Does anyone have a clear pic of set back? This photo isn't great...where the bolt lugs rest there is a slight depression in both the lugs. Should the entire lug be uniformly even or is a slight depression where the bolt lug seats normal?

If you can see a depression then you have set-back. That being said, whether or not it's a problem is a bit more complicated and therefore debatable.

IMO a couple thousandths isn't a big problem as long as you understand what caused it and you correct that so it doesn't continue. If it is more, say ten thousandths or more then I begin to question the continued serviceability of the part.

Thanks, I'll try and measure it or get it measured. I've done a lot of searches and there seems to be two sides on heat treating, one being it's a waste of time since it's low in carbon to begin with and the other that what it needs is recarburized. What is this exactly, is a carbon paste painted on then heated, a gas?

I don't know the history, it's an exceptionally clean 1908 Brazilian that has had some nicely done work performed on it already.

I don't know exactly how they were carbonized originally. I've read that to add carbon parts are packed in a carbon source, charcoal, burned bone meal etc, and then run through the heat treating furnace with limited oxygen. I personally subscribe to the school that believes it isn't necessary to re-heat treat actions but by just saying this I'm setting myself up for flaming--a new form of heat treating I suppose.

The heat treating issue has been discussed here ad nauseum. I believe that when building a custom rifle from a military Mauser it's cheap insurance.

quote:

The heat treating issue has been discussed here ad nauseum. I believe that when building a custom rifle from a military Mauser it's cheap insurance.

Yes, and divided we stand If the setback isn't too much I'll get it done anyway.

Once upon a time I admired the workmanship of the Argentine 1909, and saw that many used them for their custom projects, with apparant satisfaction.

So, I bought several over a period of three or so years, and spend money signifiant in amount to me on having two rifles built. Within a year, I noticed that the bolt became harder to lift on one, and on closer inspection noticed the one rifle had a gap between the bolt handle and the back of the receiver. I thought - humm - I don't remember that being that way, and compared it to the other rifle. That's when I discovered what set back is.

Then I closely inspected the other rifle and saw that it too was in the early stages of set back. Then I inspected the other unaltered receiver and discovered that it was set back too, from the original military cartridges it was designed to shoot. So, I pulled the barrels, and other goodies off the finished rifles and got rid of them all.

Every time I see one of those beauties all dressed up with great wood stocks, and think about all that time and money someone has into it, I am truely amazed. This is a classic sow's ear into a silk purse scenerio.

There are plenty of actions available where heat treatment and setback are not an issue, such as FNs, CZs, and some newly mfg Mauser actions, and others. Also, if a guy just has to use a military mauser, as I understand it, some military mausers such as the VZ24s made in the mid-thirties don't have the problem of receiver softness. I have never heard of the VZs setting back, but maybe some do.

Anyway, I certainly don't want to get into a flaming argument, or burst someone's dream of some prize custom project. It's your money and time after all. Time, and burning some powder will sort it all out anyway. You can always use it as a wall hanger, and admire the workmanship, and walnut, and tell people how much money you have into it.

KB

I would really like to know more about this. I've seen the arguments in favor of heat treatment, etc., and don't really want to get into that discussion again.

But I don't remember reading any comments regarding the setback issue on military mausers made in the mid to late 30s, such as the VZs, for example, or an ERMA S/27, or S/42G, or S/42, ot S/147, etc.

I'm wondering if anyone has personal experience on this specifically. I have several such actions, none of which show any signs of setback, but all but one are still just military actions. I have the one barreled in 35 whelen, and it seems fine. It's not reheat treated. I have no intention of heat treating any of these actions, but I'm not planning any magnums on them either.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
I would really like to know more about this. I've seen the arguments in favor of heat treatment, etc., and don't really want to get into that discussion again.



KB

Then you cannot ask the question you just asked.

I'll simply say this. I have seen the oft over praised FN with setback, I've seen K98's, vz24's and other later model actions with it too. They are less likely to show setback than some of the earlier actions but I'm not a gambler so I have all mine carburised.

When you consider the overall cost of building a custom rifle the additional expense of carburising is nominal.

I have an otherwise fine 1909 Argentine specimen here who's lugs have been driven back at least .0315. The fellow who barreled this in a magnum caliber should have, in my opinion, had the thing reheat treated if for nothing more than as cheap insurance against what has now happened. It is for all intents and purposes, a paper weight. If I remember, I'll try and shoot a photo or two tomorrow.

Malm, at what point do you consider the set back too much?

quote:

Originally posted by dempsey:
Malm, at what point do you consider the set back too much?

.010 - .015 tops. The way I see it, the further the lugs are pushed back, the greater the distance between the bolt face and the breech end of the barrel. This increase in distance exposes way too much brass which can lead to a dangerous case head separation. Too me, based on this, the decision to scrap an action with more set back than .010 -.015 is a simple one.

Thanks. I'm getting it measured next week. I'll hope for the best. The action is in nice shape otherwise.

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:
Then you cannot ask the question you just asked.

OK. I understand your point. So, I made up my mind a long time ago to limit the use of the military receivers to calibers such as 257 Bob, 6.5x55, 7x57, 8x57, 9.3x57, 9.3x62, etc. I know, I've got one in 35 Whelen.

Once, I sent a 1909 receiver to a barrel maker, to have it rockwell hardness tested. They sent it back, saying they would not put one of their barrels on it.

So, my question/point is -- if an action has no setback, presently, and it tests satisfactorily in the rockwell test, why heat treat it? I have a humble opinion --- very humble --- that it's Ok to go ahead and use such an action as is --limited to one of the mild cartridges mentioned.

Incidentally, I consider any set back too much.

Of course, I wouldn't spend the money to put a barrel on a receiver -- first if it already had set back, and second if it tested too soft. Personally, I would just get rid of it.

Thanks for the discussion.
KB

quote:

Once, I sent a 1909 receiver to a barrel maker, to have it rockwell hardness tested. They sent it back, saying they would not put one of their barrels on it.

What surface did they test?

I can't remember. I just took their word for it. I remember seeing little puncture marks in several places on the front part of the receiver.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:
Then you cannot ask the question you just asked.

OK. I understand your point. So, I made up my mind a long time ago to limit the use of the military receivers to calibers such as 257 Bob, 6.5x55, 7x57, 8x57, 9.3x57, 9.3x62, etc. I know, I've got one in 35 Whelen.

Once, I sent a 1909 receiver to a barrel maker, to have it rockwell hardness tested. They sent it back, saying they would not put one of their barrels on it.

So, my question/point is -- if an action has no setback, presently, and it tests satisfactorily in the rockwell test, why heat treat it? I have a humble opinion --- very humble --- that it's Ok to go ahead and use such an action as is --limited to one of the mild cartridges mentioned.

Incidentally, I consider any set back too much.

Of course, I wouldn't spend the money to put a barrel on a receiver -- first if it already had set back, and second if it tested too soft. Personally, I would just get rid of it.

Thanks for the discussion.
KB

Why don't you just come out and say you're against heat treating? It ok if that's the way you feel.

I have em all done for multiple reasons. But the simplest is that when they're done, I KNOW the parameters. I know depth of case, hardeness, etc. Something a hardness test alone won't tell you.

I've had a few rather nicely done guild rifles, and commercials that had setback. After correcting & heat treating these fine rifles were fit for use. In fact, I salvaged a real nice little 8x57 recently by fixing the setback, heat treating, and rechambering to 8x60S. The nice little DST rifle was salvaged at a fraction of the cost of building a new rifle.

Well Z, my VZ24 is now done without carburizing in the 9.3 x 62 and if setback occurs you're the man! I am just awaiting my reloading dies.

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:
Why don't you just come out and say you're against heat treating? It ok if that's the way you feel.

I have em all done for multiple reasons. But the simplest is that when they're done, I KNOW the parameters. I know depth of case, hardeness, etc. Something a hardness test alone won't tell you.

I've had a few rather nicely done guild rifles, and commercials that had setback. After correcting & heat treating these fine rifles were fit for use. In fact, I salvaged a real nice little 8x57 recently by fixing the setback, heat treating, and rechambering to 8x60S. The nice little DST rifle was salvaged at a fraction of the cost of building a new rifle.

Salvaging those older beauties is absolutly worth the effort, and I totally support your opinion regarding the heat treatment of the receiver in those instances. That's worthwhile. In those cases, the committment has already been made to use a specific receiver, which has proven to actually need heat treatment, or otherwise remain worthless. I will join you in support of that point of view all day.

Now, I suppose the same argument can be made toward salvaging the 1909 Argentines, since they are so well made, if you can find one that hasn't already been set back. I'll give you that one.

Personally, I'll let the aficionados have all the 1909s, because I find the VZs, Orbrendorfs, ERMAs BRNOs, FNs just fine.

Incidentally, I have bought 1909 bottom metal for all my military actions, except one, and I don't have any 09 receivers. Wonder where all those 09 receivers went? Probably on someone's custom rifle.

Now, for another topic. Is the case head the same diameter for the 8x64 Brennekee compared to the 8x60S? I think that 8x60S is great, and would like to have one. I haven't researched brass availability. What's the situation with that?

Edited: I looked on Huntington's site, and found only RWS brass for the 8x60S, and none for the 8x64. Now that I think about it, the 8mm/06 seems like something worthwhile in 8mm. The dies are not expensive or a problem to find, reamers too, and brass of course is readily available. Could be a fun cartridge, and useful too. But, I would use an FN action, to get the full length magazine.

KB

I cut WWII vintage '98 in two lengthwise,
to make two paperweights. This was done on
the mill with sliting saw. When it was
examined it was found to have set back about
1/32 inch. It had seen mil service only, with
mil ammo. I was very suprised. Something
to think about.

RG

quote:

Originally posted by Westpac:

quote:

Originally posted by dempsey:
Malm, at what point do you consider the set back too much?

.010 - .015 tops. The way I see it, the further the lugs are pushed back, the greater the distance between the bolt face and the breech end of the barrel. This increase in distance exposes way too much brass which can lead to a dangerous case head separation. Too me, based on this, the decision to scrap an action with more set back than .010 -.015 is a simple one.

I'll ask it (I couldn't find it through search function) what is the proper procedure to measure setback? I have some milsurp actions in the drawer (including some 1909's) and I'd like to know if there's any setback.

quote:

Originally posted by Recoil Rob:
I'll ask it (I couldn't find it through search function) what is the proper procedure to measure setback? I have some milsurp actions in the drawer (including some 1909's) and I'd like to know if there's any setback.

I don't know if it is the proper way, but you can measure it like you would when measuring the action and bolt to set headspace. You take a measurement from the face of the receiver to the bolt face just prior to the stripped bolt going into battery, and again when the bolt is in battery. Subtract the second reading from the first and you have your answer.

You can also use a spring loaded lapping type tool, as sold by Brownells, to apply pressure against the bolt face, and after securing the receiver in a vise, work the bolt in and out of the depression while watching a dial indicator that is "zeroed" against the back edge of the bolt body.

If anyone has any nice 1909 Argentines or other nice mauser actions with a little bit of setback and you don't want them anymore let me know. I will pay the postage for you to ship them to me.

Just curious so humor me. Lug setback seems to be a condition generally seen when milsurp actions are rebarreled for a modern high pressure load. Would it be uncommon to find lug setback on a milsurp still barreled for it's original cartridge, say, a M1909 that's still barreled for the original 7.65, or a M98 still barreled for 7 or 8 x 57?

Speaking only from my limited experience, I have seen two 1909 Argentine actions with significant setback, and they had been shot only with the original barrel in 7.65. I have never seen or noticed any other military type mauser with set back, but I have not looked closely at several of them either. I've inspected perhaps six, other than the 1909s. However, this discussion is useful, because now I'm going to inspect all the military mauser actions I have. I looked at one yesterday - a 1938 VZ24, and the place where the bolt lugs rest are smooth all the way across, just a bit shiny from contact. This action has seen some service too.

So, setback is not just something that happens after rebarreling. On the two 1909s I had rebarreled, I'm sure one set back after the new barrel was attached, and the other I just don't know if it was already set back or not before rebarreling.

So Dempsey, even if your receiver is set back more than you want to deal with, the bolt and the bottom metal is still worth a lot. You can easily find another receiver, and lap the lugs in. I don't know for sure, but I'm thinking the bolt lugs are not where the set back occurrs, but the rail on the inside of the receiver, so your bolt should be good. With the replacement receiver, all lapped in, and dressed up, you can then decide whether to heat treat it or not, knowing your starting place is with no setback.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Recoil Rob:
Just curios so humor me. Lug setback seems to be a condition generally seen when milsurp actions are rebarreled for a modern high pressure load. Would it be uncommon to find lug setback on a milsurp still barreled for it's original cartridge, say, a M1909 that's still barreled for the original 7.65, or a M98 still barreled for 7 or 8 x 57?

It is not exclusive to modern high pressure rounds.

I've seen milsurps some of which hadn't seen much use that exhibited it.

I for one have never had trouble with the 1909 Arg. action. My first project in school was on one of these,and chambered in 30/06. This one action as far as i know never was treated, and i sent some fairly warm loads through it. That being said i have collected four more and they are in the bottom of the tool box waiting to be rescued. This thread got me to wandering how they faired and went out and checked them and they are all o.k..
A recent gunshow had one on the table for $20.00 reciever only, i picked it up and asked o.k. what is wrong with it, seen no warpage. Due to set-back it was cheap. When i say set-back, i mean in the most drastic way i have ever seen...deep. As i finish all the metal work on the four. I plan to have them treated after reading lots of stuff here, not looking for wallhangers after all them hours of work.
I think about that one action i seen at the gunshow and wish now i had bought it. Why? Just to see if it could have been welded, remachined or lapped and treated, to make for a good action. Yea, lots of work but i still wander if it could be pulled off. Has anyone went to this extream and did it work, just thinking out loud!

quote:

I've seen milsurps some of which hadn't seen much use that exhibited it.

Is it possible proof loads caused these.

Hi,
Im not a gunsmith but here we made tons of 1909 into magnum without problems.
Thanks
Martin

Hi,
Most of 1909 rifles are rebarreled in Argentina to .308 Win. and .300 Win. Mag.
A gunsmith with much experience told me that he do not rebarrel to Magnum cartridge actions made in Argentina but only German actions.
I have hear about lugs setting back on actions that have been lenghted removing part of the frontal lug/ramp (mostly for .375 H&H Mag.
Hope this helps.
Thanks
Martin

I'm a convert.....I formerly posted about Mausers and the need to heat treat them....I have 1909s in .220 S and .25-06 and not heat treated and both are fine.....at least as far as I know.....

So many well known smiths here have posted to the contrary and I just decided to do it anyway.....

If one sends five actions at once the price is the same as sending one.....so I send them (usually) five at a time. Even at one/time including postage the price is $100 and it don't cut diddly in the price of a custom!!! I even heat treat WWII Mausers!

Everyone to their own.....but there's a lot of very hi-buck smiths having them heat treated!!!


FWIW....I don't have the bolts re hardened!

quote:

Originally posted by Toomany Tools:
I've read that to add carbon parts are packed in a carbon source, charcoal, burned bone meal etc, and then run through the heat treating furnace with limited oxygen.

Several methods are used by modern heat treaters....most commonly is a 1550 deg F salt bath solution of hi-carbon salts, the receiver is immersed in the salt bath for a period of time (the deeper the desired case the longer the time) and quenched. The receiver is them "tempered at about 825 deg F and again quenched to draw the hardness to about 37 Rc.....the higher the draw temp the lower the Rc.

Some heat treaters may use a high carbon gas as the medium for carburizing and the process is the same......harden and then draw (temper)

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
If anyone has any nice 1909 Argentines or other nice mauser actions with a little bit of setback and you don't want them anymore let me know. I will pay the postage for you to ship them to me.

It takes some doing but these can be remachined...

I've never done it but all that's needed is a mill and rotary table unless one has a CNC!!

quote:

Originally posted by Martin Godio:
Hi,
Most of 1909 rifles are rebarreled in Argentina to .308 Win. and .300 Win. Mag.
A gunsmith with much experience told me that he do not rebarrel to Magnum cartridge actions made in Argentina but only German actions.
I have hear about lugs setting back on actions that have been lenghted removing part of the frontal lug/ramp (mostly for .375 H&H Mag.
Hope this helps.
Thanks
Martin

That's interesting, I've always heard that the Argentine made actions were softer and therefore not as desirable as the DWM's. As far as desirability goes, I think too many guys put a premium on the DWM logo. I have two 98's built from the SA actions, both are very nice. And yes, I did have them heat treated.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
If anyone has any nice 1909 Argentines or other nice mauser actions with a little bit of setback and you don't want them anymore let me know. I will pay the postage for you to ship them to me.

It takes some doing but these can be remachined...

I've never done it but all that's needed is a mill and rotary table unless one has a CNC!!

Damn it Vapodog, you had to go and tell everybody didn't you.

People remachine Remington lug seats all of the time for accuracy purposes. Shouldn't be any different on mausers.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
People remachine Remington lug seats all of the time for accuracy purposes. Shouldn't be any different on mausers.

That's why you are an attorney and not a gunsmith. There are big differences.

quote:

Originally posted by Westpac:

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
People remachine Remington lug seats all of the time for accuracy purposes. Shouldn't be any different on mausers.

That's why you are an attorney and not a gunsmith. There are big differences.

Different steels, there's a big difference between through hardening and surface hardening. That goes along with the home smith that heated a mauser and quenched in oil saying that it was reheat-treated.
-Don

quote:

Originally posted by Don Markey:
Different steels, there's a big difference between through hardening and surface hardening. That goes along with the home smith that heated a mauser and quenched in oil saying that it was reheat-treated.
-Don

Yeah, and that's just for starters.

So a heat treating wouldn't properly harden the lugs surface if they were leveled off?

quote:

Originally posted by dempsey:
So a heat treating wouldn't properly harden the lugs surface if they were leveled off?

Yes it will if done properly, low carbon steel needs to be gas carberized. Which is a form of case hardening.
-Don