OK, I need some help here as this goes against everything that I've ever learned.

I have a gunsmith on another board saying:

"If you start with a remington 700 action and NEVER assemble it as a rifle, you can build a pistol out of it.
If you buy a remington 700 complete rifle, you can NEVER make a pistol out of it.


I have always heard that this is illegal and every place else that this discussion has come up the prevailing opinion is that once the manufacturer makes the action it is designated as a rifle forever.

I need the US CFR or ATF regulation stating this as it has to be proof, not opinion.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Your gunsmith is correct.......a manufacturer can ship a firearm as a handgun, a long gun or a bare action.......when shipped as a bare action (no stock or barrel having ever been attached), then it's legal status is determined by the configuration in which it is first assembled. If it is first assembled as a rifle, it must always be configured as a rifle......(In the case of TC products, if the frame is shipped with a shoulder stock, it IS legally a rifle)

Below is the text of a letter from the BATF Technology Branch that will confirm the above......I have highlighted the specific info that answers your question. The letter, and many other BATF letters can be found on Bardwell's website at the link below.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/law.html

**************************************************
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter7.txt
October 1, 1992


Firearms Technical Branch
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
650 Mass. Ave., NW
Washington, DC 20226

Dear Sirs:

The Greensboro, NC BATF Compliance Office suggested that I write to
you for information on the following point.

I am interested on whether it is possible to have a commercially
manufactured rifle receiver changed to be legally considered to be a handgun
receiver, and how this can be done. The Compliance Office said that this
might be possible via a "Letter of Determination", but advised me to write
to you about the criteria and procedures.

For example, if a person has a rifle receiver and wishes to have it
built into a rifle-caliber handgun suitable for steel silhouette target
shooting, comparable to the bolt action Remington XP-100 handgun. I
understand that the serial number of this receiver is recorded as being for a
rifle. Could this person have this receiver's serial number considered to be
a handgun receiver? If so, what procedures and paperwork would be
necessary.

Sincerely,

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Oct 29 1992
Dear Mr. XXXXX:

This refers to your letter of October 1, 1992, in which you inquire
about the legality of manufacturing a handgun which utilizes a rifle
type receiver.

26 U.S.C. Chapter 53 # 5845(a)(4), the National Firearms Act (NFA),
defines the term "firearm" to include a weapon made from a rifle if
such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches
or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.

Utilizing the receiver of an existing rifle for the purposes of
manufacturing a handgun would constitute the making of a firearm as
defined above. Individuals desiring to make such a firearm must first
submit an ATF Form 1, Application To Make And Register a Firearm and
pay the applicable $200 making tax.

If an individual were to obtain a rifle type receiver that had not
previously been utilized in the assembly of a rifle, a handgun could be
made and not be subject to the provisions of the NFA. Verification
must be obtained from the manufacturer of the receiver to establish
its authenticity.

We trust the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry. If we may
be of any further assistance, please contact us.

Sincerely your,
(signed)
Edward M. Owen, Jr.
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch

Thanks for the quick reply.

I learn something new everyday.

Isn't this the issue that ended up at the Supreme Court? A TC owner had one receiver and multiple barrels/stocks in both rifle and pistol configuration. The ATF prosecuted him for owning the parts to put a pistol barrel on a receiver originaly sold as a carbine.

IIRC, the Court found in favor of the owner and it is now legal. But shame on you if you get caught with it assembled with a shoulder stock and pistol barrel! They will come after you! I think this is the ruling that paved the way for all the hand rifles buil on Rem 660 actions.

I think this ruling was after the 1992 date of the letter above. Maybe someone with a real memory can illucidate...

well, you can learn something new every day..

BTW, iirc, i read in SGN that the guys making these AK frames and turning them into pistols are taking some heat. Seems that "intention" is now coming into play...

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
well, you can learn something new every day..

BTW, iirc, i read in SGN that the guys making these AK frames and turning them into pistols are taking some heat. Seems that "intention" is now coming into play...

That's the issue that we're are having in California. You cannot import bare pistol frames/receivers nor can you manufacture semiauto, double action handguns. So guys are bending their own AK flats and making single shot pistols, registering them and then legally rebuilding them into semiautos. Modifying existing single shot/single action pistols is legal but the issue is the initial manufacture.

BTW, we cannot get SBR permits in Cali either.

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
Isn't this the issue that ended up at the Supreme Court? A TC owner had one receiver and multiple barrels/stocks in both rifle and pistol configuration. The ATF prosecuted him for owning the parts to put a pistol barrel on a receiver originaly sold as a carbine.

IIRC, the Court found in favor of the owner and it is now legal. But shame on you if you get caught with it assembled with a shoulder stock and pistol barrel! They will come after you! I think this is the ruling that paved the way for all the hand rifles buil on Rem 660 actions.

I think this ruling was after the 1992 date of the letter above. Maybe someone with a real memory can illucidate...

NO, that is not the issue that ended up in the Supreme Court....none of the details you mentioned are accurate......what you are talking about is the Thompson Center court case and it specifically addressed whether it was legal to convert a HANDGUN into a rifle with the TC "carbine kit".......the case had absolutely nothing to do with converting a rifle into a handgun since there were NO factory produced TC rifles made at that time.....every Contender up to that point was sold as a handgun!!!! Sadly, this is a common misconception and someone, someday, will pay the price when they are caught with a Contender or Encore, that left the factory as a rifle, configured as a handgun......

Legally, there is absolutely no difference between:

buying a remington 600, cutting the barrel to 15" and putting it in a XP 100 stock....or, buying an Encore rifle, replacing the stock with a pistol grip and attaching a 15" pistol barrel......both are federal felonies.

If you still believe that TC firearms are somehow exempt from the Short Barreled rifle regulations enacted in the National Firearms Act of 1934, read the BATF letter and the explanation of the legal situation at the following link:

http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=239

"Small Arms Review" magazine does a good job of keeping track of BATF rulings and the court over turning those rulings.

http://www.smallarmsreview.com/home.htm

Joe Waldron is a pro gun lobbyist who has an encyclopedic knowledge of gun laws as well as a good understanding of the current interpretations. He contributes to the forum WA-CCW on Yahoo.

Many times I have written or called the BATF to clarify a law.
Once I had to get my US senator, Slade Gorton, to force the technical department at the BATF to answer my question concerning the definition of a flash hider vs a recoil compensator.

I have called the BATF in Wash DC and I have called the BATF in Seattle.
You may have a local office you can call.

The BATF has ruled that even if you have it from them in writing that something is legal, they still have the right to prosecute you.

I am only an expert on engineering and drawings.
This is only a forum where there seems to be an expertise in beautifying rifles.
You should look further for any advise outside of rifle beautification, given what I have seen here lately

quote:

Originally posted by GonHuntin:

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
Isn't this the issue that ended up at the Supreme Court? A TC owner had one receiver and multiple barrels/stocks in both rifle and pistol configuration. The ATF prosecuted him for owning the parts to put a pistol barrel on a receiver originaly sold as a carbine.

IIRC, the Court found in favor of the owner and it is now legal. But shame on you if you get caught with it assembled with a shoulder stock and pistol barrel! They will come after you! I think this is the ruling that paved the way for all the hand rifles buil on Rem 660 actions.

I think this ruling was after the 1992 date of the letter above. Maybe someone with a real memory can illucidate...

NO, that is not the issue that ended up in the Supreme Court....none of the details you mentioned are accurate......what you are talking about is the Thompson Center court case and it specifically addressed whether it was legal to convert a HANDGUN into a rifle with the TC "carbine kit".......the case had absolutely nothing to do with converting a rifle into a handgun since there were NO factory produced TC rifles made at that time.....every Contender up to that point was sold as a handgun!!!! Sadly, this is a common misconception and someone, someday, will pay the price when they are caught with a Contender or Encore, that left the factory as a rifle, configured as a handgun......

Legally, there is absolutely no difference between:

buying a remington 600, cutting the barrel to 15" and putting it in a XP 100 stock....or, buying an Encore rifle, replacing the stock with a pistol grip and attaching a 15" pistol barrel......both are federal felonies.

If you still believe that TC firearms are somehow exempt from the Short Barreled rifle regulations enacted in the National Firearms Act of 1934, read the BATF letter and the explanation of the legal situation at the following link:

http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=239

Thanks for the quick education. I own neither so I guess I'm safe. I sure feel for all the match guys out there that built unlimited silhoette pistols on remington 660 actions. Probability is they'll never get bothered but its a damn shame they are at risk at all.