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What sort of accuracy can one reasonably expect from factory rifles? At what point does one conclude that a rifle's maximum accuracy has been achieved? Allow me to elaborate. We all know that the barrel is the heart of a rifle. Assuming all other problems have been addressed, including bench technique, this will be the limiting factor. How many powders, bullets and primers should be tested before concluding that a rifle has reached its maximum accuracy, assuming the testing is done properly and competently? I've been handloading for >50 years, seriously for 30. I think I am a competent student of the craft. I followed Precision Shooting Magazine for several years and have read Harold Vaughn's "Rifle Accuracy Facts" several times. I've tuned and loaded for several dozens of rifles. When faced with a rifle which doesn't perform well I examine it carefully using a lengthy checklist and correct any problems. In load testing I start with a couple of appropriate bullets of known accuracy, two or three powders in the correct burning rate range but not so similar as to be redundant, and Federal primers. I will test an alternate primer as a last resort. I pay attention to proper brass prep, runout, etc. I begin range testing using the ladder method. With the exception of Problem Child, a Ruger No. 1 RSI, I've never failed to get reliable accuracy of 2" to 2.5", including ALL groups and keeping meticulous records of load data and range results. The most accurate rifle was a bone stock Browning 223 Varmint with the BOSS. Sorry for being so detailed, but I would like to avoid the "Did you try a reliable scope?" responses. Kindly share your opinion. Thanks, Brice | ||
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I don't think we can add to what you are doing. I personally want a hunting rifle to shoot 1MOA with a cold clean barrel, warm dirty barrel, or any condition. I'm not a fan of spending the day at the range spending money on supplies and wasting my time. I've done enough BR shooting through several years and know what my rifle wants. At the range the day before the competition, I throw about 50 rounds down range to check my scope settings and confirm my load. I'm not criticizing a person that likes to go to the range to visit and shoot, it ain't me. | |||
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I use a simple load .. middle of the chart load, known good bullet, and fed 210 primers, -.0275 off the lands if possible, no crimp, single loaded.... this isn't LIKELY to be the best load for the rifle, but it usually give me a good load that ought to shoot fairy well -- if my scope is too course for great accuracy, i "nestle" the bulls eye in quadrant 1 (x+,y+) and have a very good, repeatable sight picture.. this also usually keeps me from aiming at a hole in the bull... if that doesn't shoot good consistent groups, then there is something bad on the gun .. before i've done ANYTHING other than equally tighten the screws... 1/2 of that group size is likely yo be the best that *I* will get out of the gun, with tons of work.. if its MOA or there abouts, then I am happy .. i usually find its a great but generic load .. sort of like a federal gold match load ... if that was 2.5-3 MOA, i would be pretty certain the gun needs work .. and if I have relieved, bedded, trigger, crown, and all the scope/mount tricks, and it still shots 2.5moa, I would give up.. in other words, if that load doesn't shoot, I feel the gun NEEDS WORK, and If I have already worked it over, it goes on down the road.. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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what Butch said opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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If you are talking hunting bolt actions, with today's components and rifles 1MOA is pretty much expected for 3-5 shots out of a cold barrel. That doesn't mean you can pull one out of the box and achieve 1 MOA but with careful load development and a little tweaking, most modern bolt guns are capable of that standard. At least that is what I expect from a hunting rifle. It is also dependent on how much you want to spend but like trying to get more knots out of an airplane, shrinking group sizes can be expensive. Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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For hunting rifles, I know what velocity level I want to see and load to achieve that. If accuracy is reasonable for the rifle and it's purpose, that's it. If a big game rifle shoots into 1 1/2 moa, I'm satisfied. I expect better from a varmint rifle and match rifles are a whole different story. I won't even shoot a rifle before it's glass bedded. The nodern, plastic-stocked rifles are an exception and I would use them as is in the unlikely event that I owned one. Regards, Bill | |||
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Interesting. Four knowledgeable responses, all very similar. Over the years I've drifted in the same direction, i.e. that once a rifle has been cleared of problems, a search for the magic load is likely to be fruitless. Sell it or re-barrel it. Now all I have to do is convince my friends that I cannot work miracles, and that their rifles really are sufficiently accurate to kill big game at normal ranges. Any advice on how to do that? I've already told them to stop reading the damned magazines. | |||
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Over the years, I have found that 90% of accuracy is in the barrel. If I take out a new hunting weight rifle and it shoots right around 1 to 1-1/2 inches with factory Remington Core-Lokt ammo in the green box's, then it's probably worth messing with. If its a varmint weight barrel and shot with the same ammo and shoots 3/4 to 1-1/4 inches I generally give it the same thumbs up. Oddly enough, about 50% of the time modern rifles will do this or better right out of the box with those CoreLokt factory loads. If it does shoot that good you can usually get it a bit better by messing with the rifle and the ammo and get custom rifle performance. Without the look and price of course. But if it's born a mutt, it's always gonna be a mutt. When I was a kid. I had the stick. I had the rock. And I had the mud puddle. I am as adept with them today, as I was back then. Lets see today's kids say that about their IPods, IPads and XBoxes in 45 years! Rod Henrickson | |||
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Just ask them to sign a check made out to you and leave the amount blank.  Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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For years I spent a lot of time and $$ trying to get that factory barrel to shoot 5/8" instead of .75 or 1"moa. I've since come to the conclusion that 1MO each time, every time if plenty accurate for a hunting rifle. Long range varmint them I go for smaller. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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I've been reading and rereading Vaughn's "Rifle Accuracy Facts" this summer too. Very interesting book, especially for someone with similar interests - i.e. what makes a sporter accurate. You never hear anything about some of the solutions he used to get his test rifles shooting better such as the "Recoil Isolater" for bedding, Spira-Lock or lock ring receiver/barrel junction etc. Makes a guy wonder if the new bedding methods used by the likes of Savage's Accustock and Ruger's American have addressed barrel moments in other ways and that the standard V-thread connection is generally good enough as is. Also found an on-line paper by Chris Long that suggests that it's not barrel whip so much as radial expansion and contraction that causes the accurate load levels found by ladder testing. Vaughn studied barrel motion in the x/y plane but makes no mention of radial motion. Anyway, just curious what others think of Vaughn's work and impact on current factory rifle design. | |||
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I think this is a realistic expectation for all factory rifles, if a person uses ALL the groups shot, and is honest with themselves. Probably somewhere around half will do 1 1/2" to 2" groups consistently. I'm amazed continuously at the guys that claim consistent 3/4 to 1 minute groups with their factory rifles, all the times, on demand. They're a lot luckier than I am at getting good factory rifles. I undertook a project one time to try to prove to myself that a remington 700 factory rifle could be tweaked to make it a less than 1 moa rifle, with low cost and just labor. I started with an action, and had access to essentially unlimited quantities of new factory takeoff barrels. I started with a 300 win mag barrel. It shot groups of about 3 minutes, because it walked as it heated. It would do smaller groups if you let it cool for long times between shots. I trued the action face, set back the barrel a couple turns, rechambered to get the throat symmetrical to the bore, and lapped the lug, barrel & action. I had previously pillar bedded and glass bedded the action into the stock, before shooting the unmodified factory barrel. I re-bedded the lug after lapping it in to fit the barrel and action. It shrank the cool barrel groups by about half, but still walked as it heated. I repeated with 4 other barrels in 300 win mag and 338 mag, same results on the first 3, the last one (.338 mag) shot about 1 1/4 moa AFTER the work and didn't walk as it heated. My conclusion based on that limited experiment and observations of several other 700's I've owned is that it's rare for a factory Remington to be capable of anything close to true moa accuracy regardless of how it's fired, and even if the barrel is optimized by some work it will rarely approach that. They are better if allowed to cool between shots, but still not target accurate. I think to be truly capable of reliable 1 moa or less work, you'd have to go custom barrel. Just one mans experience, not a definitive test. dave | |||
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Regarding unusual solutions such as mentioned by Vaughn, I read that Weatherby would cut pieces off a barrel to improve accuracy, as did Browning. I've been told that this was the inspiration for the BOSS. If you are wondering about the value of Vaughn's work, check prices for "Rifle Accuracy Facts" on the used book market. | |||
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I'll agree with you. I will start doing the same on a Remington in 25-06 soon. | |||
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I'll agree with you. I will start doing the same on a Remington in 25-06 soon.[/QUOTE] Betcha a beer, that after you shoot the first box out of it to rub out the boogers and burrs. That it shoots between 7/8ths to 1-1/4, off proper bags @ 100 yards with factory 120 grain Express ammo. Betcha ! ! ! ! LOL  When I was a kid. I had the stick. I had the rock. And I had the mud puddle. I am as adept with them today, as I was back then. Lets see today's kids say that about their IPods, IPads and XBoxes in 45 years! Rod Henrickson | |||
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HOLY SMOKES!!!  That makes it even more curious that Vaughn's solutions aren't more mainstream. I'm way behind the cutting edge of the technology of accuracy but have to guess established, conventional designs work well enough when properly executed. | |||
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I would say most newer rifles are capable of MOA accuracy. Unfortunately most shooters are not capable of shooting MOA.They just do not have the skills and blame the rifle.The most accurate rifles I own shoot good with just about anything you feed them accurately ,hand loads or factory ammo. | |||
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My experience with the new Winchester model 70 guns from South Carolina has been very good. I have yet to find a rifle that shoots worse than 1 moa with the factory barrel. | |||
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A coincidence, Dogcat. I just received from a friend his new M70 ss in 270 Win, and yesterday did barrel break-in and the first ladder test. Like the blind horse, the bore didn't look so good. Quite a lot of tool marks, sort of rough, and some copper from the factory test shots. We will see. The first test suggested that 1 to 1/5" will be the end result, but It's only got 35 rounds down it. More later. | |||
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That should be 1' o 1.5". 140 gr TSX's with IMR4831. | |||
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When you think you have tried everything. You have only tried a small % of the possibles. It's also possible to wear a barrel out and not find a suitable load. I have found stock factory rifles to shoot an inch at 100yd more times than not with good reloads. Kenny | |||
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