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Gents: A very well known, top-flight gunsmith was discussing with me his opinion that a m70 to be built in 375 H&H from a 3006 should be left as 3+1. He gave his position as based upon potential feeding issues and I am wondering if those of you more learned than I would help explain this issue including your take on it. Second, I notice that Sunny Hill makes a unit to provide 4+1 for such an endeavor. Also, Blackburn Machine seems to as well. Is their product readily available in the marketplace, BTW? Thanks! | ||
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It has always escaped my sensibilities, but why in the hell, when Winchester made the Pre-64 M70, the .375 H&H and other magnum rounds held four in the magazine and one up the spout, and everything afterpost 64 magnum rifles only held three in the box and one up the spout. It makes me wonder who in the hell had his head up his ass? Paul B. | |||
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There are some states that still have the regulation about a magazine that holds no more that 3 rounds. | |||
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And since the same rifle in 06 will hold 5 how would such a law work? Only issue I have read was requarding magazine capacity for semi-autos as 5 tied to the assult issue. I have no clue if limits were ever put into place. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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look at the mag spring opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Yep the new mag spring has a hump on the rear. Find an old one or even use a nom mag spring and you should be able to get 4 down. At least I could with a M70 in STW. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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The 3+1 issue with the post 64 M70's is due to the fact that Winchester(later USRAC) went with a one size fits all mag box approach, filler plate aside. The pre-64 H&H magnums had a mag box(and follower) that was specifically and correctly engineered for those cartridges. Paul Mauser had something like 22 specific magazine box designes for the Mauser 98! I would think that there would be more potential for feeding issues by trying to make the .30-06 box and follower work for a .375 H&H. But thats me. For what it's worth the Blackburn four of five down set up for the newer M70's requires remachining the bottom of the action for a new, wider magazine box. | |||
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I'm interested in knowing which states have such a reg. I've only heard of this in relation to pump and auto-loading shotguns. That's how it is here in Colorado. | |||
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My custom Mdl70 SS has 2 down plus 1 in chamber and I have never been inconvienced by it. Had to cut down the box to fit the David Miller laminate I put on it. Barely misses 3 down and I could probably make a new wider box and have 3 with no problem. Have used it several time in Africa and it has not been a problem. If I feel a need for more capacity I use my Brno 602. SCI Life Member NRA Patron Life Member DRSS | |||
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Only thing I did on my M70 STW was use an 06 spring that doesn't have the hump on the back. Everything else is the same. It feeds fine. I have never tried it with a 375 As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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I was told a while back that Mark Penrod would install a M700 (yes, Remington) mag. spring in a M70 box and it would hold 4 down. Out of curiosity I tried it this past weekend. I swapped the mag spring out of my M700 22-250 into my 375 M70. Guess what? The flat spring let's it hold 4 down and it feeds like butter. I'm ordering a magnum length Remmy spring tomorrow. It'll take a little grinding to fit into the M70 follower, as the factory spring steps down in the follower. No big deal, I own a Dremel. I'll get it done and cycle some stuff through it and report back. David | |||
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In the only 2 pre-64 M70 .264's I have fooled with both held 3 down. Now amount of straining, cussing, or praying would come close to getting a 4th down. I asked about it ie here and was told that 3 down was how all the pre-64's came from the factory. Now i read that others get 4 down in pre-64's.  | |||
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wheres my head that is shotguns you guys are right, damn winchesters anyway  | |||
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Marc, That is the case with the 264 and 300 Win. and 338 Win. 3 down. 06 based cases can get 5 down. H&H cases 4 down. HBH | |||
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I must confess that I have a "bad attitude" with these "new M-70's" A PH from Zimbabwe purchased a 458 and chronographed factory loads @ 1900 FPS!! I set the barrel back two turns, rechambered and "viola" velocity came up to expectaions...Feeding was crap! You could take out the original mag spring and sure enough get four down, but everything got pigeon toed and didn't feed. The fix was to make a new magazine box configured like pre 64, machine the rails something like pre 64, replace the follower and magazine spring and while at it, used a new Wisner extractor (old one was cast) and Mr Gough went back to Africa with a thoroughly reliable, working rifle. My final experience was for a left handed customer (new m-70)..went through about the same procedure...anyone shows up with these actions...gonna be busy that day! Life is too short... These guns were designed by bean counters, gunsmiths were apparntly not consulted | |||
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Duane, When you manufacture a new magazine box for the M70 do you make a welded unit? Or do you have a form die of your own design that you use? | |||
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. Sunny Hill triggerguards are available from Brownells and, I think, Midway. I've used them 2 or 3 times on "new model" M70's and they work fine. Holds four 416 Rems. down in my changes. It is all quite simple. ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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I could never figure out all the fuss to get a 4th down. Everyone seems fine with only two shots out of a double rifle but 3+1 equals four but that's inadequate for a bolt gun. I would suggest working on your gun handling (ability to reload quickly)skills and not worry about an extra round. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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That's because you have never needed them. It can be a definite problem for a double rifle. ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Will, Nor do I ever expect to... There is a saying in certain circles: If you aint shootin, you should be loadin. If you aint shootin or loadin, you should be movin. Because if you aint shootin, loadin, or movin; somebody is going to come along and put your head on a post. The likelihood that you go thru 4 rounds and not have the opportunity to reload is pretty remote. If you are going into a hunting situation where 5 rounds instead of 4 increases your odds or improves your safety, then I would suggest you need a different plan. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Then you should buy my book.  ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Duane, In all respect, help me out with this one. I can see if a chamber was f'ed that it would ruin brass, be inaccurate, inconsistant, etc, but .... One doesn't expect to loss more than 30-50FPS firing a winmag in a lott chamber ... so I don't understand how badly a chamber would have to be for it to make a serious impact in velocity... ACCURACY i fully understand, but SIGNIFIGANT velocity? I would really like to hear the rational behind that one, as I am confused.. and being 2 meters and 100 kilos, confused at pretty on me LOL jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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LMAO!!!!! opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Jeff: The problem was with standard off the shelf 458's The factory chambered them with a REALLY long throat..I guess to avoid pressure problems in African heat...least that was the explanation I got. Realistically these issues may have been addressed. Some years back (mainly to get health insurance for my very ill wife), I took a job with a major sporting goods firm for about three years. We had six stores and I'll bet ecvery single M-70 we sold came across my bench for everything from feeding problems, bent extractors, galled cocking cams..well you get the idea. serious stuff for the dangerous game hunter. Kind of a sad encore to a very respected action. | |||
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My 1976 Mod. shows 1930 fps 22" barrel with factory solids that may be up to 30 years old. A stiff handload still only gives me 2060, but I haven't used the best powders yet. | |||
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I installed the Remington 700 long action mag spring in my M70 375 last night. Got it from Brownell's for about $8 or so, I think. Took about 5 minutes with a Dremel to notch the end that fits into the bottom of the follower, as it has to step down the end to fit into the follower. Fed factory Hornady 270 SP into it with 4 down and 1 in the pipe, safety in mid-position of course and outside where safe of course, ejected them like a champ. Fed it 5 of my 350 Woodleigh handloads with the same results. So far so good. I'll tell you more in a couple weeks when I get to do some more shooting and testing. David Walker | |||
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Dave Walker: You're not Dave Walker of 366 DGW fame are you? | |||
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For the money you will probably spend on getting the extra round in the box, you could probably get a second rifle and the tip for a rifle bearer. Maybe because we come from almost the same area, I have to agree with Mike D. If you take a stop watch to someone blasting away with a .375 H&H (aimed fire), and then time any charging animal, you will most likely find that you are being stomped on before the 3rd round gets in the chamber. The rule is stay cool and make the first and second shots count. John | |||
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jsl, I guess not. What's the 366 DGW fame? Is this a wildcat developed by another Dave Walker? Familiarize me, please. By the way, I love your state. I've visited there a couple times. Once on a driving family vacation made from Alabama north through Niagara into Ontario's Algonquin Park, over to Quebec City, then back south through Jackman, and back to the interstates. Spent a little time in Freeport that trip but mostly just passing through. Next trip was sea duck hunting out of Searsport with Todd Jackson of Penobscot Bay Outfitters. We drove up on that trip as well, but got there 2 days before our hunt started. We got into Portland on Friday and enjoyed "Drink Maine Beer Month" at some of the pubs down town. The next day we drove slowly up the coast sight seeing along the way and got into Searsport that night. On Sunday we drove up to Bar Harbor and drove around Acadia. Truly beautiful country and some that I hope to visit again soon. You're a lucky man to live there as far as I can tell. David Walker | |||
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Hi Dave: The 366 DGW is a wildcat made by a gunsmith named judson bailey here in maine. 416 rigby necked down to 9.3mm. Currently, maine is not so beautiful, but often it is quite scenic. | |||
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