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| One of Us |
I have friend that is trying to make living as we all are and is going to try bluing our guns. Is there a great place for him to get info like we do here forum or place with info. Thanks Jim | ||
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It depends on how many guns you want to blue; if you are going into the business; fine; you will need about $2 grand worth of equipment. If you are just bluing a few guns, then I recommend rust bluing; equipment cost $20. I have hot blued guns on a coleman stove with a steel tank, but realize that the salts are very dangerous and one drop will chemically burn your skin. But the actual bluing part is easy. It is everything else associated with it that is harder. Disposal is not easy either; just get all the info before you do anything. Yes, Brownells is the best place for it. Bobster, here on AR is the best place for rust bluing info and solution. | |||
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Back in the late 70s early 80s I did bluing. Through my on ffl as well as several gun shops in Houston. Heck I even had Carter's Country. Didn't make much net $$ after the equipment chemical expense probably not much more than minimum wage. Take the gun apart polish clean blue oil reassemble. Bluing takes a few minutes of a several hour process. As dpcd said the chemicals are dangerous. You are laying metal into 300deg lye basically. Best of luck As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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Bubble, bubble, toil and trouble. I have done it in the past. Maybe 50 guns total. It is a lot of work and a pain when running the tanks as Ramrod says. Have not fired off the tanks in some 10 years, but still have all the stuff. I will be back into it when some back burner projects are nearing completion. Obtain the Brownells instructions and follow them to perfection. I use the Brownells salts also. I made my tanks, the salts tank is 1/8" thick carbon steel. Remainder of the tanks are 316 stainless steel. It helps to have a TIG welder! 7 tanks total. The salts tank is at 285 degrees in the photo with a barrel cooking.   The tanks are out back, under a lean to, with three sides. You need lots of ventilation. Do not even think of putting the tanks in the shop, everything will turn to rust. Floor in the bluing area is gravel with rubber horse stall mats on top or pallets. I have made a lot of "accessories" for holding parts, actions and barrels. If you gents are serious about bluing I will take more photos and post. PS water source is important. Lots of chemicals in the domestic water supply for purification and some will ruin a nice bluing job. I use distilled water as our water is from a reservoir that is treated with copper sulfate for algae, which causes spots on the bluing surface, looks like a case of measles. You will need a bead blaster for the matt finish bluing. Takes a small fortune to purchase all the equipment from Brownells, if you are handy you can make most of it, even the burners. | |||
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i did some hot bluing a few winters ago having a fab shop i could make my tanks burners etc. in the end i think i made a hellova mess and about $20. the best bluing setup i have seen is one that we made some stainless tanks for vertical immersion that takes alot of material to fill them but ends up with a very consistent system | |||
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I forgot how the salts would basically climb out of the tanks. Had a seperate room what a mess. One of the best days in my life was when I gave the set up away. No one has mentioned.the buffer or buffers. About a dozen wheels and compounds. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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well, he'll need an FFL, insurance, a special area, keep it WELL away from machine tools, it's hot, takes forever from start to finish, and very few people wish to pay for the actual labor -- when i started bluing, it was because i had quote a few of my own to do, as I WAS one of those that thought the fees were too high -- now, i gladly pay someone else to do it, even though they can't be making (clearing) 10 bucks an hour on it i GAVE my setup away .. though i should have kept the stainless tank for boiling plumb brown opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Yes on all accounts!!!!!! There is no money in bluing. It is a necessary evil if a guy is building rifles and needs to blue. Rust blue is best for the high dollar custom jobs. My favorite hunting rifle has Robar Roguard. | |||
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Tell your friend to do designer sunglasses instead..HAR! | |||
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. It depends on how, and what type of caustic bluing you want to do. People express a lot of fear and apprehension toward bluing, but I caustic blued about 10 guns per month for 20 years and never burned myself (outside of some itch spots)or had the salts blow up on me once. I also did some industrial bluing. Of course I went to CST to learn and they basically over safety-muggated us and after 35 years of gunsmithing I still have all of my fingers, toe's and eyes and I have only been shot once. But that was in church so it doesn't count. The point is, if get some training and you work with a certain amount of fear and common sense it's perfectly safe. Profitable? That's different. If you want to be profitable you need a bit more equipment than most people are outlining. 90% of bluing properly is polishing. For polishing you need equipment. When I was doing it for money, a minimum of three buffing pedestals is almost mandatory. Baldor buffers start at $500 for 3/4 horse and if you want speed and clean cuts you need 10 or 14 x 2 inch wheels and power. Also a belt sander, a good one. Baldor, Wilton Square wheel or Burr King is almost essential. I think the Baldors are $1,500 and for Square wheels or Burr Kings, they can go up to $3,000. The bluing setups are about $2,000 minimum and when you start adding more tanks and venting the sky is the limit. If you do it on the gun end, don't expect to make much more than $30 per hour after expenses if you are really efficient. By that I mean having ALL OF THE EQUIPMENT (not the $2,000 minimum), a couple of years experience plus, making your own salts and burning natural gas. If you do industrial bluing then that all goes out the window. Even though there is no polishing, not many people like industrial bluing because it requires huge tanks and it's hot, back breaking work. Basically you are taking contracts from machine shops and black iron works to blue their products at a price per pound rate. Most of these outfits charge between $1 to $4 per pound or $100 for a single tank cycle. There can be a lot of money in that work but you have to be a real pain whore to do it. It also comes down to location, location, location. You have to be smack dab in the middle of a large group of machine shops or black iron works to keep your shipping costs down. These customers are not like gun customers either. Their part of the work is done and them getting paid, hinges on getting it back from you. While gun people will wait weeks or months. Machine and black iron work shops want estimates on hours for return. Like Duane said: Sunglasses ! Everyone likes the limp wristed guy in the purple suit, driving Ferrari 488 GTB that designs the sunglasses. No one likes the smelly guy in the George Utley bibbs, driving the old pickup who does bluing. When I was a kid. I had the stick. I had the rock. And I had the mud puddle. I am as adept with them today, as I was back then. Lets see today's kids say that about their IPods, IPads and XBoxes in 45 years! Rod Henrickson | |||
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THANKS for info.It was funny he had Brownells 28 pages of bluing .... What do you folks feel is fair price to charge for bluing of rifle? | |||
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There is no fair price. Add up all of your expenses in a year from rent to band-aids. Then add your gross wage. Figure out what your equipment is worth and amortize it over 5 years. A nice polished blue on a gun including phone calls,interruptions, triage and egress will take about 8 hours. A crappy sandblast blue will cost you 3 hours. Do the math. Most single entrepreneurs have to do about $400 CAD per day or $307 USD per day to be viable based on 260 work days per year and take home $30,000 per year. You might think making $80,000 a year to make $30,000 sounds wrong. But that's how the numbers eventually work out. Business is expensive. And remember. The less you do, the less you make. EXPONENTIALLY ! If you do it as a part time gig or as a hobby, it will end up actually costing you money to do it, even though you charge for it. You still have expenses even if you aren't working. When I was a kid. I had the stick. I had the rock. And I had the mud puddle. I am as adept with them today, as I was back then. Lets see today's kids say that about their IPods, IPads and XBoxes in 45 years! Rod Henrickson | |||
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Off topic a bit as usual, but. Is it just me, or does anybody else get the impression that Duane Weibe once had a VERY TRAUMATIC, experience with someone in the designer sunglasses industry?  he he heWhen I was a kid. I had the stick. I had the rock. And I had the mud puddle. I am as adept with them today, as I was back then. Lets see today's kids say that about their IPods, IPads and XBoxes in 45 years! Rod Henrickson | |||
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When these folks say that hot blue chemicals are caustic, that is almost an understatement. After one near mishap I went to wearing knee height rubber boots, a long sleeved Army Chemical Corp rubber coat that was below knee length, elbow length rubber gloves and a full face shield. Now some will tell you that is overkill, some may say it still wasn't enough. I quit hot bluing in favor of rust bluing many years ago. As mentioned earlier, there is no money in bluing. Dave In 100 years who of us will care? An armed society is a polite society! Just because they say you are paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get you. | |||
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I had a number of jeans with holes below the knees and holes in my shoes. Yep apron and rubber gloves. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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| Moderator |
butcher's vinyl apron, dedicated boots (and you'll replace them every 60 days) and heavy PVC gauntlets - and the gauntlets smell like musty feet in a week, with a face shield, and only wear old, throw away clothes - and a bandanna/kerchief around your neck -- and a brimmed hard hat -- "caustic" doesn't sound so bad, right? so many people don't get that acid and caustic are so related -- imagine 295 degree battery acid on your skin .. it leaves more than a scar, it leaves A (BAD) memory caustic burns SUCK so, you might take the hidden hint that those of us that have done this think it's not a great idea for making a living -- but you can go broke the first time you loose a custom scope ring as it's alum not steel, and costs your the profits from 10 other jobs .. as it melts like wax in an over opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Not to mention the hours trying to find that little spring, pin or ball bearing you lost. I do remember the day I dropped the trigger guard in the tank. Oops it wasn't steel. So after the delay in finding the part (lucky basic Remington) paying for it the next several times were basically free as I paid myself back for the part. If you are going to sub contract with a gunsmith or store etc. Don't forget they will be happy to mark the cost up. I quit when I figured out they were making as much as I was and only accepting the gun, calling me so I would come pick it up and return.  As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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We had a gunsmith in town that hired a good old boy to disassemble, bead blast and hot blue the firearms that came into the shop. Guy got a hold of and older Remington pump shotgun with an aluminum receiver. So long receiver, so long job. Dave In 100 years who of us will care? An armed society is a polite society! Just because they say you are paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get you. | |||
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Like speerchucker says, Proper polishing is the key, and that's not learned over night or from a book/video. There's no substitute for having someone show you how and then "take apart" everything you've done wrong when you try it. Plenty of "hacks" around that can and will deface every piece of gun metal they get their hands on. Running tanks isn't rocket surgery if you can read and follow instructions. I'd suggest a NRA Summer Gunsmithing course in bluing before I'd run out and buy/build a bunch of equipment. To repeat what's been said, "it's nasty work with low pay". Wonder why there are few bluing shops? | |||
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Round someone's corners or egg shape a couple holes. One  customerAs usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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If you buy salts the industry uses DuLite salts, I have blued guns for over 25 yrs, and its a mess. Have a separate area to do it in. you need good buffers that give no vibration on the wheel. I went to Trinidad on a summer NRA course to learn the basics. I had shops that fed me work, some broke the guns down and some did not. So you charge accordingly. Ramrods right sharp edges and no egg shape holes. A bead blaster is a good thing to have also. | |||
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Is $150 .00 dollars a fair price ? | |||
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NO! Go to www.glenrockblue.com and click on their 2017 price list. That should give you an idea of professional bluing prices. You can not break even working for those who don't want professional quality work. There used to be a 'guy' in my local area that didn't do "professional" quality work. I'm very glad I never sent him any work, after seeing the mess he could make of just about any gun metal ('washed-out' screw holes, what should have been sharp corners rounded off, lettering/numbers washed-out/removed/defaced). The color was nice, but he knew nothing about proper polishing. I think a monkey could be taught to run tanks, but you're not going to teach him to polish, no matter how many bananas you give him. | |||
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| One of Us |
9 times out of ten a guns value is cut by 1/4 or cut in half after being blued by a hobbyist. So if you give them a $400 gun, you can expect to get a $200 or $300 gun back. Some times you get a bucket of parts back too. Sometimes you never get anything back. There are exceptions but not often. When I was a kid. I had the stick. I had the rock. And I had the mud puddle. I am as adept with them today, as I was back then. Lets see today's kids say that about their IPods, IPads and XBoxes in 45 years! Rod Henrickson | |||
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There will be a small portion of the potential market willing to pay glenrock's pricing. Those that do won't pay it to someone just starting. You have to build a reputation for quality to get quality pricing. In my "opinion" the vast majority will want prices half or less than glenrock has on their price list. Inflating my late 70s pricing your $150 is a touch higher. Near term you are going to be dealing with locals. If you go ahead good luck. I had missed woodhunter's water comment earlier. When I moved from Houston to WTX the water was so bad I had to use bottled water. That was the final straw. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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Glenrock's prices are in the ball park, and I guarantee he ain't driving a Mercedes. | |||
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This is so true. Do that 'average' hobbyist job on just ONE gun that belongs to someone who "knows the difference" and guess what that'll do to a 'reputation'. You can not charge what customers "want to pay", you must charge what it costs you to do the work plus a respectable profit. If you don't value your "time", don't charge for it. See how long that lasts...... | |||
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THANKS .. | |||
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Another word of warning: these caustic salt eat concrete floors. Dave In 100 years who of us will care? An armed society is a polite society! Just because they say you are paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get you. | |||
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Off topic a bit, but after not being able to find anyone locally, I sent two parts to Glen Rock last month. I'm amazed, and emailed them to that effect. They blew my expectations out of the water with a blue that is both shiny, deep, and BLACK all at the same time. I'll be sending them more parts as soon as I get them finished. They look better than a set of barrels I had rust blued a few years ago. Worth every nickel and then some in my opinion. Bob DRSS "If we're not supposed to eat animals, why are they made out of meat?" "PS. To add a bit of Pappasonian philosophy: this single barrel stuff is just a passing fad. Bolt actions and single shots will fade away as did disco, the hula hoop, and bell-bottomed pants. Doubles will rule the world!" | |||
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Rod How in the world did you manage to get shot in church? I have read some pretty interesting posts from you but this one has got to be hair raising.  Craftsman | |||
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After reading through the whole thread, that is the one thing that jumped out at me as well  | |||
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I worked at a large gunsmith shop in east Texas years ago. There were five of us. One man was doing most of the hot blue. I pitched in when he got behind sometimes. The shop owner required us to do 90% of the polishing by hand. Only using the buffing wheel for final grit to blend the polishing marks. Labor intensive but helped insure proper technique, flats remained flat and accurate curves, sharp edges, no dishing of holes and no washed out lettering. We worked on commission so time was not much of an issue for the shop owner. The good thing was I learned a great deal about proper filing and polishing for a professional job. One day my co worker was bluing a Weatherby Mk V. The trigger guard and floor plate was very heavy so assuming they were stel he did not check them with a magnet. Upon retrieving the parts from the bluing salts all he had was a paper thin shell of them. Kinda looked like an insect that had shed his shell. My friend did not make any money on that rifle after he paid for replacement parts. We also learned to test fire for function before tearing the gun down and bluing. You would be surprised to learn how often customers bring in guns for rebluing that will not function then after bluing insist it was working before rebluing. I hot blued for years in my shop. It is almost a requirement when you are doing lots of repair. Now that I don't accept repairs I only blue when associated with building a rifle or occasional re barrel. Hot bluing is hard work, hot, dirty, fumes, dangerous and expensive chemicals. It takes only a moment to overheat your bluing bath and ruin the whole expensive bath. Polishing is hard dirty work. Learning to polish properly is a long learning curve. The best deal going is to be a gunsmithing student at Trinidad State College. They run the bluing tanks every Thursday. Have your parts polished and ready and they will run them through the hot bath no charge. Craftsman | |||
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One archery club I shot with years ago rented the church basement, in a one horse town of 35 people, a three legged dog, a broken tailed cat and of course the horse. The old basement was the perfect place shoot our bows in 4 nights a week in the winter. One year we got the hare brained idea to make some snails and shoot our 22 pistols one night a week to add a bit of variety. The walls were dirt and held back by railroad ties and we couldn't hurt anything so the pastor was fine with it. So we talked to the RCMP and they gave us the OK. We shot there for about 2 years with no problems. One evening the kid shooting next to me got a cartridge jammed in a Walther OSP and while he was monkeying with it the thing went off. I felt the bullet catch my pants pretty hard and while he was apologizing for the one millionth time I gave it a half look and found the hole. After a minute of excitement we decided that it was no big deal and went back to shooting. A couple minutes later I started to feel something a bit squishy in my boot so I pulled it off and of course it was full of blood so off came my pants and about 15 mindless experts were examining my perforated appendage and estimating my chances for survival. I was actually quite fine but they decided to bodily carry me out to a truck and haul me off 50 miles to the nearest hospital. The doctor had a look at it and muttered a bit and I asked him if he was sending me to Edmonton to have the bullet pulled out. By that time some one had gone down to the liquor store and had come back with a couple 24s of beer and after a couple himself, the docs prognosis was that: "the little 22 short had lodged in the mussel in my leg and fishing it out would do more harm than good." After explaining how it would remain inert and harmless he was inclined to give me some pain meds, no stitches in case it had to drain, about 17 injections in various parts of my body with a turkey baster with a spike on the end and send me home to keep an eye on it. But first, another beer. He told the nurse to bandage it and after rooting through every cabinet in the place she came up with a band-aid and plaster it on. That of course was cause for yet, another beer and right about then this 18 foot RCMP officer came in with his little weasel sidekick. He heard there had been a shooting and of course he was ready and primed for action. Well of course he had to ask what had happened (BAD IDEA) and got 15 stories, all almost the same (they all happened in Alberta) from everyone at once. Then it dawned on him to ask who the hell had been shot? (dumb question, I was the one sitting on the table with no pants and a band-aid) Everyone looked at me so of course the cop looked at me too. He then asked me if I wanted to press charges, to which of course I replied: "NO"! He then asked where I had been shot and I pointed to the band-aid and he bent down for a closer inspection and muttered: "This fucking band-aid has a picture of Snoopy and Woodstock on it!" The weasel asked if he should right that down too and the big cop told him to fucking forget it. They were not even going to report such a stupid waste of time and he stormed off with a certain air of disgust. The weasel sort of looked around, sniffled and scurried out after him. I actually did get sick as a dog latter on and ended up in the Calgary hospital for a day. Not because of the bullet. The doctor had given me some Tylenol IIIs which I had never taken before and it turns out that I am deathly allergic to Opiates. And that's how I got shot in church. It was actually kind of anti climatic because you probably expected a gunfight, cowboys, Indians, a war or at least an angry farmer. Sorry-bout-dat. That's kinda the way I remember it, but we were pretty drunk near the end. At least you know better than to ask a Kanadian how he got shot in church ever again! When I was a kid. I had the stick. I had the rock. And I had the mud puddle. I am as adept with them today, as I was back then. Lets see today's kids say that about their IPods, IPads and XBoxes in 45 years! Rod Henrickson | |||
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| One of Us |
 Epic story! | |||
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Last time I saw him it was an SUV. If a customer insists of Caustic Blue or Cerakote, Doug get's the job.  Aut vincere aut mori | |||
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Craftsman
That's no shit...when I retailed and done blueing and repair someone was always trying to slip something past you. I still have all my set up...bought it 20 years ago and don't have much in it compared to now. I pretty much just do my own now and to me it's kind of relaxing, don't know why but I enjoy it. Now that all these paint on finishes are here that is what I get asked about the most these day...I don't do it. _____________________ Steve Traxson | |||
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An old but very interesting book for anyone wanting the background to 'firearm blueing and browning' is the book titled exactly that by R H Angier. First published in 1936 it has been reprinted in later years. Some of the chemical names in the book have been superseded in our modern vocabulary. I purchased the book when I got into blueing decades ago and used one or other of the solutions but like some posters have already said, unless you are doing a lot of blueing it is an expensive and messy process to set up and keep operating. I visited Walter Gehmann's workshop in Stuttgart many years ago (he was a World champion shooter and also responsible for reviving the Vom Hofe line of cartridges) and what always comes to mind when firearm blueing is mentioned is my memory of the messy, bubbling and fuming caldron of blueing tanks in his old workshop. | |||
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On the contrary, if you dissect what Angier teaches and apply it in the proper way rust blueing becomes like child's play. Cheap and without the nasty 390 F boiling tanks of lye and fertilizer. Bob www.rustblue.com | |||
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