who has put a crown in a non crowned barrel,. and how much did it help the accuracy.

What?? A non crowned barrel?? No such animal unless you cut the barrel off and never faced it.

Even a barrel that is faced flat is crowned.
It's not a good idea but it is crowned non the less.

I've found that a blow torch with a small rosebud produces the best crowns after using it to shorten the barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
What?? A non crowned barrel?? No such animal unless you cut the barrel off and never faced it.

Even a barrel that is faced flat is crowned.
It's not a good idea but it is crowned non the less.

quote:

Originally posted by Stokes:
I've found that a blow torch with a small rosebud produces the best crowns after using it to shorten the barrel.

I believe vines refers to recrowning a barrel, which I'm sure both of you understood to be the case- although I have serious doubts about
perception even as simple as this concerning one of you.

ok, maybe i should have used the word TARGET CROWN

quote:

Originally posted by vines:
ok, maybe i should have used the word TARGET CROWN

If the crown is damaged, a recrown, target or otherwise, will restore accuracy that was lost to the damage.


I have not answered your question, that being will target crowning an undamaged existing barrel improve its accuracy.

Lotta variables.

If the original crown is intact and undamaged. re-crowning should have zero effect on accuracy. Now this discounts any effect that the new surface may have as it allow the gasses to vent off in a slightly different direction.
All things being equal it should have no effect. But I've seen stranger things happen.

quote:

Originally posted by tin can:

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
What?? A non crowned barrel?? No such animal unless you cut the barrel off and never faced it.

Even a barrel that is faced flat is crowned.
It's not a good idea but it is crowned non the less.

quote:

Originally posted by Stokes:
I've found that a blow torch with a small rosebud produces the best crowns after using it to shorten the barrel.

I believe vines refers to recrowning a barrel, which I'm sure both of you understood to be the case- although I have serious doubts about
perception even as simple as this concerning one of you.

No actually I though he meant an Un crowned barrel. I've seen dumber things asked on this board

quote:

who has put a crown in a non crowned barrel,. and how much did it help the accuracy

didn't Saeed do some extensive testing on this a while back?

thanks tin can

kcstott-

Maybe we are talking about a barrel that has been Knighted by the King?

quote:

Originally posted by vines:
thanks tin can

kcstott-

Sorry buddy but it's true
Don't blame me for the way you phrased your question.

quote:

Originally posted by WoodHunter:
Maybe we are talking about a barrel that has been Knighted by the King?

Being knighted won't get you a Crown Being KING will. So kill the King and take your crown.

Can someone please explain how to recrown a rifle barrel muzzle.

I have a 1903 mannlicher Schoenauer - ex greek military carbine that has been customised. It used to shoot 3" groups with open sights at 100 meters. I had it scoped. Then i decided to top try and fire lap it to get rid of the very dark bore. I tried to polish it with some grit. None of the got the grooves polished though the lands did. But now the rifle sahoots 12" groups at 10 meters with the odd bullet key holing. I suspect that i have buggered up the crown. I want to try and recrown it before i try to rebarrel the rifle.

I would appreciate any help.

They make hand held crowning tools that are pilot guided in the bore.
I can't stand those. I feel do it right or don't do it at all.
You set the barrel up in the lathe, Indicate it in, cut the barrel to the crown of your choice. i.e. radius, 11 degree, recessed, what ever. with an ever so slight chamfer to the bore with a lathe tool not a counter sink as it will push a burr into the bore.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Can someone please explain how to recrown a rifle barrel muzzle.

I have a 1903 mannlicher Schoenauer - ex greek military carbine that has been customised. It used to shoot 3" groups with open sights at 100 meters. I had it scoped. Then i decided to top try and fire lap it to get rid of the very dark bore. I tried to polish it with some grit. None of the got the grooves polished though the lands did. But now the rifle sahoots 12" groups at 10 meters with the odd bullet key holing. I suspect that i have buggered up the crown. I want to try and recrown it before i try to rebarrel the rifle.

I would appreciate any help.

If it won't shoot any better than that, you screwed up more than the crown I suspect. How much did you lap out of it? I would think the bore is oversize or you are not shooting the ocrrect bullet

quote:

Originally posted by D Humbarger:
didn't Saeed do some extensive testing on this a while back?

yep, he did.. marred the crown, off center, slanted, etc.. and the gun still shot.. just to different POI...

now, if the bore is damaged near the crown, shortening the barrel and recrown may help...

and, of course, at a given taper, the shorter barrel is usually stiffer, and therefore can be more accurate...

then again, sometimes it doesn't workout that way

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
They make hand held crowning tools that are pilot guided in the bore.
I can't stand those. I feel do it right or don't do it at all.
You set the barrel up in the lathe, Indicate it in, cut the barrel to the crown of your choice. i.e. radius, 11 degree, recessed, what ever. with an ever so slight chamfer to the bore with a lathe tool not a counter sink as it will push a burr into the bore.

I always thought the pilot did more damage than the new crown restored.

I use the lathe or more so latly I have spot faced on the mill after tramming to a gage pin

Well Rick Baker just showed me one from Dave Manson that doesn't rotate in the bore. This thing seems to work perfect and is way faster then setting up a lathe.

cool but how does it work?

Jim Kobe,
and I say it's not the crown causing that problem. Kenny

Oh I know it ain't the crown.
12" at 30 feet something else is screwed up bad.

Here's how it works, Long video but worth it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Xpzv1Spsnk

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
Oh I know it ain't the crown.
12" at 30 feet something else is screwed up bad.

Here's how it works, Long video but worth it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Xpzv1Spsnk

That's the crowning tool I use on my beloved M1A. It's the only tool I will put in that bore.

quote:

Originally posted by Westpac:

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
Oh I know it ain't the crown.
12" at 30 feet something else is screwed up bad.

Here's how it works, Long video but worth it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Xpzv1Spsnk

That's the crowning tool I use on my beloved M1A. It's the only tool I will put in that bore.

Then it has to be damn good

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...28fI&feature=related

What do you think of this method? !!

I've turned and faced square, cut 11°, used stub/center/spotting drills, recessed with a smaller OD endmill, center drills, and piloted(BRASS PILOTS) cutters from Brownells both by hand and in my lathe, two stepped with an inner 11° cutter and center drill, cut from bore out and from edge in...they ALL leave a sharp edge to the rifling AND sometimes a burr or two that gets removed by cleaning from the chamber end.

I did my 22-243 rechamber first by just a square cut...fired a couple of 5 shot groups into 1/2"...just started load development...then set up and cut a step recess, fired 2 more 5 shot groups, same size...left the recess and cut an 11° "target crown"...samo samo with the groups and then cut an additional 1/16" 60° cut with a center drill...couldn't see ANY difference in group sizes...but continued on the load development until I hit a bugholer with 60 gr VM's and Varget powder.

I think the recessed square cut is probably the best for hunting. It at least gives some kind of protection if it is deep enough...

I use a center drill or spotting drill for the most part now...half a muzzle diameter wide at least because those drills don't wander off and the recess gives some protection...which one you should pick/use is...who knows...pick which ever tickles your tush or your 'smiths fancy.

Luck

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...28fI&feature=related

What do you think of this method? !!

If I seen someone do that to any one of my rifles I beat the crap out of him

Potterfield, He no runs zee lathe

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...28fI&feature=related

What do you think of this method? !!

If I seen someone do that to any one of my rifles I beat the crap out of him

Your glib response shows your lack of depth regarding time tested proven methods.

You've obviously never learned that a round brass ball with lapping compound will accurately crown a crooked muzzle. IF, given enough lapping time.

What James said, and plenty of it.

I've used all the above methods and even more, and had good success with all of them if done correctly. I have several sizes of brass lapping balls as well as several piloted recess-crowning tools used when the muzzle end is worn too much.

My old original Savage 1895 303 (yes, an original Marlin-made 1895!) shot into about 2' at 25 yds when I got it. I used an unthroated 30-06 chambering reamer to cut a recessed crown and the old Savage began shooting factory loads into less than 2 MOA (MUCH less) with iron sights. Similar results can be expected from worn trapdoor Springfields if the proper bullets are used.

Angled crowns are commonly used to regulate double rifles to the same impact point. Group sizes are unaffected by the angled crown, but POI will change very predictably.
Regards, Joe

I couldn't care less about some half assed blacksmith way of doing things.

Either do it right or don't do it at all.
What Ol' Larry potterfield is doing is half assed blacksmith butchery. He didn't even use a brass ball it was the head of a screw.
Like I said If I seen someone do that to one of my rifles I'd break his hands so he would never be able to pull such crap again.
It may work in a pinch I have no doubt about that. But in the context that it was given. This was the preferred way to do things which it is not.
How many people can file a surface square and flat?
Not in my shop. Not on my weapons. and I have a ball bat to prevent it.

Well some time half ass works.

I had a 93 mauser in 7x57 that was half assed sporterized. That a person gave me because it wouldn't shoot into a 8x11 at 50 yards.

The sporter stock was all broken out on the in side. So after fixing that with a lot of glass bedding. It still wouldn't shoot.

I cut the frist 2 inchs of barrel off with Oh my a hacksaw of all things. Squared it off with a file.

Then of all things mounted a 3/4inch grinding ball into my drill press and used that to crown it. Mounted a ashly scout mount on it.

Now it well put them into a half inch at 50 yards.

I wasn't about to spemd a lot of time or money on a rifle that wasn't worth 50 bucks.

Cheap rifles some times call for cheap smithing

Here I took a all mostly worthless rifle turned it into a worth while useable rifle for very little cost.

As we age and gain experience by listening to others and trying things for ourselves, we find that, like Paul Simon said in his song, "There are fifty ways...."

Some are better than others in some minds, that's all.

Until you've tested the various results against one another, how can you be so sure? Saeed did some tests, ask him!

After testing, I believe you'll find that a smooth crown serves two and sometimes three purposes. Removal of burrs ensures that bullet base exit will be consistent from shot to shot, with no periodic loss of burrs to affect the bullet's steering end; it also ensures that cleaning will not leave behind particles of trash captured by burrs. In rare cases the angle of the crown is used to change the POI.

IMO the rest is for appearance and fashion, the only thing that really matters (for accuracy) is the exact point and angle at which the lands and grooves terminate. JMOFWIW.
Regards, Joe

That is the only time it would be acceptable.

The thing Is i cant believe the spectrum of which the acceptable level of craftsmanships covers with some people. Supper precision actions, facing the C ring to .0001" then we'll finish it off BY CROWNING WITH A FRIGGIN SCREW HEAD
Why does Potterfield show us how to properly chamber a barrel if he's going to finish the opposite end like that.
Yeah on a beater gun sure no problem. On anything else. Chuck it up in the lathe or get Manson's tools
I have a funny feeling the most of the stuff that gets posted here as being Bubba'ed is nothing more then some of our members handy
work.
Sorry I can't accept this as practical or acceptable I have quality machine tools so that I don't have to do BS like this. I have standards I live by and if that was acceptable why do i thread barrels on a decent lathe. I should hand cut the thread with a file and hope for the best
Friggin blacksmiths

kc, iirc it is either Forbes or Jarett that uses a ball for crowning their barrels because it centers itself in the bore and does a good job. I don't think either of them could be called a blacksmith.

The abrasive-coated ball is a fine method for removing small burrs left by the cutting tool's edge. However it's important to remember to rotate the ball CCW (reverse) as much as CW, to prevent the uni-directional CW abrasion from 'drawing out' more tiny burrs in the direction of rotation. Examination under a loupe will disclose this tendency as well as show the correction.
Regards, Joe