I've noticed that the small ring 1910 Mexican
mauser is popular here.

Is the Kar 98 or other mauser small ring 98s
good enough for a 7X57 using modern loads? Or
is there a strength issue?

Would an "intermediate" action large ring be a
better choice?

Thanks,

Don

isn't the k98a a small ring large journal?

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
isn't the k98a a small ring large journal?

Yes, the Kar has the small ring but large threads. The earlier versions were known for becoming takedown models. Later production made some machining changes that corrected this proble. If I am not mistaken the polish versions do not exhibit this tendency.

I'd be inclined not to use "Modern" loads unless I knew which one I had. Unless you are intent on making a lightweight sporter where every ounce counts an intermediate may well be a better choice.

Thanks Jeff and Z,

I was not aware of this problem, and that's why
I asked. Glad I did!

Thanks again guys.

I have a Kar98 in 7 x 57 that shoots 1.25-1.5 inch groups, even with warm loads. It has been checked for headspace and is fine. It's got a military barrel cut down to about 19 inches. I'd like to hear some other opinions and actual real life experiences with the Kar98... Anybody? I'd like to rebarrel mine to .257 Roberts.

MKane160

In other words, you want someone to say yours is ok.

If you are monitoring your headspace then that is half the battle. It's the same approach the germans took. When the receivers rings started showing strech they removed them from service. I'd advise the same.

quote:

Originally posted by Poleax:
In other words, you want someone to say yours is ok.

If you are monitoring your headspace then that is half the battle. It's the same approach the germans took. When the receivers rings started showing strech they removed them from service. I'd advise the same.

You talking to me?

NOPE! I am considering buying a mauser
action for a 7X57 and was wondering why others made the choices they did. Now I know why
most don't choose a KAR 98! So, my question was a valid one. Just trying to save myself some "unlearned" grief by asking those who know more than I.

Best bet for me might just be an HVA or an
intermediate Yugoslav? I'll have to decide on
small ring or shorter action. And, of course,
the HVA doesn't have the loading notches of a military action.

I'm still in the looking at "options" stage! I
haven't ruled out a SS Winnie in SA either.

quote:

Originally posted by Don Slater:

quote:

Originally posted by Poleax:
In other words, you want someone to say yours is ok.

If you are monitoring your headspace then that is half the battle. It's the same approach the germans took. When the receivers rings started showing strech they removed them from service. I'd advise the same.

You talking to me?

NOPE! I am considering buying a mauser
action for a 7X57 and was wondering why others made the choices they did. Now I know why
most don't choose a KAR 98! So, my question was a valid one. Just trying to save myself some "unlearned" grief by asking those who know more than I.

Best bet for me might just be an HVA or an
intermediate Yugoslav? I'll have to decide on
small ring or shorter action. And, of course,
the HVA doesn't have the loading notches of a military action.

I'm still in the looking at "options" stage! I
haven't ruled out a SS Winnie in SA either.

No, it was intended for the previous poster. Were it me, for a 7x57, I'd shop for a SR Mexican 98. The one you have might be ok but it would need to be looked at to determine if it might be predisposed to stretch. The Yugo's would be fine but not quite as trim.

Poleax, I assume you are meaning stretch of the rings lengthwise, not radially, correct? I do not have an original dimension to measure length to. Do you? How much stretch is too much stretch? One last question, did the Germans have trouble with stretch in the original chambering (7x57) or when they were altered?

Thanks for the information...I try to learn something every day.

MKane160

quote:

Originally posted by MKane160:
Poleax, I assume you are meaning stretch of the rings lengthwise, not radially, correct? I do not have an original dimension to measure length to. Do you? How much stretch is too much stretch? One last question, did the Germans have trouble with stretch in the original chambering (7x57) or when they were altered?

Thanks for the information...I try to learn something every day.

MKane160

You are right that the ring stretches lengthwise if there is a problem. Constant monitoring with a headspace gage will tell if there is any stretch present. Well, it will alert you to increasing headspace anyway. At that point you can remove the barrel and compare the distance to the inner shoulder to what it was when you rebarreled.

The Germans had these issues when the rifles were still in service. They were originally chambered in 8x57. Barrel changes can exacerbate the situation.

The original small ring 98 was the Kar98k in 8x57JS, made in Germany prior to WWI. These had large ring barrels, and there were issues with the recievers because of it. They were discontinued by the end of the war, and Germany never again made a small ring 98.

In 1933, the Czechs began making small ring 98's with a small ring barrel, for the police. During the German occupation of WWII, these carbines were modified into the G33/40. Brno (Brunn in German) also used this action for commercial sporting rifles from 1942 to 1955.

KurtC, do the small ring, small thread Mausers have the same footprint as the Kar98? I'm clinging to my Kar98 because it has a beautiful, very small stock that looks like it was shrink wrapped around the Kar98 action. And, would a .257 caliber barrel, with more metal in the thread area than a same outside diameter 8mm barrel, be more stable in the Kar98 action? Or is this just a theoretical pipe-dream of mine, trying to justify keeping my Kar98 and turning it into a .257 Roberts?

Ahh, shit.

MKane160

The problem with the Kar98 was not in the barrel, it was with too little receiver metal surrounding the large ring barrel.

The same idea was tried 50 years later by Browning in the 1960's. They sold alleged "small ring" commercial mausers that were really large rings with the recievers turned down to a smaller profile. They were only made in .243 and .308, and I have never heard of any problems with them. Of course, there were a lot of improvements in metallurgy between 1910 and 1960.

The other small ring military and commercial 98's have the same basic footprint as the Kar98, but they are not identical. If your Kar98 shows no signs of weakness in 8x57, it will probably hold up fine in 7x57 or .257R. However, I would not invest too much money into such a conversion, and you may also encounter gunsmiths who will not want to do it for liability reasons.

I would recommend finding a Brno 21 or 22, or a Mannlicher-Schoenauer in the caliber of your choice. You can occasionally find beater Brno's, should you wish to rebarrel.

Thanks, all, for the enlightenment. BTW, my Kar98 is a 7x57 now, so I guess it's been rebarreled at some time in the past. It is, however, a military barrel.

MKane160

Here is my limited knowledge of WWI era 98's.

The large ring German rifles had Gew.98 on the left side. The small ring German carbines had Kar.98AZ on the left side. (A means bayonet lug, Z means stacking ring). Both large and small ring 98's had the arsenal and year marked on top of the receiver ring, in large characters.

Any rifle made in Germany that was chambered in 7x57 would have been for export, usually to a Spanish colony. These would normally have the arsenal marked on the left side rail, and the crest of the new owner marked on top of the receiver ring. I cannot say for certain whether any small ring Kar98's were ever made in 7x57 for export.

If your rifle looks to be all original, and there other markings on it, describe it to the folks on this forum: http://www.gunboards.com/forums/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=4
They have forgotten more than I will ever know about military 98's.

How about a commercial Husqvarna HVA?

Jeff

I believe the small ring Husky HVA (also S&W A, B, C, D &E) uses a small ring 98 barrel, but the action itself is not a 98.

Just to add to the mix; The 03 Springfield was a small ring Mausewr. A 93 Mauser wil almost drop into an 03 stock.
Good luck!

The HVA 1600 series is a small ring mauser-type action that has the same footprint (?) as a small-ring mauser. The biggest visible difference is in the bolt-stop. Also, the bolt shroud is somewhat different. All that said, they build up into a lovely lightweight rifle, but are strong enough that a lot were built a magnums.

Dave

The HVA small ring models also do not have a self-locking extractor, and the factory safety locks the trigger instead of the firing pin. I forget if it locks the handle.

I had a S&W Model D once. It was a beautiful full stock rifle that shot nicely.

The commercial small ring HVA cocks on openning like a 98 and also has the 3rd lug. The left locking lug looks like a M96 but not split. The receiver does not have a "C" ring and the slide safety locks the bolt.

It was also manufactured in magnum calibers, such as 308 Norma and 358 Nomra. They felt the small action thread size was adequate for a magnum case.