Followed the instructions, back off on weight adjustment screw, the over-travel screw and the sear engagement screw. Slowly turned the engagement screw in until the dropped the "hammer". Then backed the engagement screw out the recommended 1/3-1/2 turn.

The problem is that even the "1/3 turn" setting, there is an awful lot of takeup. I repeated this step several times and found that a safe setting was at a little less than a 1/4 turn. Completed the adjustment on the overtravel screw and got the weight to about 3# (have to check with trigger pull gauge tonite). Slammed the bolt a couple dozen times and did the "engage safety -- pull trigger -- disengage safety" test about 20 times with no problems.

My question is this:

In your opinion, is the 1/3 - 1/2 turn a little conservative on the safe side or did Big Green make a change to their triggers?

I guess with mass produced components, every trigger is different.

BTW: I did coat all 3 screw heads with 4 coatings of nail polish.

We now return you to your regularly-scheduled "Remington vs. Jewell" pissing contest.

If you don't mind parting with some cash, get a Jewell. You can actually notice the difference there.

The Remington M700 sear engagement screw is threaded 6 x 40. That means each turn adjust the trigger by .025 inch.

To adjust this trigger, especially since it has a very serious design flaw, to less than .020" engagement is pure foolishness and dangerous.

Change the trigger to one of the aftermarket units that doesn't have the extra �connector� part. THAT is the only way the M700 trigger will be safe.

I hope the idiot suggesting less than .020 sear engagement has a lot of insurance and a very strong constitution. It's just a matter of time before somebody gets killed as a result of those ridiculous and dangerous "directions".

I'll be more than happy to explain the flaws, faults, cures, and problems with anyone here, but first please make an attempt to understand the mechanism.

�I�ve never had a problem� is NOT an argument! There�re over 4 million rifles and more than 50 years of history to examine. The problems are all very well documented in sworn testimony and in company documents now available for your inspection.

Take the time to learn the gun and how it fails and then make up your own mind.

quote:

---

Originally posted by JBelk:
To adjust this trigger, especially since it has a very serious design flaw,...

...THAT is the only way the M700 trigger will be safe.

I'll be more than happy to explain the flaws, faults, cures, and problems with anyone here, but first please make an attempt to understand the mechanism.

�I�ve never had a problem� is NOT an argument! There�re over 4 million rifles and more than 50 years of history to examine. The problems are all very well documented in sworn testimony and in company documents now available for your inspection.

Take the time to learn the gun and how it fails and then make up your own mind.

---

Ah, still living off of this huh? I thought the Barber case was over. Still have an ax to grind I guess....

Is the Barber case over, what was the verdict?

Gary, people are still getting killed. The latest that I am aware of was a 16 year old boy from Wyoming his name was Jerod he died as a result of an alledged FBO (Fires on Bolt Opening) malfunction on Jan.25,2002 the 30.06 bullet struck him in the head.

I think it is sad when the Pro Gun community does not care about its own and turns their backs on safety issues of this nature and address their responsibilities, people will just wait till the liberals do it for us I guess through regulation.

IMHO, education alway's beats regulation! I do not buy into the premiss of see no evil,hear no evil, speak no evil a rose by any other name is still a rose ;o)

Augustis ><>

[This message has been edited by Augustis (edited 03-31-2002).]

FYI, more food for thought?
Its not too late to turn back, take the rifle to a*Qualified* Smith.It is apparent you might be struggling with the adjustments and no one seems to want to give you any real advice. After an A/D is not the time to find out you might have messed up the adjustment because you just assumed all of the liability for property damage, injury, death that the A/D could result in.

Just My 2 Cents.

Regards, Augustis ><>

http://www.serveroptions.com/ubb/Forum5/HTML/002607.html

[This message has been edited by Augustis (edited 03-31-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Augustis (edited 03-31-2002).]

What amazed me was, in spite of the "layer-proof" trigger, after I made my adjustments, I had MORE CREEP i.e. more sear engagement than I had before. My sole purpose was to reduce the WEIGHT from a (now measured) 7# to what I consider a field servicable 3-1/2#.

My original question/comment was that I thought that the recommended 1/3-1/2 turn seemed a little conservative when it came to sear engagement and I wondered if Remington had changed their trigger design since the "instructions" were published.

I have since put 100+ rounds thru the rifle and dry-fired several hundred more. I have yet to find any flaw with the trigger.

BUT--BUT--BUT--BUT:

I still will not point my rifle at anything/anyone that I would not be willing to kill/destroy. That is (correct me if I am wrong) is CARDINAL RULE #1.

<<I still will not point my rifle at anything/anyone that I would not be willing to kill/destroy. That is (correct me if I am wrong) is CARDINAL RULE #1.>>

Yes it is, That was Remingtons answer to this problem as well and they are counting on it.
Instead of a recall on the M/700 back in 1979 after they estimated that 1% of 2 million rifles could FSR (Fire On Safety Release)in internal documents Jan.2,1979 Product Safety Subcommittee meetings they decided to implement a message concerning "Safe Gun Handling" to the public.
In another Product Safety Subcommittee meeting Jan.23,1979 they implemented a message through SAAMI concerning "Safe Gun Handling" Does anyone remember "Half Safe Is Un-Safe" adds, would it surprize anyone to learn this is Part of the equasion concerning the "Trick" Condition that was/is present in the Walker Patented System?

1) Always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction.

2) Never trust your safety.... Why?

3) Never touch the trigger while the rifle is in the *On* safe position...

1) Is a very good and sound goal to try to achive, can it be done 100% of the time for every second....

2)If you touch the trigger while your rifle is in the *On* safe position you could "Trick* the fire control into Inadvertent Discharge (FSR) when you release the safety... (So Dont Ever Trust It)

3) Could potentially set up the "Trick* Condition if the trigger/connector fails to return to sear support position, then refer to rules #1 & #2 "Never Trust Your Safety"

By the way the potential for a safety induced discharge is stated in the Patent Application, Dated July 11,1950 for this device.

More food for thought anyway? I will quit the rant for tonight.

Augustis ><>

[This message has been edited by Augustis (edited 04-01-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Augustis (edited 04-01-2002).]

and I reply,
�Living off of�� ? I haven�t charged, or received, a dime for a word I�ve written on this or any other discussion board.

�I thought the Barber case was over.� ? I don�t know for sure there IS a Barber case. I was ask for help in understanding a mechanical device and I gave it. I�d do the same for you. Just ask.

�Still have an ax to grind��� This is offensive. I have no axe, but I do have the truth��.because I had the good sense to *look* for it.

I suggest that approach highly to anyone that has an interest in firearms. There are more lies, hyperbole, BS and misinformation about firearms than any other subject I can think of. Gunwriters have been ignorant (if not downright dishonest) for many years and have passed along press releases instead of personally found truths to the shooting public in popular publications. As a result we have some real problems in the shooting public.

The truth has now been told concerning the M700/Walker. It�s even been told by REMINGTON in their own words�.but some shooters still deny the problem�.

It reminds me of the people that really *want* to believe in crop circles. Even when they are *shown* who is making them and how, they still argue for the spacemen. I have trouble understanding that line of thinking. Evidence is evidence, and enough evidence builds to a conclusion.

The Walker trigger has a flaw.
You can see it. It can be explained. The parts can be made to duplicate it. The company admits it. Lawyers have successfully prosecuted it. Experts have proved it. Juries have understood it. People have died as a result of it.

What proof do *you* need?? ��and that�s not a rhetorical question. I want to know.

quote:

---

Originally posted by jdllyons:
BUT--BUT--BUT--BUT:

I still will not point my rifle at anything/anyone that I would not be willing to kill/destroy. That is (correct me if I am wrong) is CARDINAL RULE #1.[/B]

---

Actually, that's rule #2. Rule #1 is "All guns are always loaded."

Augustis & Belk are right- the trigger can be tricked inadvertently, or may work fine dozens of times, then fail suddenly. I've personally seen it happen on 3 out of 6 rifles owned by the Tacoma, WA PD. All were manufactured in 1989/90 and were un-modified in any way. We decided Sako's would be a much better choice.

------------------
dquilio

Jack Belk, you called someone an idiot on this forum, that does not qualify you as an "expert witness". Enough said, sure-shot

As you make adjustments to the Trigger Spring, it is not uncommon to begin feeling some creep that you could not feel before, irregardless of who made the "factory" trigger(Rem, Win, Wby, etc.). It is appropriate to be careful as you adjust the amount of "Sear Engagemnet" so as not to create an Un-Safe trigger condition. It is apparent you already understand that.

But, I do believe there are closer to 9-10 million Remington Rifles produced with a "similar" TOTALLY SAFE - EXCELLENTLY DESIGNED trigger.

However, that said, ANY TRIGGER MADE can become unsafe if:
1. It contains worn or broken pieces.
2. It is dirty.
3. It is not adjusted properly.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pecos45:
I don't understand the grief some of you are giving JBelk here. Unsafe triggers are for sure no joke. ...

---

Hey Pecos45, They have a good reason for giving belk a hard time - he is wrong(as usual). There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Remington Trigger design.

There are people that prefer the current Remington design for the way the "Bolt Operates" compared to the ones made prior to 1982. For the folks that have the older designs and want them modified, here is a link from the Remington site:

http://www.remington.com/Safety_Modification_Program/remington_safety.htm

It DOES NOT change the EXCELLENT Disconnector design that belk simply dosen't understand. For those of us that do understand it, his posts on it are funny, pathetic and totally irresponsible. But, it does at least let you get a grasp of his Mechanical Engineering understanding - non-existant.

And that is why some of the previous posters "gave belk grief". We would all agree with you that "Unsafe triggers are for sure no joke." Fortunately for ALL of us Remington owners, the Remington factory trigger is SAFE.

------------------
Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills, Hot Core

<<It DOES NOT change the EXCELLENT Disconnector design that belk simply dosen't understand. For those of us that do understand it, his posts on it are funny, pathetic and totally irresponsible.>>

I just have 2 questions at this time?

Why did Merle H. (Mike) Walker urge Remington to make changes to the design with the addition of a *Trigger Block* on 8-16 1948 regarding the M/721 safety and again in 1982 (7 Years after he retired from RAC)

Why "Must the gun be safe when unloaded"?

Regards, Augustis ><>

Another "2 poster" who feels the need to preach.

Did you know that pointing a loaded rifle, under any circumstances, at another person is dangerous? Regardless of safety type?

Myself, I'll take responsibilty for my own actions, and not pawn it off on somebody else. "It's Remington's fault" doesn't cut it. The fact remains, if the rifle had not been pointed at another person while moving the safety, this never would have happened.

I'd be happy if we had no lawyers to shift blame & make people feel better about their own stupidity, and everyone was forced to take responsibility for their own actions.

Like was said by somebody above, do you want to sell that dangerous rifle cheap? After all, it's a serious threat to anybody around you, and you don't want to have to deal with that pressure do you? I promise not to point it at anybody while messing with the safety.

Does a manufacturer of *any* product have an obligation to correct or warn the public concerning a problem that could potentially cause serious injury or death while being used as intended and the factors that lead up to the accident are forseeable to them in advance of the accident once they identify the problem/defect?

I said *any* manufacturer of any product.

Augustis ><>

1.) If a rifle is pointed at the target or in another appropriate direction and an FSR or AD occurrs, what's the big deal? Really?

2.) Rather than change the trigger design, what if Remington eliminated the "safety" mechanism altogether? How would this change things?

Just trying to think outside the box, and look at this issue in a different light. My personal answers are:

1. it's not a big deal.
2. it shouldn't change a thing.

But that's just me. Your answers may be different.

PS. Isn't the remington rifle the choice of our militarie's snipers? I can't remember...

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tharyl:
...(1)a Remington .243 Model 700 that had been in the family for years. (moved-)This rifle had been hunting with three generations of hunter's in our family. (2)We thought it was a fine firearm ... (3)Upon releasing the "safety" in order to unload the rifle it accidentally discharged. Both boys swear that the trigger wasn't touched. (4)No one was aware that the Remington trigger had a fatal inherent flaw. The problem was not known about until that day. Thank God that the first time was not a killer of my two sons like it has been for others. (5)It hasn't been said on this paticular thread but the mother DID NOT kill her son. Remington killed her son by refusing to be responsible for manufacturing a defective trigger in a firearm and continuing to manufacture it when they are well aware that it is defective and not letting this knowledge into the public. Had she or I known of this fatal inherent design flaw in the trigger neither of us would have let the rifle into the house let alone near our children. Hunting rifles are designed to kill and Remington has proved that. This trigger mechanism has no business being on a hunting rifle. ...

---

Hey Tharyl, It is quite apparent your mind is made up about the Remington Trigger as the "problem". And in today's world, I can understand how you have been unknowingly manipulated into looking for somewhere to place the blame. It is regreatble that the accidental discharge happened, but it certainly isn't due to the "design" of the Remington Trigger.

I'm not posting this to irritate you or make you mad. But, I'll try to lead you through the "Logic" of what might be the actual problem.

In (1) of your post, you mention having this rifle for many years. Due to that, I'd suspect the problem is possibly due to one of the three things I originally posted - perhaps over the years, trash has made it's way "inside" the trigger housing. That can easily happen as long as you all have had this firearm - if the rifle's trigger is not specifically cleaned.

Or it could be due to someone misadjusting the trigger in order to get the old "hair-trigger" bragging rights. This would be a real mental problem for me if I'd ever set one up "improperly" and allowed someone else to use it. Not saying you would be attempting to refocus the Blame to anything other than yourself though, cause this may not be the situation at all. I do know plenty of folks who would welcome the opportunity to do such a low-life thing though.

Or it could be as simple as the internal parts have "worn" slightly over all those years of providing excellent service to your family. Some folks cry and whine if their PEP Boys Tires don't last as long as Michelin, but things do wear.

Or to enter your religious theme - there has only been "one" Perfect thing ever created, and it was not man-made. So even though the fine folks at Remington provided, (and still continue to provide) an excellent product, nothing they(or anyone else) make(s) is Perfect.

(2) You were correct.

(3) Perhaps it did go off by accident, or perhaps the children were so upset that they didn't want to disappoint you by telling you they messed up. Doesn't matter, cause I do believe the firearm went off when they did not intend for it to.

However, this could be the cornerstone for getting the thought process started down an "illogical" path and placing blame where it doesn't really belong.

(4) That is because there IS NOT a design problem.

(5) An emotional response that is understandable, but totally wrong. This is similar to the "thoughts?" belk and his lackey auggy use concerning Remington Triggers.

You have simply been drawn down the wrong path from the "facts" you became aware of at the time of the accidental discharge. Then coupled with the media hype of the Barber's plite and fools spreading "FALSE INFORMATION", you have simply come to an erronious conclusion.

Here are a few stories I've either been a first hand witness to or was the first person contacted after the "accidental discharges":

A guy I've grown up shooting with cleans his Browning 25ACP. He had about 35 years firearms experience at the time. He dry-fires it a few times to make sure it all went back together properly, slips the magazine back in it, chambers a round and slips it in his pocket. His wife calls telling him to get a move on cause they are going out for supper. He goes to answer the call of nature and upon sitting, hears the pistol hit the floor in his pants pocket. He reaches down, looks it over, brain goes blank and tries to "dry-fire" it into the ceiling only to hear an "accidental discharge".

Is Browning at fault?

Here is a similar story. A good buddy of mine was a 25 year firearm's veteran at the time and the County Coroner. He cleans his Ruger 357Mag after spending the day qualifying with the Police Chief. Dry-fires it a few times to make sure it all went back together properly, slips the cartridges back in it and puts it in his holster. An Officer walks in and asks to see how well his trigger is tuned. The Corner pulls the Ruger, brain goes blank, attempts to Dry-fire it into the ceiling and has an "accidental discharge".

Is Ruger at fault?

One of the old Plantations where I hunt has a Predation Permit where you are allowed to kill all the Whitetail Deer you see, around the clock, every day of the year. The Plantation owner has lots and lots of actual hands-on Trigger Time over 55 years or so. He kills two Deer, reloads his 270Win M70 by habit and sticks the rifle in the cab of the truck. Somehow the rifle fires and kills the Chevy starter.

Is Winchester at fault? Or using belk's line of reason, perhaps Chevy is at fault for the "poor placement" of the starter?

A young fellow I've been teaching to reload reads the totally illogical stories about the Remington Triggers and asks about it. I responded much as Gary Rihn has done that "ALL" firearms can become un-safe if mishandled. The young fellow goes off and buys a 30-06 Mauser and checks the SAFETY and Trigger prior to ever loading it. He notices that the rifle will "accidentally discharge", or go "CLICK", when the Safety is slipped off. A simple Trigger Adjustment corrected this problem.

Was it a "FAULTY KILLER TRIGGER DESIGN" put out by Mauser?

A young fellow of only 8-9 years old had been taught properly by his Father about how to handle firearms. The young boy had a VERY OLD, VERY FILTHY 22S,L,LR Take-Down Savage Pump rifle and managed to get a cartridge hung. Not wanting to make himself look bad in his Father's eyes, the boy goes out on the back porch, points the muzzle in what he thinks is a SAFE direction and attempts to clear the Jam. During this process an "accidental discharge" occurs(maybe with his Trigger Finger where it should not have been or maybe not), the bullet strikes the wooden floor, ricochetts into a 4x4 post and bounces once more to God only knows where. The young boy was VERY LUCKY that it didn't bounch back into him.

Was Savage at fault?

I just got a brand new Wby U-Lt with it's excellent trigger design. Is there "any chance at all" that this rifle might have an "Accidental Discharge"? Maybe! It for darn sure will be treated as if it "MIGHT"!

And Tharyl, I'm REAL GLAD to hear neither you nor either of your son's got hurt. I'd encourage you all to treat "Every Firearm" as if it could have an "Accidental Discharge". Cause it might just do it.

------------------
Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills, Hot Core

BTW, Walker did not invent the trigger connector, a gentleman by the name of Sweeney did.

"I just have 2 questions at this time?

Why did Merle H. (Mike) Walker urge Remington to make changes to the design with the addition of a *Trigger Block* on 8-16 1948 regarding the M/721 safety and again in 1982 (7 Years after he retired from RAC)

Why "Must the gun be safe when unloaded"?"

Maybe this is something you might understand?

Merle H. (Mike) Walker Memo quoted word for word:

December 3,1946

To: PB Rutherford

From: MH Walker

Subject: Theorereticle *Unsafe* Condition Of M/721 Safety

Straight calculation of the amount the Safety lifts the Sear off the Trigger gives a max. lift of .0147" and a min. lift of minus .0024". However fourteen (14) different dimensions are used in the calculation. The actual amount of lift by statistical analysis would be a max. of .009" and a min. of .0032".

Objections have been raised to the above theoretical *Unsafe* condition. According to L.T.Murphy, the necassary dimension changed on the Sear to eliminate this condition can be made without changes to tooling or gaging. With a minimum lap of .026" between Sear and Firing Pin head the change can be made by changing the depth of grind on the Sear notch.

This change will be incorporated in the drawing as soon as tool procurement is completed.

M.H. Walker
Design Section
Arms Technical Division

FYI,I have Mike Walkers experiment note book on the development of the M/721 as well, what do you have?

Regards, Augustis ><>

[This message has been edited by Augustis (edited 04-20-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Augustis (edited 04-20-2002).]

It just hit on me that you are sooo fond of me you took the time to give me a nick name? (Pretty Cool) Lackey Auggy is that Asian?

I have been called Auggy but once at another site I post at, did you get it from there,or could you be that original?....

Regards, Augustis ><>

Thank you for your concern and taking the time to respond. I enjoy gathering facts on this subject and I am sorry it has taken me this long to get back to you. In order to keep clarity I will respond with the same numbers you inserted in my post.

1) The trigger was inspected and I was told that this trigger was extremely clean. And the trigger adjustment had not been set to a "hair trigger" I agree that would be definitely stupid.

2)We WERE WRONG. Fine firearms do not AD.

3)As far as my children making a mistake, I know that they did not in this circumstance because my 20 year old son was trained in Colorado Springs at the USOTC by Gold medal shooters. By the age of 14 he had won 2 golds, 2 silver, and 1 bronze. If he said that the trigger wasn't touched--it wasn't touched. Safety is the first thing they teach you and no mistakes by RIFLE or human is tolerated at the USOTC.

4) The designer of this trigger (Merle H. Walker) admits to the design problem of the trigger by the safety actually becoming a second trigger itself. (Deposition of Merle H. Walker February 2, 1987) Remington even admits that 1% of the pre-1975 Model 700 family of guns out in the field which number about 2,000,000 can be tricked into firing. That means Remington admits that there are 20,000 defective rifles yet when they are confronted with one they say it isn't one of the 20,000. Where are these rifles then?? My FACTS are taken from a product safety subcomittee meeting January 2, 1979. The same trigger used in the pre-1975 rifles is still being placed on M700s today so the number of 20,000 is even higher today. I recently contacted Remington regarding their so-called recall. I spoke to Mr. John Loschin and he told me that my rifle was dangerous and I should have it fixed, but he says it is not defective. HUH??? Even you admit there is a flaw "I'd encourage you all to treat 'Every Firearm' as if it could have an 'Accidental Discharge'. Cause it might just do it." I have researched this case enough to have learned that not EVERY firearm has the mechanical capability of AD.

5)You call my response to all of this "emotional" Damn straight! My two sons and two nephews who were also there could have been seriously injured or even killed. Then I look into the situation and gather FACTS and learn that the whole thing never had to take place. Remington manufactured a defective trigger that could have killed any of the 4 boys I love. Yes that causes emotional response and my emotional response can be backed by cold hard FACTS. I guess the most emotion was caused by Remington's lack of "emotional response" to these AD. Your refusal to see the facts does not make them any less true. You say "fools" that are posting on this thread are spreading false information on the M700s, but you haven't and can't give any contradicting "facts". You say they are wrong but you give me no factual information to prove it, only stories that I agree are total "brain goes blank" cases. All your stories had one thing in common---the people in your stories loaded the guns and then proceeded to pull the trigger. Of course the guns discharged -the trigger was pulled. In the M700 cases of AD they also have one thing in common---the individuals were all aware that the rifle was loaded because they were attempting to unload it. When the safety was pushed--NOT the trigger--- the rifle discharged. A true AD is different than the "brain goes blank" stories that you told me. No one pulls the trigger in an AD with a M700. Please share the "facts", not stories, you have that prove that the M700 trigger does not have an inherent fatal flaw.
Tharyl

I thought they were simple enough, would you like me to post more *clues* (So again, you have one)

Would this help in your lengthy deliberation of facts that you refuse to see (or admit for what ever reason), What part of any of my posts do you think I *Can Not* substanciate or you consider to be false, maybe we should start there? Lets try that.....

Thyral
It looks like you have been doing some home work on this issue, un-like some that shall go nameless. I am impressed!

Augustis ><>

To Be Safe, First Think You Might Not Be.

[This message has been edited by Augustis (edited 04-25-2002).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by jdllyons:
I've got a new Remington 700 Classic. Have read several posts on adjusting the trigger from the horrible 7-8 pounds. Finally got around to working on it last nite.

Followed the instructions, back off on weight adjustment screw, the over-travel screw and the sear engagement screw. Slowly turned the engagement screw in until the dropped the "hammer". Then backed the engagement screw out the recommended 1/3-1/2 turn.

The problem is that even the "1/3 turn" setting, there is an awful lot of takeup. I repeated this step several times and found that a safe setting was at a little less than a 1/4 turn. Completed the adjustment on the overtravel screw and got the weight to about 3# (have to check with trigger pull gauge tonite). Slammed the bolt a couple dozen times and did the "engage safety -- pull trigger -- disengage safety" test about 20 times with no problems.

My question is this:

In your opinion, is the 1/3 - 1/2 turn a little conservative on the safe side or did Big Green make a change to their triggers?

I guess with mass produced components, every trigger is different.

BTW: I did coat all 3 screw heads with 4 coatings of nail polish.

---

Follow these instructions:
http://www.snipersparadise.com/articles/adjusting_the_rem_700_trigger.htm

When you get it where you want lay your telephone book on the floor and smartly bounce the butt of your assembled rifle off it several times.

Wally

That was a VERY well researched and written reply.

I�m sure the civil tone and the dead-center reasoning will at last convince all involved that problems exist and solutions are long in coming.

Thank you for a great post.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tharyl:
Hot Core

Thank you for your concern and taking the time to respond.

Please share the "facts", ...

---

Hey Tharyl, I did.

Best of luck to you and your sons.

------------------
Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills, Hot Core

The political difficulty of your argument is that it supports the antis "guns kill".

Let us say that the Remington trigger is "fixed". Would you then be prepared to have a loaded Rem 700 with the "fixed" trigger pointed at you with the safety on and then have the safety let off.

I assume your answer would be NO.

So what we can say is that you can make the Rem trigger/safety "safer"

When this was thrashed out on HA before, those on the pro Barber side of the debate, like Jack and Brad, advocated that safe gun handling could not be guaranteed because of ricochets and whatever etc. and so on.

To put forward that view creates problems.

Now on the other hand, if the Remington has these ADs, then a case would be "non political" for Remington reimbursing the shooter for wasted ammo or perhaps the loss of opportunity on a particular game animal. maybe the buck of a lifetime or similar.

But to say some would be killed or injured because of it brings us straight back to "guns kill"

Now I know that Jack argues if Remington fixed the problem then things will be OK.

However, no fix will be 100%, especially when allowing for alterations to be made to the rifle.

And again, if Jack fixes the trigger will he stand in front of the loaded rifle while someone lets of the safety. When the answer is No we have an immediate anti gun problem.

Lastly and something I would ask you to consider. By the way I don't know if you saw the exercise on HA, so I maybe going over a bit of old ground for you.

When this was introduced on HA, Sawmp had pictures of the Barber boy and everything went along with Remington being the bad boy etc. etc. Initially the forum followed the views put forward by Swamp, Jack, Brad, Chic Worthing, Parrothead (who was moderator of the HA Political Forum) and others.

Then some people like Chainsaw, Steve Moody, myself and others came in with the opposite view and that view basically revolved around what I have outlined in the earlier part of this post.

Now for my point. Those that came in with opposite view to what HA was putting forward will all be found as very regular contributors to the political forums. I know the people personally and often talk to them on the phone. All have a lot of involvement in the gun ownership issue that goes above and beyond writing a letter to the gov't.

Now I ask you, what brought all of these people into the debate?

I can tell you if HA was advocating that Remington should reimburse the Barbers for a wasted round of ammo or lost opportunity for the buck of a lifetime, things would have been different.

After sometime passed both Swamp and Parrothead did post they had gone down the wrong road with their previous views.

I guess all I am asking is that if you bag the Remington trigger, try and avoid the "guns kill" aspect.

Mike

Mike, what are you talking about? I've never seen someone go around in circles as readily as you. Mike Wlaker said his own trigger design should be replaced with a "Model 70 type" trigger... guess you know more than he does, eh?

Read my post more carefully. I have not discussed the issue of whether the Remington trigger is bad, good or indifferent.

Check the post.

Mike

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brad:
Mike Wlaker said his own trigger design should be replaced with a "Model 70 type" trigger

---

Then let me rephrase Mike's question.

Would you stand in front of a loaded M70 and allow the safety to be taken off?

Would you point it at your child and take the safety off?

Would you do it with ANY rifle?

quote:

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Originally posted by Brad:
(1)Augustis, HotCore will never answer you... (2)he has no facts... (3)my take on him is that he has some sort of financial tie with Remington.

....(4)Mike Walker said his own trigger design should be replaced with a "Model 70 type" trigger... (5)guess you know more than he does, eh?

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Hey Brad, (1)You are correct. No need to waste my time with him at all.

(2) Your inability to understand the Mechanical Engineering of the excellent(and SAFE) Remington Trigger design has led you to an improper conclusion.

(3) Your inability to believe my previous posts concerning this indicate a severe character flaw within you.

(4) I see this quoted quite a bit by people who have taken a memo "out of context". By not being a part of the discussion leading up to that note, nor the discussions following it, it can lead you (and the others) to a false impression of what was intended.

(5) Your "childish" remark is completely in line with your character. Mike won't fall for that level of foolishness.

Good luck with your 300WSM.

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Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills, Hot Core