originally posted by Westpac:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
You obviously have little experience with CNC.

I've put entire parts into production in less than an hour from the time I saw the print to the time the first part was done!

You obviously have me confused with someone who gives a rats ass. I don't do production stuff. There is nothing that has come through my shops doors in 30 years that required a computer controlled machine to do the job. If in the future I need to hire a computer to do a particular job that I can't do on my manual machines, then she better have nice tit's and be able to make coffee.

Semper Fi

quote:

All this work is fine and is doable, but again, cost is the issue. It really only is practical if one has a very nice gun worth salvaging. But even then there are limits and aestheitc considerations to contend with.

Moving the inner ring back means that your barrel will not time properly. Fixing that if possible means that now your barrel and channel will not have the same fit.

If I read it correctly, the original poster has an action without a barrel. He doens't need to "time" his barrel. He needs to put a new barrel on it.

I would still like somebody to provide (give me) a couple of nice 1909s with lug seat setback. I think a guy could go in there and tig weld the seats, or the lugs on the bolt, remachine them, recarburize, and shoot em. Maybe not worthwhile if one is going to pay a good Gunnie the going rate, but when did anyone ever make any money on custom guns anyway.

As for the posters who say "go out and buy a good action", please tell us where your stash of those Oberndorfs and VZs is located.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

quote:

All this work is fine and is doable, but again, cost is the issue. It really only is practical if one has a very nice gun worth salvaging. But even then there are limits and aestheitc considerations to contend with.

Moving the inner ring back means that your barrel will not time properly. Fixing that if possible means that now your barrel and channel will not have the same fit.

If I read it correctly, the original poster has an action without a barrel. He doens't need to "time" his barrel. He needs to put a new barrel on it.

I would still like somebody to provide (give me) a couple of nice 1909s with lug seat setback. I think a guy could go in there and tig weld the seats, or the lugs on the bolt, remachine them, recarburize, and shoot em. Maybe not worthwhile if one is going to pay a good Gunnie the going rate, but when did anyone ever make any money on custom guns anyway.

As for the posters who say "go out and buy a good action", please tell us where your stash of those Oberndorfs and VZs is located.

The original poster's question had been answered long ago and in fact only had to do with identifying setback, not fixing it.

That latest reply was simply informational.

But, since you know how to operate a lathe and mill and apparently know more than anyone else, consider it my last reply to you.

If you get so easily offended by my finding humor in Don's statement, I feel sorry for you.

As for my "stash', it's in my safe of course. I see very good actions available nearly every time I go to a gunshop. Most are on poorly sported but not dicked with rifles. The kinds where all the butchery was confined to just the barrel.

You are now the sole member of my ignore list.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
I think a guy could go in there and tig weld the seats, or the lugs on the bolt, remachine them, recarburize, and shoot em.

Better get your running shoes on, I hear an ambulance approaching...

And pray tell, do you usually wait to hear the sound of a starter pistol, or do you launch yourself from the curb the minute the ambulance comes into view?

quote:

Originally posted by Westpac:

quote:

Originally posted by Don Markey:
I think it would be cheaper to just remachine the seats and set back the barrel to headspace. Recarberize and be done. If setting back the barrel causes stock issues, get a new tue turned to match the old one.
-Don

The problem is that the Mauser utilizes a "fixed" breech. As the bolt face moves rearward as when removing material from the lugs, the internal breech ring, or, torque shoulder prevents the barrel from being able to close the gap, so after correcting for the excess headspace, you end up with more brass hanging out of the chamber that is unsupported which increases the risk of experiencing a catastrophic case head separation.

The correct thing to do would be to add material "back" to the lug seats. You can't very well do that so Timans idea would be one to seriously consider. What someone could do is make a replacement bolt with enough material on the lugs to allow custom trimming to make up the difference that was lost due to set back. That and reheatreating the action might save some actions

Thanks, I knew I was missing something.
-Don

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

Don and ZLR

Its your posts that are too friggin funny. Where do you see where I want to buy a lot of mauser actions with setback? I thought one had to be able to read to be a gunsmith. Didn't I say I would "pay the postgage for them to be sent to me" if somebody didn't want them.

And how would it "cost so much" if a person did them himself? I do know how to run a mill and a lathe?

Too friggin funny!

No the funny thing is my joke and it was a joke (see the smilely face) wasn't even directed at you. It was about CNC'ing. Do you even read these posts or do you just automaticaly think everyone is out to get you. No wonder people poke fun at you, it's just so easy to get you upset.
-Don

ZLR

Since I am now on your ignore list you won't see this, but I don't claim to know more than anyone else. I admit that almost every single bit of knowledge I possess about guns came from my learning it from someone else, inluding a few things I learned from reading your posts, and Westpacs posts, and a whole host of other posts here on AR. ONe things is for sure and that is that not all of the "Experts" and Gunsmiths here on AR always agree on things!

Nor do I claim that what I propose will work. I would just like to try it and see for myself if it would work for me.

Malm

Since you seem to know so much about it, "Better get your running shoes on, I hear an ambulance approaching...", please tell me your experience with it when you tried it. What exactly happened, what cartridge were you using, which did you weld, the lugs or the seats, did you have it heat treated aftewards, by who, etc. I would like to know your first hand experience so I don't make the same mistakes.

Dempsey,
If it were mine I would send it to blanchards after I lapped the lugs and when I barreled it you could turn a boss on the breach face to make up the setback(a few thousands). I have done a couple of mine and the are very good and accurate with no further increase in setback and one is a 264 win mag I havve shot 500 rounds at least
Good for you on finding a nice action

I have a 1909 Argentine mauser modified to a 375/338. It has been heat treated. I had someone check the headspace a few years ago and they said it was OK. However, normal loads are hot in new brass, so I fire form, and then load up to higher levels. I'm using 73 gr H4350 under a 270 Hornady spirepoint.

This evening after reading this discussion I decided to check the headspace using shim stock. I found that the bolt will close on new unfired brass with a pile up of up to .
.020 inch of shim stock between the brass and the bolt face.

Given the fire form procedure, is this a dangerous situation? And if so, what should be done about it?

quote:

Originally posted by PRW:
This evening after reading this discussion I decided to check the headspace using shim stock. I found that the bolt will close on new unfired brass with a pile up of up to .
.020 inch of shim stock between the brass and the bolt face.

Given the fire form procedure, is this a dangerous situation? And if so, what should be done about it?

In order to determine anything using shims and new brass you need to know what the new brass measures. I have found it not uncommon to see a difference in belt/head dimensions of some .013. It is possible in some brass that it could go more. That said, .020 worth of shim material would give me pause to seek a more accurate means of measurement before going further. Were I you, I would obtain a magnum no-go gauge to check it, or, get your local gunsmith to drop a gauge in it.