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| The simple part is legallity. A silencer is legal but it is licensed by the BATF, but in many states, Washington included, you can own it but not use it. Technically, the brake redirects the gasses leaving the bore to reduce recoil. The total sound is the same but it is louder is some areas, for instance to the sides of the rifle. The silencer deadens the sound and can very effecively muffle it. Totally different critters. Jimmy223, just went through getting licensed. I believe the county sherrif can kill the license. I am not up on the licensing and don't care to be. The real danger, I understand is that all of the sound ever "collected" by the silencers is still in there, just bouncing around looking for a way to get out. Our saving grace is that sound waves want to have not only the first word but they last and they are noisy buggers. So all of them want to be the leader and they cant get organized to find an escape route. If you ever actually open up a silencer, the sound escaping is truely deafening. |
| | | Posts: 4917 | Location: Wenatchee, WA, USA | Registered: 17 December 2001 | 
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| quote: Originally posted by Customstox:
Jimmy223, just went through getting licensed. I believe the county sherrif can kill the license.
There is no "licensing" for individual ownership. It is a transfer, either tax-paid (Form 1 or Form 4) or tax-free (Form 5). A chief law enforcement officer's signature is required for individuals and it can be either the county/parish sheriff, district/county attorney, district/county judge, and a few others (constables, highway patrol commanders, etc.). There is also the option of owning the items via a corporation and a CLEO signature is not required. |
| | | Posts: 475 | Location: Oklahoma City | Registered: 15 March 2003 |
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| Thanks, Chic and JSG,
I know the difference in purpose and what's required (more or less) for buying and using each.
What I wonder is how the ATF determines whether you've got a really quiet muzzle brake or a license-requiring silencer. There must be a definable technical difference. I've seen big muzzle brakes that look very similar to the smallish silencers and which "sound" similar to the silenced .308 I heard in RSA, at least from behind the rifle. So what technical difference inside each of those types of cans indicates that you're potentially a silencer-using-villain?
Some brakes are just directional gas ports drilled into the barrel, but some look like a small can threaded onto the barrel, including the BOSS brake/accurizer on the Brownings. |
| | | Posts: 1730 | Location: Maryland | Registered: 17 January 2004 |
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| Certainly from the ones I've heard, there's no way to silence a supersonic bullet (shock wave is load.) and all the muzzle brakes I've heard have an apparently louder sound.
Put your nose to the grindstone, your belly to the ground, and your shoulder to the wheel. Now try to work in that position!
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| quote: Originally posted by skl1:
I know the difference in purpose and what's required (more or less) for buying and using each.
I state the reason for owning on my Form 4s as "ALL LAWFUL PURPOSES." There are certainly advantages to using a suppressor, such as being easier on your hearing, not annoying your neighbors, and just because you can. quote: Originally posted by skl1:
What I wonder is how the ATF determines whether you've got a really quiet muzzle brake or a license-requiring silencer. There must be a definable technical difference. I've seen big muzzle brakes that look very similar to the smallish silencers and which "sound" similar to the silenced .308 I heard in RSA, at least from behind the rifle. So what technical difference inside each of those types of cans indicates that you're potentially a silencer-using-villain?
Why is someone who uses a suppressor considered a villain? This some kind of Elmer Fudd-type pre-disposition? A suppressor will have an expansion chamber and baffles, similar to a muffler on an automobile. A muzzle brake will redirect the gases from a cartridge to produce a different recoil impulse. |
| | | Posts: 475 | Location: Oklahoma City | Registered: 15 March 2003 |
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| quote: Originally posted by jlongo:
Certainly from the ones I've heard, there's no way to silence a supersonic bullet (shock wave is load.) and all the muzzle brakes I've heard have an apparently louder sound.
Some rounds can be ported via a suppressor to achieve subsonic velocities. |
| | | Posts: 475 | Location: Oklahoma City | Registered: 15 March 2003 |
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| a silencer reduces report... a brake reduces recoil jeffe |
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| Write a letter to BATF technical branch with your question. Explain what you want to do and ask them if it is legal. Then you will get a letter back from them whether it is kosher or not. Keep the letter to CYA. Also check out the discussion forums at www.subguns.com They deal with these types of questions on an everyday basis. |
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| My hearing is getting bad enough (according to my wife anyway), that I've been considering putting suppressors on my bolt-guns for hunting for a while now, but I don't think they're legal for hunting in Alabama.
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Cleachdadh mi fo m' féileadh dé tha an m' osan.
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| | | Posts: 2172 | Location: Highlands of South Alabama, USA | Registered: 28 October 2004 |
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| quote: Originally posted by Ben589:
My hearing is getting bad enough (according to my wife anyway), that I've been considering putting suppressors on my bolt-guns for hunting for a while now, but I don't think they're legal for hunting in Alabama.
Supressor use is either severely restricted or outright prohibited for hunting in all states where their civilian ownership is legal. For example, Oklahoma forbids their use on game animals, but I can use one to shoot coyotes, feral dogs (stray pests), house cats, armadillos that root up my yard, prairie dogs, etc. since those are not considered game animals. |
| | | Posts: 475 | Location: Oklahoma City | Registered: 15 March 2003 |
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| A supressor for a rifle or pistol almost always reduces recoil as well as sound.
There is a company in Utah that produces a modified supressor for a muzzle brake....American Safe Arms.
Long story short they tried (for a long time) to produce a muzzle brake that reduced the noise level as well.
Each prototype they sent to the BATF for testing was returned to them cut in half with a welding torch.
Finally, Browning took an interest in what they were doing and gave them both money (and more importantly) an attorney to work with the BATF.
The BATF finally settled on 4 dB quieter (from baseline) as being "legal" (note that exactly what constitutes a "silencer" is left to the discretion of the agency).
I have two of their muzzle brakes, and like them alot (a 404 Jeffery and a 375 wildcat).
Garrett |
| | | Posts: 987 | Location: Orlando, FL | Registered: 23 June 2003 |
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| quote: Originally posted by N. Garrett:
A supressor for a rifle or pistol almost always reduces recoil as well as sound.
There is a company in Utah that produces a modified supressor for a muzzle brake....American Safe Arms.
Long story short they tried (for a long time) to produce a muzzle brake that reduced the noise level as well.
Each prototype they sent to the BATF for testing was returned to them cut in half with a welding torch.
Finally, Browning took an interest in what they were doing and gave them both money (and more importantly) an attorney to work with the BATF.
The BATF finally settled on 4 dB quieter (from baseline) as being "legal" (note that exactly what constitutes a "silencer" is left to the discretion of the agency).
I have two of their muzzle brakes, and like them alot (a 404 Jeffery and a 375 wildcat).
Garrett
Look at the XM177 moderator. I have a hell of a time figuring out how that thing can be a suppressor, but the BATFE thinks differently. |
| | | Posts: 475 | Location: Oklahoma City | Registered: 15 March 2003 |
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| quote: Originally posted by Customstox:
The simple part is legallity. A silencer is legal but it is licensed by the BATF, but in many states, Washington included, you can own it but not use it. Technically, the brake redirects the gasses leaving the bore to reduce recoil. The total sound is the same but it is louder is some areas, for instance to the sides of the rifle. The silencer deadens the sound and can very effecively muffle it. Totally different critters.
Jimmy223, just went through getting licensed. I believe the county sherrif can kill the license. I am not up on the licensing and don't care to be.
The real danger, I understand is that all of the sound ever "collected" by the silencers is still in there, just bouncing around looking for a way to get out. Our saving grace is that sound waves want to have not only the first word but they last and they are noisy buggers. So all of them want to be the leader and they cant get organized to find an escape route. If you ever actually open up a silencer, the sound escaping is truely deafening.
If I understand you correctly then Chic, the silencer is almost like a time machine. You still hear the noise but just not right now! I'm sure those who had a little trouble understanding how silencers worked-and I now count myself among them- have a better handle on it now. Regards, Bill. |
| | | Posts: 3783 | Location: Elko, B.C. Canada | Registered: 19 June 2000 |
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| quote: Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
If I understand you correctly then Chic, the silencer is almost like a time machine. You still hear the noise but just not right now! I'm sure those who had a little trouble understanding how silencers worked-and I now count myself among them- have a better handle on it now. Regards, Bill.
Incorrect. The sound signature is reduced, but the sound is still instantaneous. The gas first travels into the expansion chamber and then across the baffles and out of the suppressor. The bullet report and possible sonic crack is still present. |
| | | Posts: 475 | Location: Oklahoma City | Registered: 15 March 2003 |
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| JSG,
I was kidding! Regards, Bill |
| | | Posts: 3783 | Location: Elko, B.C. Canada | Registered: 19 June 2000 |
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| N. Garrett, do you have an internet or old fashioned address and/or telephone for American Safe Arms? A 4db reduction in muzzle blast is well worth while. |
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| Vigilliuns,
I will look them up.
I have their address/phone here somewhere....I just gotta dig it out.
Garrett |
| | | Posts: 987 | Location: Orlando, FL | Registered: 23 June 2003 |
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| with my extremely limited knowledge(looking at 2 websites) both manufacturers that were showing rifles with supressors on them also were chambered for rounds that could be loaded down as slow as possible(I.E. the 300 Whisper) to minimize the noise from muzzle blast and shock waves. They had stated that the way to get the best noise reduction was to not only use a supressor, but to shoot real slow bullets(in layman's terms). Although you can still put a supressor on an AR15, the noise reduction would not be as great as a rifle shooting a slower round(so they say). |
| | | Posts: 986 | Location: Columbia, SC | Registered: 22 January 2005 |
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| quote: Originally posted by N. Garrett:
The BATF finally settled on 4 dB quieter (from baseline) as being "legal" (note that exactly what constitutes a "silencer" is left to the
Garrett
WOW!!!! iirc, each db is like 1.75 (that right?) times as loud as the first one... even if it's 1.5 times, that TREMENDOUS!!! 4db is (at 1.5) rough 29% LESS sound.... jeffe |
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| Here is the address/phone for American Safe Arms:
(please check the area code...it changed a while back, and I'm not sure if this is the new one)
American Safe Arms
1240 Riverview Drive
Garland, UT 84312
(801) 257- 7472
fax (801) 785-8156
Garrett |
| | | Posts: 987 | Location: Orlando, FL | Registered: 23 June 2003 |
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| By the way, the muzzle brake is pretty slick looking.
They weld a hollow tube from the shank of the barrel (they match the shank diameter so it appears very smooth) out to the end of barrel, where a threaded cap centers everything.
It looks about like a 10 gauge bolt action rifle when they are done.
I had both rifles polymer coated afterwards....one black the other olive drab.
Garrett |
| | | Posts: 987 | Location: Orlando, FL | Registered: 23 June 2003 |
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| N. Garrett,
Thanks. That's the answer I was looking for. The ATF makes a determination as to whether the device is legal or illegal based on possibly very subjective criteria, like how quiet the device makes the report.
Just Some Guy, my post on suppressor users being villains refers to a guy using too quiet a muzzle brake without special permits and licensing, and thus unwittingly becoming a villain in the eyes of the law and the ATF.
Steve |
| | | Posts: 1730 | Location: Maryland | Registered: 17 January 2004 |
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| ngarrett: thanks |
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| Just Some Guy - One small point. Tennessee does not restict suppressor use while hunting. If you legally possess one i.e. have recevied your tax stamp, you may indeed use it. As always you should verify this information for yourself prior to actually doing it.
I however have a suppressed 300 whisper.
Pmc |
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| I really do not think any muzzle brake will reduce noise for the shooter. Unless you use a large can with baffles and calling it a brake.  Decibel is 1/10th of a bel. It is also defined as the differance in intensity of two sound levels, or 10 * log(Ii/Io). A differance of 10 db equals a 10 times change, 20 db would be 100 times change, 3 db is double the noise change. I shoot 22lr, 300 whisper, 338 whisper, and 510 whisper cartridges. Working on 9mm, 458, 44 and 50 BMG next.
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In my opinion the best accessory to put on a rifle is a silencer.
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| | | Posts: 803 | Location: WA, USA | Registered: 29 December 2003 |
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| quote: Originally posted by skl1:
Just Some Guy, my post on suppressor users being villains refers to a guy using too quiet a muzzle brake without special permits and licensing, and thus unwittingly becoming a villain in the eyes of the law and the ATF.
Steve
Uh, there are no "special permits" or "licensing" for individual ownership. This was stated previously. |
| | | Posts: 475 | Location: Oklahoma City | Registered: 15 March 2003 |
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| quote: Originally posted by PMCAL:
Just Some Guy - One small point. Tennessee does not restict suppressor use while hunting. If you legally possess one i.e. have recevied your tax stamp, you may indeed use it. As always you should verify this information for yourself prior to actually doing it.
I however have a suppressed 300 whisper.
Pmc
If I ever find myself in the woods of Tennessee, I'll keep that in mind. |
| | | Posts: 475 | Location: Oklahoma City | Registered: 15 March 2003 |
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