Guntoter, this will probably come over way harser than I mean it to. This is due to the fact that rebuttals without voice inflection generally sounds accusatory. I don't mean it to be attacking, rather to be addressing your points, on a point by point basis. We are buddies, but I disagree with your statements on kiln dried wood. Doesn't make either of us a "bad guy" we just disagree.

quote:

Originally posted by Gun toter:
Jeffesso
and anyone else who believe in this philosophy of not buying wood from a form of a kiln...do you understand your home is a kiln?

The first definition of a kiln is a thermally isolated (from the environment) with ELEVATED from the environment temps. Perhaps my attic could be considered a kiln, but not my garage or my liviable space in my house. House satys around 75, garage at ambiant, and attic can hit 150,

quote:

Originally posted by Gun toter:
The problem with this mentality is that it is set in old ways of thinking.

you may be the first person to accuse me of suffering for nostalgia.. generally *I* am the person decrying "it aint voodoo"

quote:

Originally posted by Gun toter:
Antiquated techniques for drying wood were harsh and fast, too fast and often damaged the wood before it was dried.

no, sir, wood dried over years, with sealer on the ends, can not dry too fast. in FACT, the waxed ends and air dry techinique delays drying, to prevent damage from the ends splitting

quote:

Originally posted by Gun toter:
Today in the custom gun industry the uneducated like to demonize “kiln drying†and they have no edification about the modern techniques.

you meant education, right, as "enlightment" is a qualitative judgement. However, you are mistaken in assuming that I haven't done extensive research in accelerated drying, namely in vac and vac/radiated heated, or high airflow kilns. I have built either 4 or 5 (depends if you consider modifications of one to be enough to be another ) and attempted, over months, to measure the changes.

quote:

Originally posted by Gun toter: They still believe that kiln means it is cooked like they did in the industrial revolution.

see abovee

quote:

Originally posted by Gun toter:
If you shelter your wet blanks by placing them in the house or garage or attic with the thought that you are allowing them to “dry properlyâ€â€¦â€¦you are controlling the rate of drying just as a modern kiln does.

this is reaching, sorry, and demonstrates that you don't "Get" what air drying is. Attic is different than House (hot, uncontrolled humidity vs low temp (in houston) and controlled humidity (low and low humidity) vs garage, ambiant temp and humidity.

quote:

Originally posted by Gun toter:
Modern drying systems are FAR superior to simply air drying.

and here lies the rub. "simple" air drying doesn't wax the ends. If one attempts to dry 2+inch thick wood without waxing the ends, splits happen 100% of the time. Drying a stock blank is not "simple" air drying.

quote:

Originally posted by Gun toter:
And guess what, if you have bought a production gun from ANY AND ALL manufacturers, you bought kiln dried wood.

interesting point. However, not "all" production guns use kiln dried wood, most AMERICAN guns, sure.
Kiln dried wood, especially on a RAPID dried wood, is ALWAYS "chippy" if you have to inlet for a new barrel. I know the fella used to provide the wood for all the high grade rems, wins, and weatherbys, every stick 4+ years old

quote:

Originally posted by Gun toter:
Further, the furniture industry and every other industry in the world that uses wood will only use kiln dried wood.

custom stock making is hardly an "industry", rather an artisan, or in MY case, mechanical (i don't pretend to have 1/10 the skill of Bill, Chic, and several other here).. None of those stock makers CHOOSE kiln dried wood.

quote:

Originally posted by Gun toter:
So throw away all your wood you bought from California, Nevada and all your factory guns.
They must be junk.

Hmm, no one said kiln dried wood was "junk". What Bill said, when someone stated wood over 1" won't air dry, was "Rubbish" and what *I* said was that I would not buy stocks that I KNEW to be kiln dried, which is PREFERENCE. Since neither of us controls the others money and spending, let's not infer being hidebound on an issue.

However, will I turn someone's stock from kiln dried wood? Sure, why not, as I am not being paid to judge wood, I am being paid to perform a specific service and the color, choice, and subject are the customers' choice, to an extent. I won't turn a bigbore stock in pine!!

quote:

Originally posted by Customstox:
I don't know where you get your information DR K or where you got your doctorate but I call bull shit. You seem to be full of it.

Check the link. For Reno, the annual average thru 1993 was 31 and the low was 18. A long ways from 4%.

National Average Relative Humidity

You just earned a much deserved place on my ignore list.

I think Customstox must get a hard on everytime he puts somebody on his ignore list.

Dr. K

quote:

BristleCone Pine

And there you go again. Bullshit again. Even the "alpha" tree still has a thin strip of bark that supplies nutrients and moisture to the crown, and it is over 4000 years old.

I have to agree with Chic, the credibility factor went from "0" to negative numbers. Don't care where you got your worthless degree, but give it back.

Well all of you geniuses :

Bark doesn't supply anything other than protection to the underlying Sap wood where nutrients are carried through the Cambium . When the cambium dies it becomes bark !.

I shall now quote directly from the Forrest Products lab. Manual and Albert Constantine Jr.

( The Bristlecone Pine are among the oldest known living things in the world !.

It's picturesque sculptured trunks rejects decay , although mostly dead it has the ability to concentrate vitality to a branch or two ,this keeps it growing for centuries . How ever lacking bark or living cambium it is a mystery as to how it's done !.) End Quote

As for Reno Nevada ; I used that as a Reference point for less than 7% relative humidity , because I have been there on several occasions when it's been below 4 % !.
Please put it in context , when I made that statement !.

3 weeks ago where I live we had 3 days below 8% RH . I never said or meant to say it was an average. If I did then I was mistaken and stand corrected .

Well ; I guess we're all just Dumb asses Huh !.

Should I return all 3 degrees ?.

Thankfully ; I'm neither concerned or dependent on any one of you're Credibility Assessments .



Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

Yes you should. Dead is still dead, the referrenced tree lacks neither of the feature as you purported, so much for those degrees. Now on to the ignore feature.

22WRF, well it wouldn't be a very interesting life there are now only two people on my ignore list and you are one of them. Most other people on here have some redeeming values or something worth reading but not the two of you. Now your post is hidden again and life is so much better.

quote:

Originally posted by larrys:
Yes you should. Dead is still dead, the referrenced tree lacks neither of the feature as you purported, so much for those degrees. Now on to the ignore feature.

I also wanted to allow your self to fall back into it !. I went to school with Don Curry !.

You may or may not of heard of him regardless of that . He has the unique distinction of being the Very Person who " KILLED THE OLDEST LIVING THING ON THIS PLANET !. He was an undergraduate and didn't know what he had done . The parks and Wildlife Service gave him permission !. Little did any of us know at that time .

In his defence that wasn't even his field of study , he's a Geologist !.

So you see I had first hand knowledge of what they really are !. From the inside out !.

So I shall keep my degrees , as well as credibility !. Thanks for testing though it's been some time since I've actually had to explain something in depth .

You may now ignore all of my future posts as well .

Shoot Straight know Your Target . ...

quote:

Originally posted by Customstox:
22WRF, well it wouldn't be a very interesting life there are now only two people on my ignore list and you are one of them. Most other people on here have some redeeming values or something worth reading but not the two of you. Now your post is hidden again and life is so much better.

quote:

Originally posted by Customstox:
22WRF, well it wouldn't be a very interesting life there are now only two people on my ignore list and you are one of them. Most other people on here have some redeeming values or something worth reading but not the two of you. Now your post is hidden again and life is so much better.

Gee, and here I posted just a little while ago how nice it was to be on Customstox ignore list so I didn't have to read his Bullshit everytime I posted. Maybe he tells everybody they are on his ignore list becuase it gives him a high, or like I said, a hard on, even though they really aren't on his ignore list.

Regardless, once again, for all to hear, I am very happy to be on Customstox ignore list so that I don't have to worry about reading his bullshit everytime I post something.

This might be a interesting thread if somebody would explain why slab sawn wood is no better or worse than quarter sawn or explain why they think quarter sawn is superior. Watching Chic implode just doesn't muster entertainment or information.

All my guns have a moisture meter installed so I know whether to hold right or left---it's right next to the wind meter which seems to always be blowing--I tried a BS meter too but it always seemed to be pegged out.

Oh Dempsey, you have to move up the ladder of ability, skill, intelligence and improve your personality a great deal for your opinion to matter to me. And we both know that is not going to happen.

quote:

Originally posted by Customstox:
Oh Dempsey, you have to move up the ladder of ability, skill and intelligence a great deal for your opinion to matter to me. And we both know that is not going to happen.

pure arrogance!

Geez Chick you ruined my whole day

You know after reading this thread it has occurred to me that several have missed the perfect opportunity to keep their mouths shut. I really don't mean that in a bad way, but if you'll go back and read the entire thread from the top you'll see replies from some of the best stock makers around today. Then you'll read a lot of replies from others who believe their opinions hold more weight because well, I'm not really sure why. It would seem to me this was a perfect oppertunity to learn something and a lot of people missed out on it.

Terry

I think the kiln drying and the controversy surrounding it took it off kilter. I've read opinions from good stock makers on slab vs. q-sawn before and they seem to be all over the map. Maybe it's the .06vs.270 debate of wood, I don't know.

Oh come on Terry-

What are you, a sourpuss?

These threads only really get good on the second page!

Okay, okay, I almost joined in.

I made a list of the contributors, and their number of posts. How much fun is that?

Suffice it to say that some extremely talented stockmakers have posted here.

Most commonly, briefly.

Duane Wiebe asks for opinions?

Pretty shameless, I'd say.

These guys don't need any encouragement!

I do admit to getting a charge out of SDH's "...we're all experts around here."

A little gentle, though, I thought.

LOL.

Or, "... and now we have a page full of saluting emoticons, by golly!"

That's a little more like it!

Reminds me of that old English professor who spoke of cutting with a razor, rather than an ax.

Anyway, while this all has tremendous entertainment value, it's a little tough on those who take these issues seriously.

Wouldn't it be nice if someone would write a scorecard for AR?

As a guide to the newbs... so they wouldn't be so confused by some of these extravagant posts?

As in "Ya Can't Tell The Players Without A Scorecard!!!!"

flaco

Actually, nobody ask my opinion and I felt left out. HA!

Well, if I ever write anything that changes the type of day you're having for the better or worse, I would suggest you take a break from the internet for awhile

Terry

Terry, I think you are right. dempsey, I apologize for my part of the hijack. I got sucked in to the idiocy. I promise to be better. There are many great folks here from which to learn.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

I think Customstox must get a hard on everytime he puts somebody on his ignore list.

You know, for some one that cries as much as you do about people giving you a hard time, I find it funny that you are continually the one that casts the first stone.

Other than overpriced items for sale, what have you ever contributed, on a technical level, to any conversation?

Watch out folks, his band of ninnies (duikerman, dempsey, and the like) will now spring into full attack mode.

quote:

Originally posted by rem721:
You know, for some one that cries as much as you do about people giving you a hard time, I find it funny that you are continually the one that casts the first stone.

For a poster that has yet to post a single photo of his work and continually infringes on sellers items claiming them to be overpriced you have earned nothing but contempt from many of us here.

22WRF is a far more contributing poster here than the likes of you and Worthing.

quote:

Originally posted by duikerman:

quote:

Originally posted by rem721:
You know, for some one that cries as much as you do about people giving you a hard time, I find it funny that you are continually the one that casts the first stone.

For a poster that has yet to post a single photo of his work and continually infringes on sellers items claiming them to be overpriced you have earned nothing but contempt from many of us here.

22WRF is a far more contributing poster here than the likes of you and Worthing.

And the admiration of others.

Why would I post pics of my work???? Am I selling it? And, since you've obviously missed it even though I've stated it many times, I am retired. Don't work on guns any more.

What the hell has 22wrf ever posted of worth? Not one how-to. Only insipid requests for pics of that damn raffle rifle.

Chic's posts are of far more value to those smart enough to pay attention. Look back at some of the older posts he has made.

Quote by 721
{"That Damn Raffle Rifle"}


That kind of language shows what an idiot and fruitcake Rem721 really is, as well as how Customstox operates. Customstox puts people he doesn't like on ignore, and then he has his little baby Rem 721 monitor the site for him and report back to him what is being said. Did I say fruitcake. Sorry, I should have said two fruitcakes.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Quote by 721
{"That Damn Raffle Rifle"}


That kind of language shows what an idiot and fruitcake Rem721 really is, as well as how Customstox operates. Customstox puts people he doesn't like on ignore, and then he has his little baby Rem 721 monitor the site for him and report back to him what is being said. Did I say fruitcake. Sorry, I should have said two fruitcakes.

Whah, now you done went and hurt my feelings.

Again, I think you are confusing your actions with mine. Isn't it you that calls up your sorry pals to come to your defense? I think your resorting to name calling clearly demonstrates that your mind works at the fifth grade level.

721

I would rather have a mind that works at the 5th grade level than one like yours that works at the kindergarten level.

Just a shoe, that one might not wish to try on and claim it to be a custom fit

quote:

Originally posted by no-one:
You know, for some one that cries as much as you do about overpriced items for sale people giving you a hard time, I find it funny that you are continually the one that casts the first stone.

Other than overpriced items for saleyou giving people a hard time, what have you ever contributed, on a technical level, to any conversation? (mere criticism doesn't account COUNT)

Watch out folks, this super critic will now spring into full attack mode, and befoul threads wherever he goes

I was following this post in hopes to learn something! As in the first post i have a blank in the same shape, has what started as a little bow at one side. The blank was bought 16 months ago and it is not dry. Beautiful crotch in the butt and straight as as arrow from grip forward. I dont want to lose this peice, so i dont know if this is the right time or the post to ask but... because it is still wet can the warpage be controlled or do i let it do its own thing. I usally buy my blanks air dried already but found a few wet at a nice price and thought i would give it a try. I'm more of a metalsmith than a wood person, but i have a weakness for nice walnut so i cant say no at times, Soooo is it possiable to get an answer here?

quote:

Originally posted by srtrax:
I was following this post in hopes to learn something! As in the first post i have a blank in the same shape, has what started as a little bow at one side. The blank was bought 16 months ago and it is not dry. Beautiful crotch in the butt and straight as as arrow from grip forward. I dont want to lose this peice, so i dont know if this is the right time or the post to ask but... because it is still wet can the warpage be controlled or do i let it do its own thing. I usally buy my blanks air dried already but found a few wet at a nice price and thought i would give it a try. I'm more of a metalsmith than a wood person, but i have a weakness for nice walnut so i cant say no at times, Soooo is it possiable to get an answer here?

Here's what I've done.....
1. drill a (roughly) 3/16 Dia hole in the narrow end of the blank and thread a wire thru it and hand it vertically from a rafter or floor joist in a low humidity room.

2. paint the end grain of the blank to prevent too fast drying of the ends resulting in splitting.

3. If it wants to warp...let it.....it's going to do it anyway! After about 5 years of air drying use it as is best you can.....

I know I can't add anything to this thread of any significance but the only 2 custom rifles I have that I ordered have beautiful wood. I did not specify what type of walnut I wanted just WALNUT WALNUT. After 60 years I still can't just LOOK at a blank and tell one from another. I didn't order quarter or slab sawn as I frankly don't care which cut it is. I didn't specify type of drying process as I really DON'T know if one is superior to another. I specified a DARK piece of wood and the style of stock and the checkering and the accoutrements I wanted to be installed. Both finished stocks meet all my criteria and one is slab sawn and one is quarter sawn. Both rifles shoot into 1/2" and I'll tell you in about 50 years how the stocks hold up but so far so good. One was done by a well known top stockmaker and one by a relatively unknown builder who I would compare favorably to any alive today. Which is better,who the heck can say with any degree of reality. The main thing to me is I'M satisfied with the results.

srtrax, I think vapodog gave you some good advice. I have even just put an eyescrew through the end of the smaller end (forend) rather than drilling it. Some say that will give the wood a propensity to crack, but it has never happened to me. Just seal the ends very well.

Now, I will say that I have seen some very nice stocks that were "bent" by a steaming process for added cast-on or cast-off that have not moved once they re-dried, so I wouldn't worry much about it.

Heh Heh....

I don't spend much time on these forums anymore. My brother gave me a heads-up about this thread. Very entertaining!

I likely don't have the requisite qualifications to comment..........we all being experts aside. I still use the old principles of Linden and the like. Wood moves.....be it dead or alive. Try to get the best grain and cut that minimizes the affect of movement. Finish with products and processes that minimize moisture travel. Revel in the fact that this may be a work-in-progress forever. It keeps the gun in your hands more..........and that's a good thing.

BTW......for my money the reference to Currey and Prometheus was the best thing about the thread. I spent some time reading about it. Thanks Dr. K.....

GV

I forgot to mention that this one blank with a slight curve is about 2 3/4 inches thick, and it has the ends sealed, but it also has wax on the sides and top and bottom, has been sealed for the 16 months, no splits or anything, just the slight warpage i rather not have. When is it safe to start removing the wax from top, bottom and the sides, The hole blank is sealed at this point and time! I have heard of the hanging method and will give that a try. Thanks!

My Last post on this subject I promise !!.

VapoDog has it right again ; There is NOTHING WRONG with doing that , if one wants to wait 5 years or 3 or what ever length of time .

A piece of wood or stock blank must be allowed to lose moisture some where some how by which ever means one choses Kiln or Air dry !.

Having the piece of wood in question trying to dry " Sealed " all around is IMO not good !. Sealed End grain Absolutely !.

I can only go on proven percentages . Timber Industries figures not mine . As well as my experiences that to the best of my current knowledge there is no faster or better means in which to dry wood with the least amount of loss or degrade , then in an Evaporative Kiln Schedule .

Sorry to have ruffled so many feathers !.
I shall in the future try not to be such a Dam Condescending know it all !. Because I don't know it all by any means !.

Never ask me a Gun smithing question because I know Jack about it !!.

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

A stock maker friend of mine told me the stock needed to breath, or at least unseal it to let moisture out so i did so on a 2 pc. that is of the same age as the other wet blanks and it done some of the craziest things i didnt know wood could do. At one time i almost pitched it in the trash can, but for some reason it has healed itself and looks great at this point in the drying stage. Another one in rife length size has ends waxed, sealed only at the ends and it is doing fine! Again, should i remove the side and top and bottom sealer to let it take on and loose moisture?

GrandView!

Where have you been?

We've missed your positive contributions.

As to me... and I know, I posted a little "Tongue In Cheek"... to address the original topic of the thread: I much prefer quarter sawn wood.

Layout is as important as color and figure--or close enough--and a stock with streaking running parallel in the fore end and then down into the pistol grip and toe of the buttstock just looks right.

The way a stock should look.

As to kilns, well, it's not really my issue. Who here is drying blanks? Is this a rhetorical question?

I've had a couple of blanks hanging around for months--through no choice of my own, LOL--but so far I've purchased blanks from Chiron, Denli, and Preslik, and depend on the professionals to treat the wood as they should.

At this point my inclination is to favor air dried blanks, and stay away from kiln dried wood.

flaco

quote:

Again, should i remove the side and top and bottom sealer to let it take on and loose moisture?

My non-expert advice is keep the wax on the end grain on each end. I believe some also will seal heavy burls. I don't know I don't like or buy that kind of wood.

I couldn't care less if the wood is quarter or slab cut, air dried or kiln dried. I respect those that can decide they will work with one and not the other, I cannot, so have learned to work with both.

My concerns are with what is going to happen with the wood as I am working with it, and can I keep the wood from moving years after I have inletted the stock.

A good example is a forend for an octagon barrel that I had to checker and finish on a new rifle that a friend of mine purchased. I removed the forend from the barrel and in the time it took me to checker and finish the forend it warped to the point it wouldn't fit back on the barrel. I relieved as much as I could but the forend split as I was fitting it. I replaced the entire forend and checkering and finishing. Those of you who are stock makers know what that cost.

What I tell anyone now who wants a custom stock built out of a blank that is not mine is that I will do a rough turn to shape and a rough inlet and then let the stock sit for some time to see if the wood is going to move. Guess what, it usually does.

Jim