Hello, I have just had a bad experience with a local gunsmith. I have been waiting over two years since an adequate deposit (I have reciepts) and solid specifications were made for a custom rifle. He was not waiting on parts. Now its done, the bill is over $500 more than we had talked about (no contract, im the dummy). I would list the things wrong with the rifle (I began to) but its too long. I wrote a check anyways, took it home, rapidly found the problems, stopped payment on the check online and handed the rifle back to the gunsmith the next morning. I am out my $1400 deposit now, about half the total (overpriced) bill. The gunsmith could probably sell the gun and not lose money. Is this fair? is there anything I can do? the gunsmith does not have a good reputation I have realized. I am angry because the gunsmith thinks my concerns are unfounded and petty. Thanks
jsirm

Why in the world would you stop payment on the check and then give the guy the rifle back????????? Now he has you (and your rifle) right where he wants. You now have two logical choices, as I see it, and neither one is real good: 1) pay him and get your rifle back...2) hire a lawyer and try to sue for return of the rifle, your money, and your legal fees (good luck on getting all three!)

I guess you have a third option, but I ain’t gonna say it in public!

On the bright side (if there is one) he can’t just sell your rifle without first filing papers with a court to get legal ownership of it first.

If you are asking for advice (other than legal) I would suggest that you go and sit down face to face with the guy and try to come up with some sort of compromise that gets the rifle back in your hands...and consider any lost money as a lesson learned. Once you have your rifle back you can always sue the hell out of the guy later on if you have the time, money and desire to do so.

quote:

f you are asking for advice (other than legal) I would suggest that you go and sit down face to face with the guy

That's it right there

You waited two years too long in checking up on this bums reputation, put his name on here, and keep some other poor guy from getting taken. Good luck whatever you do.

Easy on him guys! It took 1 1/2 years for me to find out that absolutely nothing had been done on either of my projects. It can happen!

When you aren't told the truth, unless you can walk into the guys shop and say "Hey can I see my rifle?", you have little recourse.

I do agree with the guys above that you should have kept the rifle.

Contact an attorney.

Pay him again, get rifle, stop check, cut losses.
Document everything you can while it's fresh and wait for him to try to sue you.
Sorry, bud, but it would be nice to hear the name so others don't get taken.

I doubt he will take a personal check again.

I wouldn't in the gunsmith's place.

You know, this is pretty funny! A bunch of people hiding behind phoney screen names want to trash someone by posting his name on a public forum. Incredible!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You know, my dad always told me that there are three versions of every story: Yours, Mine, and the truth.

Maybe this gunsmith screwed this guy...and maybe he didn’t. I have no way of knowing either way, and neither do any of you others that want to fry him in oil based solely on a statement made by someone that none of us even knows by his real identity.

Stopping payment on a check and accepting the service is considered Fraud. He won't have to sue you to recoup the money, the Police will do it for him when they come to arrest you. You will also weaken any case you may have.

Good Luck.

First thing you need to do is fire off a letter to the BATF and your State Attorney Generals office. Let them know the situation at hand. Let them know this is your property and you don't want it sold under any circumstances.

Go back and talk to the guy. Be reasonable and see if you can't work something out. Tell him what you find wrong with the gun and exactly why it won't work for you. If he doesn't want to fix the problem's tell him what you'll sell him all the parts for and he can keep the rifle. Try to work things out with the smith. This will be the easiest thing to do. If he's completely unreasonable, give him copies of the two letters and tell him you'll have to settle it in court. Let him know if he sells the gun before this is all settled, you will consider this theft and will take appropriate action.

I would think you could work this out without going court, but It all depends on the personalities involved. Sometimes it's unavoidable. Check to see if this case qualifies for small claims court. If so, file your case there and pursue it.

If the guy sells the gun before this is all settled. Contact the BATF and let them know! Also call your local police and if they will let you, file charges. A rifle is supposed to be "un-claimed" for I think 2 1/2 years before it can be disposed of. Check with the BATF to clarify though. Firearms owners have a few extra rights when it comes to the sell of thier property. It's a little different than if you didn't pay your auto mechanic.

Terry

Mickey 1,

You are incorrect...that is not fraud...it is a civil dispute over breach of contract. Contracts do not have to be in writing.

In reference to my last post. If your face to face meeting doesn't work, also send him a notarized letter with delivery conformation. Let him know your intentions and his consequences in the letter. If it all comes to this everything needs to be documented as well as possible.

Terry

I have a similar situation, that I posted about awhile back(unfortunately, its still not resolved).

Hindsight is 20/20, I shouldn't have given my rifle back to him either. He's had it now, three times longer than what it took to build it the first time, and I'm getting lip service on when its going to be returned.

Chances are, at least in my situation - that its never going to get any better workmanship wise than the shape it was in the first time he gave it back to me.

The fellow that did me(that's how I'm referring to it now), is one of those smiths who one would think would be highly reputable due to the number of published articles he's written for one magazine in particular. He left the shop he was working for, and opened his own shop...and things apparently are a little "different" now.

My wife, who's in the "business", thought we should file on him immediately due to the amount of money involved, and the obvious ruination of several of the components I sent him.

A good story was spun by the smith as how he oversaw an apprentice building this rifle, and apparently should have looked it over a bit closer before shipping it....and that it would be immediately made right.

Of course, there was no mention of anyone else even working in his shop when the order was placed, and parts shipped.... I hadn't planned on my project being an "on the job training" project...and paid top dollar for the services based on his reputation.

In this case, there isn't any real "special" parts, all the stuff is off the shelf(and in stock), at Brownell's, McMillan, and Jewell....unsure of what your situation is there - was wood involved?

So, best of luck - but he's still got your rifle - and at least your deposit too.

To TC1,

The BATF has absolutely no authority (or desire) to get into the business practices of holders of FFL’s...as long as they are in compliance with firearms laws.

This is a civil case between a business and a customer, period end of story.

I am unsure whether you have done it yet, but the first thing is to sit down with this guy and itemise what is wrong. The stop check and returning the gun was a bad move on your part. I wouldn't have picked it up, not sure if it was mailed or fedexed to you, but after inspection my first phone call would have been to the smith. To sit down and notify him exactly why you are unhappy.

BATF could care less, did he illegally transfer or sell the firearm to you? If that answer is no, your wasting your breath. If you can't resolve this peacefully ( have you talked with this guy? ) your next move is small claims court, file the papers, and spend your time getting your paperwork and documentation together.

If you decide on the court route, plan on explaining why you recieved defective product or services. The judge probably won't have a clue and you are going to have some proof why what you recieved is not what you contracted for.

First stop is to, in a calm, polite manner talk to the smith and work on resolution. Then escalate if neccessary. Remember you catch more flys with honey than vinegar when your having the talk.

Edit: And this may sound real mean, but your first mistake was 2 years ago, if you get this into court with no itemised instruction and a contract, with an estimate of work, the first words out out of the judges mouth are going to be very unkind. Any price escalation at this point the smith is going to be able to explain away as requirements creep from your side. Why would you get $1500 dollars rolling around on a verbal contract? Bad, Bad move.

come on schromf, how many of us get a contract put together with our gunsmiths?

This is unfortunate. Part of the question you need to ask yourself is about what is wrong with the work, is it mechanically wrong or cosmetically, because remember that opinions can vary on the latter, not on the first. Is the gun unsafe? mechanical problems you should be able to address with him, cosmetic things you might not be able to because his level of skill, or styling, might not be what you were looking for, sadly seeing more examples of his work ahead of time might have helped avoid that (might, but not for sure, I got burned and had seen lots of the shops work).

If the core parts of your rifle are not damaged beyond use you might propose to him that you give him the money for any parts that were purchased for the gun and not any of his labor. I don't know if he'd go for it, but if you got lucky and he is at least a stand up guy and you are able to exlpain to him legitimate problem you might get lucky.

I'd still like to see the list of whats wrong. In my situation, I was only out a few hundred dollars mind you (not including materials and added cost it will take to replace the stock) I decided that they did not intentionally do me wrong, they did what they were capable of which was just grossly below what I found acceptable, I didn't even make a stink about it with the shop, I just took ALL my business elsewhere.

Good luck.

Red

You know what they say about verbal contracts not being worth the paper they’re written on!

I can imagine in my mind that this gunsmith is with a bunch of his friends telling a story that is the exact opposite of what we are hearing. “Yeah, I worked my ass off on this guys rifle for two years, he picked it up and then stopped payment on the check for the balance due!â€

These kinds of posts always amuse me because the person is asking a bunch of strangers what he should do, rather than sitting down with the person he does know (the gunsmith) and getting the problem resolved.

Before I ever give/send a firearm to anyone for work I always have a long verbal discussion about the work/cost, followed by a written work order (with a cost estimate) that I ask them to sign and date. I also always include a section that says that if any costs exceed their written estimate that I am to be contacted for authorization prior to the work being done.

This is just common sense and good business for both parties whether its work on a firearm or someone painting your house.

quote:

Before I ever give/send a firearm to anyone for work I always have a long verbal discussion about the work/cost, followed by a written work order (with a cost estimate) that I ask them to sign and date. I also always include a section that says that if any costs exceed their written estimate that I am to be contacted for authorization prior to the work being done.

Bingo,

I have violated my own rules a time or two, but that is with guys that I have known and worked with for years, and done dozens of transactions with. And the paperwork gets backfilled in on these. I would never work this way with a stranger I didn't know.

If I was in the smiths position, I wouldn't take work in the door without this. I don't work without work orders.

I guess that allot of my business practices comes from being a stunt man for so long. Before I turn that car over I want to be assured (in writing) that the producer has agreed to my stunt adjustment. After its on film is a bit late to be negotiating the price.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
To TC1,

The BATF has absolutely no authority (or desire) to get into the business practices of holders of FFL’s...as long as they are in compliance with firearms laws.

This is a civil case between a business and a customer, period end of story.

Rick, you are 100% wrong about this. It has to do with owership and transfer. The smith cannot log the gun in his books to one person and out to someone else without permission of the other person. It's the law!

Now as far as the smith fixing the gun, they have no authority, but as for the smith selling the rifle to someone else, yes they do.



Terry

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
To TC1,

The BATF has absolutely no authority (or desire) to get into the business practices of holders of FFL’s...as long as they are in compliance with firearms laws.

This is a civil case between a business and a customer, period end of story.

Rick, you are 100% wrong about this. It has to do with owership and transfer. The smith cannot log the gun in his books to one person and out to someone else without permission of the other person. It's the law!

Now as far as the smith fixing the gun, they have no authority, but as for the smith selling it to someone else, yes they do.



Terry

Excuse me, Terry...but you are incorrect.

I stated in a previous post that the smith could not sell the firearm without first obtaining legal ownership through the legal system. That’s true for anyone in any business that keeps someone’s property when the bill isn’t paid.

The BATF will not touch a financial/business problem between a gunsmith and a customer because they have absolutely no jurisdiction over that. If you doubt that call them up and ask them.

I think we are arguing the same point. My point he should have documentation that he has made a claim on the rifle. A letter to the BATF is excellent proof. This is the route I went when retrieving my gun back from Scott Green and I can tell you it worked for me.

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
I think we are arguing the same point. My point he should have documentation that he has made a claim on the rifle. A letter to the BATF is excellent proof. This is the route I went when retrieving my gun back from Scott Green and I can tell you it worked for me.

Terry

Terry,

I’m sorry, but I don’t think we are.

What I am saying, and what I know to be a fact, is that the BATF will not, and cannot, get involved in a dispute between a gunsmith and a customer unless it involves an alleged violation of a firearms law that falls under their jurisdiction. They have absolutely no jurisdiction to enter into civil law matters...which is exactly what this is.

This is no different (legally) than a person who hasn’t paid for their lawn mower that has been left at a business for repair. The police will do nothing, unless they get a complaint that a “crime†has been committed by either party.

The customer not paying the repair bill is not a crime, and the business keeping the property until the bill is paid is not a crime either.

If the business wants to transfer (sell) the property to a third party, or keep it for their own personal use, then they must file the proper legal papers with a court, and inform the customer, in order to do so.

Hi everybody, thanks for the ideas and information. I am the FIRST to admit I was a fool. The problems with the rifle would not be noticed by anyone without an understanding of guns. The gun is entirely new parts ordered by the gunsmith. The only documentation before the other day was a reciept or two that have "custom 375 rifle" written on them. I stopped payment and brought the rifle back immediately because I didnt think the rifle was worth another $1400 to me and I didnt want to have the gun when the check came back (I sure dont want to give him more to tell his friends) I think Rick is right and I wont give any names. Part of why I dont want the gun is that I dont want to own one of this gunsmiths creations (its embarrasing). When I returned to show the gunsmith what I had found wrong there were no apologies from him, only denials, and I was being entirely calm and civil untill I told him to keep the gun, that I had canceled the check and that it had been very bad dealing with him. His attitude really, really irks me. I dont get mad easily I can only remember being this mad at someone when I caught a guy stealing stuff from my truck and when I got into a fight in 7th grade, And I have never argued over a bill before. The gunsmith has a custom gun that is safe to fire but full of flaws none of us would accept (I admit that some of them are easily fixable) and a deposit that covers all parts. I am wondering if I should expect to have any of that deposit returned since I am refusing to take the rifle now. Is $1400 the cost for being a fool? If so Im all paid up. for anyone who cares, The rifle (a bolt action) would not feed any amunition from the right side of the magazine, The 3 position safety wouldnt go the the safe/locked position without excessive force (both hands), teflon coat dribbled down muzzle to mingle with copper fouling (he charged me for test firing and cleaning gun), rear sight base perched on corners light passes underneath (he claimed ultra precise fitting, told me that it must have warped during baking finish on). There is no caliber stamp on barrel he says he cant make a stamp that looks ok, The first official bill presented to me listed wrong manufacurer of barrel, all components were incorrectly priced, as for labor he says he gave me a deal because barreling a gun (without truing up face/threads on reciever) usually costs $700!!! twice what we had discussed years before, it seems that barreling doesnt include a crown on the muzzle or test firing which cost extra. I admit that I could take the rifle and make it shoot, thats what I tried to do when I took it home, but I found more problems that the gunsmith didnt think existed. $1400 is alot of money to me just so you know, This was to be my first custom gun. Thanks again
jsirm

Rick, I've been though this before. I can tell you the more documentation you have the better off you are. You can prove that you have tried to remedy the situation and if the rifle is sold the smith can't claim the costomer abandoned the rifle. Besides If it was my gun, I would be the plaintiff and not the defendant.

Like I said, I've been through this before and that was the advice I got from another FFL holder, I followed it and it worked for me.

If you or the person with the trouble want's follow a different route than I did that's fine with me.

I have given no advice on to how win the case, just on how to keep from loosing the rifle.

Terry

yahoo,

I’m sorry that you had such a bad experience...but you almost seem as though you are cutting off your nose to spite your face by “giving†the guy the rifle. Personally, I would rather be out $1,400.00 and have the rifle, than to be out the money and not have it.

You never mentioned this (or I missed it), but did he supply the action or did you? If he supplied everything then you obviously don’t have any legal ownership and have never filled out a 4473 form transferring the rifle to you. That could be another problem if you ever decide to take this to court.

One interesting point you raised, for whatever its worth, is that it is a violation of Federal Firearms laws for him not to stamp the caliber on the barrel. See Commerce in Firearms and Ammunition (part 178 of Title 27, Code of Federal Firearms Regulations) subpart F- conduct of business, section 178.92, Identification of Firearms.

Good luck!

hi again, There may not be any documentation that this is my rifle. The FFL form I filled out with the serial number etc. is the only link, could he discard this? other than that, he has a rifle he built and I have reciepts for a deposit. The action was new, ordered by him. I might feel bad if I was able to squeeze all $1400 out of him, I was stupily responsible for the things creation and he would lose money since I doubt anyone would buy the thing from him rather than a new win 70. I may be furious at times but I dont want to lower myself to his level. Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
Rick, I've been though this before. I can tell you the more documentation you have the better off you are. You can prove that you have tried to remedy the situation and if the rifle is sold the smith can't claim the costomer abandoned the rifle. Besides If it was my gun, I would be the plaintiff and not the defendant.

Like I said, I've been through this before and that was the advice I got from another FFL holder, I followed it and it worked for me.

If you or the person with the trouble want's follow a different route than I did that's fine with me.

I have given no advice on to win the case, just on how to keep from loosing the rifle.

Terry

Terry,

First off, until yahoo answers the question I just asked him about whether or not he supplied the action/rifle or the smith did, this argument is moot because if it is the latter he has no legal claim on that rifle at all. He can sue to get his $1,400.00 back, but with no guarantee of winning.

Secondly, I agree with everything you said, but nothing you said told me that the BATF got involved in resolving your problem. You writing them a letter, and them actually getting involved ain’t exactly the same thing.

Caveat Emptor!

Rick, thanks for the information. I figure that I do not want to own the rifle, and I doubt I could sell it for 1400. So Its either sell a $2800 rifle for maybe 1200 to someone and hate every minute of it, or just get out of it now and not spend 1400.

quote:

Originally posted by yahoo:
hi again, There may not be any documentation that this is my rifle. The FFL form I filled out with the serial number etc. is the only link, could he discard this? other than that, he has a rifle he built and I have reciepts for a deposit. The action was new, ordered by him. I might feel bad if I was able to squeeze all $1400 out of him, I was stupily responsible for the things creation and he would lose money since I doubt anyone would buy the thing from him rather than a new win 70. I may be furious at times but I dont want to lower myself to his level. Thanks

Once you sign that form and take delivery of the rifle, as far as the BATF is concerned, it’s yours. Shame on him for delivering the rifle and having you sign the form before he was paid. He has to keep the form and it also has to be entered in his bound book or he’s fu*ked.

I still say that your major screw up (other than contracting with this guy to begin with) was in giving him the rifle back AFTER you stopped payment on the check.

I also forgot that I do have a reciept for the rifle that he sighned "paid in full" but of course thats not true anymore. The FFL background check wasnt needed for me because I have a concealed carry permit, does this matter? I am wondering if I have a real case to recover my money in court maybe I could talk with him and get some of it back, that way he has a small cushion for his loss and he cant say I robbed him.

I was concerned that If I stopped payment on the check and had posession of the rifle I would be stealing the rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by yahoo:
I also forgot that I do have a reciept for the rifle that he sighned "paid in full" but of course thats not true anymore. The FFL background check wasnt needed for me because I have a concealed carry permit, does this matter? I am wondering if I have a real case to recover my money in court maybe I could talk with him and get some of it back, that way he has a small cushion for his loss and he cant say I robbed him.

Pardner,

I didn’t graduate from high school...let alone law school...but if someone had $1,400 bucks of my money and I had nothing at all to show for it I think I would be contacting a lawyer...or a hit man!

quote:

Originally posted by yahoo:
I was concerned that If I stopped payment on the check and had posession of the rifle I would be stealing the rifle.

You sound like an extremely fair and honest person...albiet, a bit naive and easily taken advantage of.

This is a tough situation and this guy is holding all the cards because he has your money and the rifle, which doesn’t give him allot of reason to try and resolve anything.

It would not be very hard for him to show that he had spent $1,400.00 in parts and labor up to this point...and it would be up to you to show that he hadn’t, and I’m not sure how you would go about doing that.

Yes he could prove that he has spent 1400. Yes I was very foolish. This is a small town (I guess that doesnt mean you can trust anybody), and I dont want to give the gunsmith any ammunition against me. Its worth 1400 bucks to me if I can say he ripped me off rather than the other way around, thats if we cant come to a mutual agreement. So I want some money back. He is going to want to sell the rifle since I wont take it. I think you said that there is a process in court that he can retain ownership of it now, if he cant just void the BATF form that he hdidnt have to call in (could he do that?) I still have the deposit reciepts and no gun, but he could show someone the gun and prove that I had it briefly a few days ago. I could claim that it was not what we agreed on verbally and then I dont know what would happen.

Yahoo,

When you filled out the BATF form and dated it, that must be submitted the day it was dated. If the smith let you walk out his door with that action, and the transaction wasn't called in he is in violation of BATF regs. THe action at this point is all being discussed, that is what was required to be transfered.

So based on what I understand from your posts above, you are in fact the owner. And he has the ability to place a mechanics lean on your rifle ( He figures you owe him money ). Now exactly how that is legally settled with a firearm I am not sure. Worst case he could sell the rifle for $100 figure the difference, and take you to small claims court for the difference on the balance owed, which means more money out of your pocket and no rifle even as parts.

I like Rick see you as honest but naive in this. From what you have described I would pay the guy the balance in cash, take the rifle in your possesion, and either chaulk it up to one of lifes experiences, or pursue this in court later. Get the rifle back though, right now you have tipped the cards all in the smiths favor.

Edit to fix unclear.

Rick, again the BATF never got involved, but I had proof through a dated letter to them that I was trying to recover the firearm. If he sold the gun and claimed I had abandoned it, well there's proof in their hands and that's when they would have been involved. Also it's somewhat of an intimidation factor. Sometimes that's all that's needed. After all, a satisfactory end is all I was after and I'll tell you this, it got my rifle and another AR members rifle returned very quickly and that's what I was after. In this case it may very well work to get this guy's gun fixed.

Terry

Rick,

Is there a provision in BATF rules for bounced checks and retaining ownership? Out of my league on this one, I am not a lawyer either, nor do I have a FFL. Basically I am asking if there is a method to pull back the transfer, once it has taken place........unknown by me.

quote:

Originally posted by schromf:
Rick,

Is there a provision in BATF rules for bounced checks and retaining ownership? Out of my league on this one, I am not a lawyer either, nor do I have a FFL. Basically I am asking if there is a method to pull back the transfer, once it has taken place........unknown by me.

schromf,

I looked in by book and couldn’t find anything, but tomorrow I’ll call up my local agent and ask her.

If I had this happen to me I would just make a notation in my bound book for that firearm as “returned, holding for payment on stopped check“...and would flag the 4473 with the same notation. If later on I wanted to sell it or transfer it to my collection from my inventory I would get ownership from a court and reference that in the bound book entry for that rifle.

That’s all just off the top of my head, but it seems like a reasonable way to satisfy the BATF requirements. They just want a record/trail in your bound book for every weapon that comes in or goes out of your business.

Thanks for the information. I dont think the gunsmith would sell the rifle cheap and try to sue me. I believe he is incompetent but I dont think he is willing to do anything like that. If it did come down to that, The only real paper evidence is that I bought a rifle from him on the 13th, returned it the next morning and stopped payment on the check. He has no evidence that that rifle was made for me at all. It might as well be a mossberg off the shelf. So at the worst, Im out 1400 and he might lose money too, though he could probably resell the parts to some buddy, or fool.