Hi All,

I have a .404 Charles Osborne and the three cartridges are a really tight squeeze. so much so that the bolt scrapes the top cartridge and occasionally will leave a dent.

Is it possible to get a drop plate made with a little more room?

If so who can do this? Note the plate will have to be re engraved with the makers name.

Thanks

Wiebe?

I do make bottom metal for the 404, Holds four down and room to single load a 5th., not a drop box.

However, that;s the entire unit..do not make retrofit floorplates..sorry Duane

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
I do make bottom metal for the 404, Holds four down and room to single load a 5th., not a drop box.

However, that;s the entire unit..do not make retrofit floorplates..sorry Duane

So worst comes to worst you can supply the bottom section including plate to fit?

What would that cost? No frills.

Maybe a dumb question, but are you sure you don't have the mag box pinched out of alignment when installing the bottom metal... is it free floating with the spring and follower moving easily? 3 down shouldn't be a problem.

Phil

It's hard to know what to do on your rifle without a look at it. There might be other options. Although, any that require wood alteration, I would stay away from.

Duane's bottom metal, though sweet, would need inletting into the wood and may not line up with the action opening. Osborne would have used their own dimensions for the feed rails and those may not match. A plate is a better option.

That said, you may PM Kerry Stottlemeyer (KcStott). He does piecework machining, and I'm sure can make the plate. After it would need to be sent for engraving and blacking.

If it is just a working plate, and you're keeping the original to keep the rifle together, I don't think I would bother with engraving.

Jeremy

How thick is the bottom metal, 50/1000? How tight is the fit? Would milling a "bathtub" on the underside solve the problem?

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
How thick is the bottom metal, 50/1000? How tight is the fit? Would milling a "bathtub" on the underside solve the problem?

No Mike it is thin. If I can get a plate made that could give me another 1/4 inch I would be happy.

quote:

Originally posted by farbedo:
It's hard to know what to do on your rifle without a look at it. There might be other options. Although, any that require wood alteration, I would stay away from.

Duane's bottom metal, though sweet, would need inletting into the wood and may not line up with the action opening. Osborne would have used their own dimensions for the feed rails and those may not match. A plate is a better option.

That said, you may PM Kerry Stottlemeyer (KcStott). He does piecework machining, and I'm sure can make the plate. After it would need to be sent for engraving and blacking.

If it is just a working plate, and you're keeping the original to keep the rifle together, I don't think I would bother with engraving.

Jeremy

Thanks Jeremy the engraving is simply the makers name.

The photo tells me that my bottom metal is wider to accommodate proper "stack"

The idea of a thicker floorplate with a cavity may be your best bet...With the old floorplate in hand, one should be able to get it pretty close

Might try a commercial mark x follower. They are thinner so if all you need is a tiny bit it might work. It might need modification for the 404 but it is a start.
Don

Another thought is that looks to be a 1909 guard, Jim W’s straddle floorplates are pretty thick so you might be able to get the inside cut deeper to allow for a small pocket. Or maybe a combo of the two. I’d check with him to see if it is possible.
Don

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
The photo tells me that my bottom metal is wider to accommodate proper "stack"

The idea of a thicker floorplate with a cavity may be your best bet...With the old floorplate in hand, one should be able to get it pretty close

Can you do that mate?

quote:

Originally posted by Don Markey:
Another thought is that looks to be a 1909 guard, Jim W’s straddle floorplates are pretty thick so you might be able to get the inside cut deeper to allow for a small pocket. Or maybe a combo of the two. I’d check with him to see if it is possible.
Don

Not really sure what this rifle is and looks like Osborne built it from a number of different parts. Who is Jim W?

Thing is this is my second carry gun so I would like to get it sorted before the season.

quote:

Who is Jim W?

Jim Wisner - posts here as "J Wisner."

At least that's my guess.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Don Markey:
Another thought is that looks to be a 1909 guard, Jim W’s straddle floorplates are pretty thick so you might be able to get the inside cut deeper to allow for a small pocket. Or maybe a combo of the two. I’d check with him to see if it is possible.
Don

Not really sure what this rifle is and looks like Osborne built it from a number of different parts. Who is Jim W?

Thing is this is my second carry gun so I would like to get it sorted before the season.

Sorry. Yes Jim Wisner but sorry I didn’t look at your location. I don’t think he will ship out of the USA.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
The photo tells me that my bottom metal is wider to accommodate proper "stack"

The idea of a thicker floorplate with a cavity may be your best bet...With the old floorplate in hand, one should be able to get it pretty close

Can you do that mate?

No sure about a floorplate....We got a lotta smart politicians here, ya know! There must be machinists in your part of the world that could do this ??

quote:

Originally posted by Don Markey:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Don Markey:
Another thought is that looks to be a 1909 guard, Jim W’s straddle floorplates are pretty thick so you might be able to get the inside cut deeper to allow for a small pocket. Or maybe a combo of the two. I’d check with him to see if it is possible.
Don

Not really sure what this rifle is and looks like Osborne built it from a number of different parts. Who is Jim W?

Thing is this is my second carry gun so I would like to get it sorted before the season.

Sorry. Yes Jim Wisner but sorry I didn’t look at your location. I don’t think he will ship out of the USA.

OK then I could get it to a hunter who could bring it out?

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
The photo tells me that my bottom metal is wider to accommodate proper "stack"

The idea of a thicker floorplate with a cavity may be your best bet...With the old floorplate in hand, one should be able to get it pretty close

Can you do that mate?

No sure about a floorplate....We got a lotta smart politicians here, ya know! There must be machinists in your part of the world that could do this ??

I doubt it. But if I can find a floor plate that needs a bit of trimming sure. I was just under the impression that you gunsmiths had draws full of these things?

Could you thin the sides of the magazine box using a file? This should allow the cartridges to sit lower in the box.

You might try a thinner follower. I replaced a
GMA follower in my 338 RUM with a Wisner magnum follower to correct this problem you are having.
I gained over .062" with better feeding to boot.
Dave

quote:

Originally posted by Jgrabow6493:
Could you thin the sides of the magazine box using a file? This should allow the cartridges to sit lower in the box.

Thankyou and yes I can do that

If you file it, do not file the top of the box. File a taper so the bottom is thinner and the top is the same as it was from the factory.

The top is set to mate up with the bottom of the action. Filing too much there will create a ledge and your follower will hang up. There needs to be a straight transition from the box to the feed rail.

The trick for fat cases is to make the magazine box a trapezoid shape, wider at the bottom, narrower at the top.

Jeremy

Sounds good if you prefer to utilize this bottom metal. Better take some off of the back inside wall as well. Get that round back as far as you can. Every couple thousandths adds up.

A better choice might be to buy a .30-'06 length(3.3" )bottom metal taken from a 1970's vintage Interarms rifle and save the original as it is. The '06 box of the Interarms should be wider at the shoulder area and the '06 shoulder is further forward than the original and shorter 7.65 Argy cartridge.

They run under $175-US-ish here in the states.
Search Interarms (Whitworth) trigger guard, bottom metal

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Jgrabow6493:
Could you thin the sides of the magazine box using a file? This should allow the cartridges to sit lower in the box.

Thankyou and yes I can do that

Deja vu all over again

Well what do you think DArcy? Is an '06 based magazine a better idea than a 7.65 Mauser '09 Argentine for a .404 Jeffery Mauser 98?
My 09 argentine box is .89" wide at the back and .64" wide at the front.
Both my Commercial 98 BM's measure the same at the back and .699" at the other end.
I've heard for several years that a .404 Jeffery will fit into a 98 Mauser .30-'06 based bottom metal.
Am I mistaken?

As always, I appreciate your opinion and expertise.

Sorry if I bored you with my observation.
CB

So much for humor in this crowd

Right now we haven't a clue as to the origin or specs of magazine that was used ??????? no pics of this unit out of the stock, no pics of the underside of the feed well. No pics of the rifle in a broad-side shot???? Is there a 1mm gap between the top of the box and the underside of the action???? Or did the stockmaker place the magazine further away from the underside of the feed well to gain some depth ??????? He can't go very far and would require longer guard screws, unlikely but we don't know.

The reason I ask is I know if I place three 404 cases in a 1909 Magazine that is screwed to the underside of a Std 98 machined for the 8x57 with a 1mm gap that there is no way in hell I can close the bolt, sorry not happening in this life time. So what are we working with ???????

With the stock contoured with radial sides that blend right to the floor plate, bow and front tab inletting a wider assembly is going to be less than idea, read very mouse, as in Micky. Deeper floor plate, perhaps but making it here and sending it to Zambia expecting a drop in installation is well optimistic at best.

I've never handled a rifle made with a Std length 98 Oberndorf fit with a proper Oberndorf 404 magazine. However I have taken apart a few 404's that had removed the side walls from either side of the mag assembly and allowed the rounds to ride up the walnut inletting. The reason being was the std 8x57 magazine assembly was way to narrow for the much wider 404 geometry. One rifle had what looked like a piece of Sterling Silver dovetailed in the wood at the front wall of the magazine as they needed more length for the approx. 3.5"length rounds and came up with that idea. It was beat to hell but still working.

My piss ant suggestion is if the rifle "feeds" well enough to use by placing one round in the chamber by over-riding the extractor and two in the magazine to use it in that manner. Doing so allows you plenty of extra spring compression depth which we don't have now with three rounds. Sort of Hybrid double/bolt gun, there's some more of that non appreciated humor again

Then at the end of the season I'd contact Danie Joubert in SA and see if there is anyway in hell the rifle could be sent to him to correct this great idea, so far its similar to building a sailboat in your basement.

I'm afraid however that getting it out of Zambia and sent to SA and back would be just as easy as digging to China with a spoon from Lusaka.

Yes hundreds of 404 were made this way, some even worked, in a fashion. Jim Wisner recently sent out a mass e-mail tutorial on converting a Std 98 to a 404 properly. It was in depth and spot on in execution and explanation. In this case we can't there, from here due to the finished stock.

I guess you could always change the follower. Oops there I go again

I have an Oberndorf Type A standard length Mauser originally in 10.75x68 then opened up to accommodate the 404 Jeffery cartridge. It has all the original numbered parts including the stock and magazine box, albeit the box has been lengthened but not deepened as the stock is unaltered. Standard hinged floor plate. I can get not quite 4 cartridges down in the magazine, easily able to insert 3 down and 1 up.

I suspect the Type A when produced for the 10.75x68 had a deeper magazine box and stock in that area compared to standard military M98. A give away maybe the trigger shoe shoe which sits higher in the bow than you would expect although I don't have a standard military Mauser to compare.

Could imagine more work on a standard military M98 action to fit the 404 Jeffery or 416 Rigby cartridges especially if looking for 3 and 1.

Eagle this is just a guess on my part but your Type "A" with all the matching Ser #'s and hinged mag assembly had a # 12 (?) mag box with dimensions correctly applied to allow the 10.75mm additional width. Not by any stretch a military magazine assembly

You might measure it and I think you find the back of the box to be .930 to .934 in ID width and approx. .846 to .852 Approx .250 behind the front wall of the box internally.

Converted to 404 who ever did it may have widened the internals some more or left it as is. The over all length would have been extended as well as you know.

The underside of the actions feed well would match the dimensions at the top of the box with the exception of the relief cut areas.

I could be wrong but it's an educated guess.

quote:

Jim Wisner recently sent out a mass e-mail tutorial on converting a Std 98 to a 404 properly. It was in depth and spot on in execution and explanation.

Is that something that is not meant for anyone other than riflesmiths? If not, it would be nice if it could be reproduced here so that everyone could have a basis for understanding what one's gunmaker needs to do to make up a proper .404 from a 98 Mauser action.

I measured a mag box from a K98k 8m/m Mauser and a 1930 Type 'B' Mauser in 10.75x68 Mauser and a FN 9.3x62.

- Outside Dimensions 8m/m 10.75x68 9.3x62
Front Width: .811 .940 .820
Front Height: 1.100 1.211 1.090

Rear Width: 1.003 1.147 1.026
Rear Height: 1.300 1.429 1.300

Length: 3.510 3.525 3.600

- Inside Dimensions
Front Width: .700 .854 .703
Rear Width: .875 .930 .896
Length: 3.310 3.310 3.406

You could also add shims under the trigger guard. I have used both wood and brass shims when the wood has shrunk.

Im surprised that these gunsmith have not suggeted adding a corbon copy of the floorplate but 1/4 inch thick and slightly hollowed out..I had that done, I believe Dennis Olson did it for me and it worked like a charm on a nice old 404 Jefferys..He did another that added one more round to it some years later...I know the gunsmiths that posted here can do that unless there is some reason not to???

Chances are the brass shims would add just enough clearance to allow the bolt to close without denting or gouging the top round. I'm thinking the wood has shrunk between the action and the trigger guard which is causing the issue.

Here's D'Arcy's take on the matter:

_______


Unaltered 98 33/40 with a standard 7 for 8x57 feed well and an unaltered 1909 assembly screwed to the bottom of it, Typical 1mm gap showing between the 2 pieces




Three 404 rounds sitting on the follower and the mag spring. The shoulder area is sticking well Above the right rail of the action. I can depress the front of the cases into the box another .025 with a .700 mandrel in place just behind the shoulder but in this mock up it doest matter





As the base of these cases I have little room (.033) to compress a case deeper into the box with a bolt in place. Note the case rim sticking up well above the top of the rail.






Note how little right rail is holding the case in place and not the length of the case’s straight section, only towards the base. The feed well should be wider at this point under the rail to prevent this, widen the feed well then the rounds coming out of the 09 box will catch at the top of there box if they are not the same width




Jiggle or depress the shoulder area ever so slightly and we have an automatic





Oh Fudge !!!!!!!!!



Watch Video 1


Watch Video 2


Watch Video 3






Here is a simple fixture that mimics the internal side walls on any type of straight wall magazine assembly and allows you to duplicate or alter dimensions. The width between the walls is set up to duplicate the internal specs of the 1909 assembly. Gives you a great visual



Note how the shoulder area is cross stacked crowding the centerline of that shoulder width and the gaps between the case base at the rear and the mag wall. The shoulders area is allowing the stacked rounds to pivot at the shoulder, this is not show room condition. No amount of filing or machining is going to allow you to duplicate the taper of the 404 case within this 1909 magazine box as you'll run out of material to file.





Here's a front view. The rounds are becoming close to being stacked almost in-line





Rear view, in this case we can see the follower, do we change it or leave it ? what is it’s function ? At this stage if we alter the rail width and box width to allow the rounds some breathing room said follower might just stick out of rails when the rifle is empty. We could make it wider but it would drag on the mag box wall creating all that more friction, move the approx. 30 degree shoulder further to the left in this pic ? you could but how. Theses are usually case hardened like Wood Pecker lips and what purpose would it serve ? likely would allow the last round to never stay under the right rail as the last round up.





All purely hypothetical on my part I admit but it does give you an idea of what we’re dealing with

So can we make this lash up work? No, maybe, well sort of.

If you can charge the magazine and rack the bolt back at speed and the top round will clear the rails and enter the chamber smoothly while the rounds contained in the box stay put then we have a winner !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Despite what Echols says

Getting there might take a few a while, I’m an optimist by the way.

Except for the fact that having a freely moving spring loaded follower, one that isn't restricted by the mag well or the floor plate is what gives the stack the ability to take the shape of the mag well (slimmer in the front and wider at the back) and the cartridge to easily slide from the stack.

Has it occurred to anyone that when restocked that it was just inletted to deeply.

A couple small flat washers over the action bolts between the action and floor plate.... if that solves the problem... epoxy them in place.

So far only two of you smiths have even suggested testing things and taking a serious look before cutting things up.

Phil

Gents,

Thank you for all your comments, suggestions and photographs. I took it back to the stock maker and suspect it lacks the 1mm gap. If it is still too tight I could consider taking some metal off or look at the brass shims.

Apologies it is not in my hands at the moment so there is no reference. However if I could have gotten a deep floor plate this would have been a quick fix solution.

Posting these photos for D'Arcy.

This is a depiction of bottom metal sitting 0.060" above normal. Can you imagine how it would feel when you touched off a .404 and the back of the bottom metal hit your second finger? OUCH.

Yuck couldn't put up with that fix, like driving round in your 4x4 with door on first latch to fit a shovel handle in
1 up and 2 down would do me until I could get a proper fix.

Fairgame: Why don't you send me a detailed drawing and I'll see if anything I have comes close