"Would you stand in front of a loaded M70 and allow the safety to be taken off?"

Of course not, No One Would Intentionally, but then again the Win.M/70 is fitted with a 3 position safety (Striker Block), in the intermeidate position allows the handler of the rifle to clear the chamber with the rifle in a "Safe" condition when used as intended by the manufacturer.

Compare the Pre 82 Rem to the the M/70 safety, the question should then be which one would *You* rather stand in front of (Unintentially) if used as Intended? Just a thought?

Mike375
I agree, you did not touch the issue, yet?

Regards, Augustis ><>

To Be Safe, First Think You Might not BE.

1. What is the purpose of a safety on a rifle?

2. Does the safety on a Remington 700 work?

3. If not, shouldn't I remove the safety from my Walker-era 40X-B?

[This message has been edited by Recono (edited 04-26-2002).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Augustis:
Gary Stated:

"Would you stand in front of a loaded M70 and allow the safety to be taken off?"

Of course not, No One Would Intentionally, but then again the Win.M/70 is fitted with a 3 position safety (Striker Block), in the intermeidate position allows the handler of the rifle to clear the chamber with the rifle in a "Safe" condition when used as intended by the manufacturer.

---

Ah, the old switcheroo...

You say no, but in your very next breath, go on to tell me how safe the M70 is. Why then would you not trust it enough to have it pointed at you? Is there a chance that maybe it's not 100% fool-proof either?

I'm done with this. It's an exercise in futility. I'll continue to use my M700's, you go on with what you are confortable with.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gary Rihn:
Ah, the old switcheroo...

You say no, but in your very next breath, go on to tell me how safe the M70 is. Why then would you not trust it enough to have it pointed at you? Is there a chance that maybe it's not 100% fool-proof either?

I'm done with this. It's an exercise in futility. I'll continue to use my M700's, you go on with what you are confortable with.

---

Remington tried to ignore this problem for decades. Now the are spending big$$$ informing you and I of the problem. Why??

Liability now shifts to the owner of defective firearms.

Wally

<<Ah, the old switcheroo...>>

No sir, some people see the glass *only* half full (You) and others (Me)choose to see it as being half full.
Just a difference of perspectives/solutions to the same problem.

<<You say no, but in your very next breath, go on to tell me how safe the M70 is. Why then would you not trust it enough to have it pointed at you? Is there a chance that maybe it's not 100% fool-proof either?>>

Common Sense would tell you this,
I did not say the M/70 was safer than anything else, I only described the function of the middle position of the M/70 safety as opposed the the Pre 82 Rem as I understand it.

Apperently you missed the point of my post,

You said:

<<"Would you stand in front of a loaded M70 and *allow* the safety to be taken off?">>

I said:

"Of course not, No One Would Intentionally"

The difference is the M/70 does not have to be, or *Force* you to place the safety in the *Fire* Position to opperate the action while loading/unloading if you use the tool as it was designed and intended by the manufacturer.

Answer the question for yourself Gary, if you were hazed by someone unloading their loaded rifle (Unintentionally) RULE #1, would *You* rather the safety be in the *ON* or *OFF* safe position, the safety would add one more element of safety that possibly would be lacking with the "Human Factor" alone?

So why bother putting the burden of Oppinion on anyone else to answer this silly question when you should/can answer it for yourself first, to make what point exactly?

Hot Core

Now, maybe we are getting somewhere you said to Brad:

<<"(4) I see this quoted quite a bit by people who have taken a memo "out of context". By not being a part of the discussion leading up to that note, nor the discussions following it, it can lead you (and the others) to a false impression of what was intended.">>

Were you there before and after this memo was drafted?

If anyone misinterpitated Mike Walkers meaning in this memo could you please clarify it for us? (Even if you were not there either)

In a letter to Clark Workman head of R&D from Merle (Mike) Walker Mar. 12, 1982 (7 years after he retired from RAC)

"Jim was here today and we went over bolt actions from A to Z. These are some of the things I propose:"

1)
"Please don't bring out a new Bolt Action Rifle without a fool proof safety which is capable of locking the bolt. Make it at leased as good as the present M/70 better if possible."

11)
"Has anyone tried a floating wedge in front of the present Model 700 trigger as an added element to the safety".... (where by he describes possibly how to mount the floating wedge) would this be a "Trigger Block" like he (Mike Walker) recommended to RAC in 1948?

Regards, Augustis ><>

To Be Safe, First Think You Might not Be.

[This message has been edited by Augustis (edited 04-27-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Augustis (edited 04-27-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Augustis (edited 04-27-2002).]

You say "Hey Tharyl, I did" regarding sharing FACTS with me. I still cannot find any FACTS in your original post to me. There are several stories but no FACTS. I would really like for you to share any FACTS that you have concerning the Walker trigger. You also posted to Brad that his inability to understand the Mechanical Engineering of the trigger had led him to the wrong conclusion, yet you do not explain the mechanical engineering that you claim is excellent and SAFE. I would like for you to share your understanding of the trigger with me. You also told me in your original post that the AD my boys' experienced wasn't due to the "design" of the Remington trigger. I would like for you to please prove that as you claim you can. If you can share any FACTS with me that will disprove all that I have learned in the months of researching this I am willing to listen.

To anyone giving the challange to stand in front of ANY rifle that is stupid. This thread was supposed to be about a trigger question in the M700, not about standing in front of guns. I assumed that everyone had learned first thing not to stand in front of a gun. Please leave childish comments such as that and stick to the question. I came to this thread to collect information regarding the M700 trigger and I would hate for this thread to turn into a senseless discussion.

If you discus the Reminton trigger/safety issue and in the context that your boys could have been killed, you can always expect others such as myself to come into the discussion. I don't have one of your previous posts in front of me but I think you did say something along the lines that Remington killed the Barber boy or someone else.

In terms of the political aspect, standing in front of the Model 70 or any other gun is not a stupid thing to say and I will expalin why.

Again, the argument from the other side is that safe gun handling can't be guaranteed by the shooter.

If that premise is put forward and accepted, then we have a problem if there is no gun that you would stand in front off while the safety is let off.

Think about what you are saying with that view.

You are in reality saying that you can't guarantee safe gun handling and you can't guarantee against an AD.

You see, if the view is that you can guarantee safe gun handling, then the AD becomes no more of an issue than either a wasted round or a lost hunting opportunity.

Mike

[This message has been edited by Mike375 (edited 04-27-2002).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tharyl:
I came to this thread to collect information regarding the M700 trigger and I would hate for this thread to turn into a senseless discussion.

---

No Tharyl, you came to this whole board with one purpose... to preach against the M700 safety/trigger. Five posts total, and EVERY one of them is to preach your side. You are not here to "learn" anything, your mind is made up.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tharyl:
(1)Hot Core, I still cannot find any FACTS in your original post to me. ....(2)You also posted to Brad that his inability to understand the Mechanical Engineering of the trigger had led him to the wrong conclusion, yet you do not explain the mechanical engineering that you claim is excellent and SAFE. I would like for you to share your understanding of the trigger with me. ...(3)I came to this thread to collect information regarding the M700 trigger and I would hate for this thread to turn into a senseless discussion.

---

Hey Tharyl, When you posted that you had a "Gunsmith" clean and look at the trigger, that opened a lot of possibilities. Was it before or after the AD? Did he take it apart or just spray it down as best he could from the outside? Was it still on or off the receiver? Did he re-adjust "anything", especially the Sear Engagement(without your knowledge), to "slick it up" so you would feel that you got your moneys worth? Did the Gunsmith mention anything about "worn engagement surfaces"? Did he even bother to look for them? Did he have a "vested interest" in finding no readily "correctable" fault? Why didn't you take it apart yourself? Would you know worn engagement surfaces if you were looking at them? How much actual engagement of the Sear Surfaces do "you"(and your "Gunsmith") believe is a SAFE amount? How much Trigger Weight do "you"(and your "Gunsmith") believe is a SAFE amount?

Now, before you start trying to answer those questions, don't waste your time posting a response. Those questions are posted simply for you to think about. I'll be traveling for the next few days and will not be responding any further to this thread.

(1) If you look back at my original post to jdllyons, you will see all the "FACTS" pertinate to your question:
"...ANY TRIGGER MADE can become unsafe if:
1. It contains worn or broken pieces.
2. It is dirty.
3. It is not adjusted properly."

That's it! Nothing else is relevant. There is no "inherent SAFETY issue" due to the Mechanical Design of the Remington trigger.

I can understand how you have been led to believe there is some kind of a "problem" due to posts by people who really have no mechanical comprehension. The only way for you to grasp that they are TOTALLY WRONG(if you choose not to believe me) is to read a lot of their posts on anything mechanical and it will become self-evident. Then you will realize what a "PT Barnum style Con-Game" they are running.

(2)I'd have to give you a couple of Classes in Mechanical Design Engineering to properly explain "how and why" the Remington Trigger Design is excellent and totally SAFE, which is beyond the scope of this Board.

(3) It is too late. Once belk and his lackey entered the thread it ADed the "senseless discussion" SAFETY feature. I didn't include Brad in that pile(this time) simply because he is emotionally tied to this fiasco through his connection with the Barbers. His childish replies are a result of frustration in his efforts to place "blame" on an inaminate object.

If you(or anyone else) don't like the Remington Triggers, your best bet is to sell any Remingtons you have to someone who can appreciate them. To let this issue fester within you only prolongs your emotional discord.

Or, have them "properly" inspected, worn parts replaced, cleaned and adjusted, then enjoy them for many more years as the excellent, TOTALLY SAFE firearms your family has relied on for years. Or, replace them with an aftermarket trigger of your choice and enjoy them - they won't be SAFER, but if it makes you feel better about using them, so be it.

Best of luck to you which ever way you choose to go.

------------------
Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills, Hot Core

[This message has been edited by Hot Core (edited 04-27-2002).]

Hot Core says he does not want to discuss it anymore (As he does not have anything to bring to the table of this issue other than his opinion, which I would really be interested in what he has to say but chooses to be silent on what he considers to be factual/relevent)

Gary R. Is talking about "Sides" (Which there are *non* as everyone looses when it comes to safety issues or lack there of)

Mike....(Which I will admit has been very civil to this point, but... this is how he sucks people into the nasty type of political debate that he lives for...

To surpress freedom of speech.

His Idea of Political Debate will have nothing to do with *Facts* or will contribute to the the issues of function/safety of the Walker F/C, M/70 ETC. or anything relevent for that matter, other than to possibly reduce his frustration because of the political climate of gun control in his country and/or excersize his abilities as a Policy Writer for Insurance Companies to ensure they dont have to pay on a claim when we need it most.)

Historical Facts and Documented Events Over Rule Opinion?

Regards, Augustis ><>

Any child can understand that an "engineered item" must work "on paper" as well as in the real world. Your idea that the "excellent & safe Remington trigger design" (your words) is such, flies in the face of fifty years of reality (empirical evidence). Walker's memo was not out of context... I've read it. Have you?

"Your inability to believe my previous posts concerning this indicate a severe character flaw within you (your words)."

You're calling me childish and commenting on my character... my Lord, that's the most childish, absurd, egotistical and laughable remark (tantrum) I've ever witnessed on these BB's. Did your parents spank you when you were a lad? It would have helped you understand you're not "God."

"Good luck with your 300WSM (your words)"

Wow, again, I'm "childish and have a severe character flaw!"

HotCore, why don't you come out of the shadows like a man. My name has been on these boards for years. Who I am is no secret. I've also made no secret of the fact that I've owned a lot of Remington 700's and consider them an entirely adequate hunting rifle if the trigger is replaced... well, and the pot-metal parts too. Ok, the bolt handle needs attention as well. I won't comment on the extractor!

Like you, I once had a safe full of 700's. Unlike you, I didn't kid myself that they're anything other than a cheaply-made but well-marketed firearm.

I've been publically forthright about a minor feeding problem with my Model 70 300WSM. My ego (unlike yours) doesn't prevent me from looking objectively and publically at things I have a financial and ego stake in. I got the "problem" ironed out... thank you for your concern.

Again:

1. What is a rifle safety supposed to do?

2. Does a Remington 700 safety do it, as long as the trigger hasn't been fucked with?

3. Should I shitcan the safety on my 40-XB?

If someone could answer 1 & 2 above, I might even be able to figure out 3 on my own. However, since I don't know it all yet (this is scheduled to be accomplished with an upgrade in early 2004), I am open to suggestions (other than shipping my 40-XB to a home for orphan firearms).

TIA

1. What is a rifle safety supposed to do?

The safety on the Remington, when engaged, is supposed to prevent the rifle from firing when the trigger is pulled.

2. Does a Remington 700 safety do it, as long as the trigger hasn't been fucked with?

It appears that it may at times only delay the discharge of the firearm until the safety is disengaged. Upon disengagement, the rifle may discharge without the trigger being pulled. Not because of the safety, but because of the trigger design.

3. Should I shitcan the safety on my 40-XB?

The big criticism of the older Remington safety is that you can't unload the rifle in the "safe" position. Since your rifle is a single shot, that wouldn't be much of a conern to me if it was only used for shooting off of a bench, and wasn't loaded unless resting on the bench.

I would look at replacing the trigger, however.

Thanks! I think I got it, now. If I keep the trigger from getting pulled, it doesn't matter whether I have a safety or not. If I can't manage that, the safety will either prevent the rifle from discharging, or delay it, at its option.

Doesn't sound very useful to me, but I guess if I know it's a POS, it's not hurting anything.

I usually don't load the rifle without firing it, and, once it is loaded, usually don't move it without firing it.

I am happy with the trigger. I'm not sure I would want to spend a bunch of money to get a different trigger and another safety that might not be any better.

Thanks again for answering the question. I wonder if anyone else on the thread can learn anything from those answers.