We could probably agree that there are at least two ways to do just about anything… the easy way and the hard way. The process of having my 338-06 built started out OK, became difficult, then mind-bendingly frustrating, and finally it got easier… more expensive, but easier nonetheless. Starting in Feb 2003, I've had a 338-06 project in the works. It was to be built by a gunsmith named John Ricks, heretofore to be known as the alleged gunsmith, who evidently went through a mid-life crisis during the process of building my rifle along with a few others who frequent this board.

The stock was an AcraBond AA Bastogne laminate that I ordered from Mel Smart... who subsequently passed away. It was many months before Serengeti Rifle Company finally delivered the stock, after acquiring the AcraBond assets and programming new patterns into CNC machines, etc.

In the summer of 2005 I received a simple communication telling me my rifle was “doneâ€â€¦ which in fact meant “as done as it’s gonna get.†This action alone would not have happened had it not been for Rusty, an esteemed poster on this forum, who prompted a visit from the local Sheriff to secure his property (again, many thanks Rusty!!) My rifle was far less than “doneâ€; the stock was roughed in, the action and barrel blued and installed in the stock. The inletting looked as though it had been performed with a dull bit chucked off-center in a router to hog out wood from the rear action inletting.

The action I provided, was a 1944 Pre-64 Mod 70, the barrel was a Pac-Nor CM Super Match #3 profile and Williams one piece bottom metal. The action being pre-war configuration was a short cloverleaf tang. Serengeti inlet the stock for a long tang pre-64 action... this mistake I cannot blame on the alleged gunsmith and was likely my oversight. However, the alleged gunsmith analyzed the situation and without calling me to discuss, decided to take his mill and cut a deep scallop out of the thickness of the rear action tang in order to make it look better. Nice try… now it looks REALLY f----d up.

After getting my rifle back, I took it to to Jim Cloward in Machias, WA (a great gunsmith, all around nice guy, and a former Wimbledon winner and I don't mean tennis). We decided to pull the barrel off the action. I bought another early 50's long tang Pre-64 action from Jim, had him tune up the action, re-index the barrel and verify the headspace, hog out the bedding from the old action and bed the new barreled action. I ended up shaping, sanding and doing the final finishing on the stock myself and Jim finished the metalwork, polishing and bluing. This week it goes to Bill Soverns in Sturgis, SD for checkering.

I’d like to thank Chic Worthing for his patient advice and recommendations. It is greatly appreciated. Coincidentally, I received the finished gun from Jim Cloward on the very same day that Rusty posted his email that Tip Burns had completed his two guns… the very same rifle components he had to have the Sheriff wrestle away from the alleged gunsmith.

The action that was butchered by the alleged gunsmith is now at Mark Stratton’s. Mark will repair the rear tang to its original dimensions only it will have the blind rear guard screw that he is so well known for.

I've attached a few pictures of the gun (pre-checkering) and of two targets from its first session at the range using A-Square's factory ammo w/ 200 grain ballistic tip bullets (rated at 2750 fps). The shots on the black bull were at 100 yards. The 3 shots in the 10 ring were sighters as I walked the reticle to the point of impact. The next 6 shots clustered in the x-ring were ~.75 inch. The picture with the green circle is from my brother’s 200 yard target where I squeezed off 3 shots... still under an inch. WOOOOOO HOO!!

I do not recommend this as a method to build a rifle nor fund a mid-life crisis. It took allot of patience to keep from saying screw-it more than a few times. However, I hung in there, spent more money than I'd care to remember and ended up with what may be arguably the most accurate rifle in my battery.

[url="http://www.hunt101.com/?p=425759&c=500&z=1"] [/url]
[url="http://www.hunt101.com/?p=425760&c=500&z=1"] [/url]
[url="http://www.hunt101.com/?p=425761&c=500&z=1"] [/url]
[url="http://www.hunt101.com/?p=425762&c=500&z=1"] [/url]
[url="http://www.hunt101.com/?p=425763&c=500&z=1"] [/url]

Very nice and if I read this right you will end up with two rifles for the price of three once your original action is done!

A very nice looking rifle and it shoots as well as it looks -- congratulations.

Edited: Strange coincidence too as I just took a Cloward rifle to Tip Burns on Sunday to fit some bases for me.

There is a dilema. On the one hand the professoinal wants to be assured that he or she will be paid for the work they do and the best way to do that is to get paid up front.

On the other hand, the person who wants the work done wants to make sure that he or she gets what they pay for, and the best way to do that is not pay until you get the work.

Bottom line: Never pay for more than half the job until its time for the work to be delivered.
Never. If the person doing the work doesn't like it, go elsewhere.

The reason being is that such an arragement leave incentive on both sides of the table. The person doing the work wants to get the rest of their money and the person who is having the work done wants to get their work finished.

In this case, the alleged gunsmith was fully paid for the work done a full 9 months in advance of my receipt of the rifle.

I'm a relatively easy going guy and appreciative of the efforts that someone is willing to exert on my behalf and I'm willing to pay for it. In this case many of us were misled and taken advantage of to say the least.

Charles,

That's about right... 2 rifles for the price of 3. Although the repaired action from Mark will probably sit in the white awaiting the creative and monetary juices for future endeavors.

quote:

In this case, the alleged gunsmith was fully paid for the work done a full 9 months in advance of my receipt of the rifle.

I bet things might have been different if you would have been paying 50 % on the day you received the rifle back.

22WRF,

You're good at stating the obvious. He sent me an email notifying me that the gun was done. I sent the balance payment as I was traveling and agreed that I'd pick up the gun when I returned. He then dropped off the face of the earth for >9 months. If we (Rusty, myself, and others) were dealing with a professional then the results would likely have been different. As it turned out he was a liar with no regard for anyone other than himself.

As it turned out, I lost some money and some time. It could've been worse and may have been worse for others I don't know about.

Brianbo

No, I am not stating the obvious. On an investment such as that, I would be picking the gun up at the maker's doorstep and the 50 percent balance wouldn't be paid if there had been a breach of contract.

I had that luxury simply because I lived in the same state.

Rusty just posted his 404 Jeffery report in the Big Bore forum. He is so fortunate to have had Tip Burns complete his projects rather than John Ricks. Dealing with it at the time was a PITA. He may have lost money, I know he lost time. But he's yielded a better result.

So in your perfect world Rusty's supposed to drive to Port Angeles, WA from Texas to pick up his rifles. Go stack your BBs someplace else.

I rarely make the same mistake twice, but I just did reading another one of your posts.

Brian,

Thanks for posting your story - I know it must be painful to dig it all up again.

The rifle sure turned out quite nicely. Congratulations on getting a fine shooter as well.

Great lessons learned for all of here at AR.

Phil

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Brianbo

No, I am not stating the obvious. On an investment such as that, I would be picking the gun up at the maker's doorstep and the 50 percent balance wouldn't be paid if there had been a breach of contract.

Depends a lot on who you are dealing with! Details should be arranged ahead of time.

quote:

Go stack your BBs someplace else.

I rarely make the same mistake twice, but I just did reading another one of your posts.

This kind of language shows your character and may have been a factor in why you had so much trouble.

You got a beautiful rifle, checkering is going to make that sucker a stand out. In the process you got another pre-64 winny so make that two rifles. I am happy for you and jealous of that rifle. What are you making the other one into?? I hope it turns out half as good. Might be better this one is in good hands.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

This kind of language shows your character and may have been a factor in why you had so much trouble.

If you do a search on the original gunsmith's name you will see he was highly recommended but then several people were trying to get in touch with him about their projects. It was reported he was building houses not guns. I believe that this affected more than the two people mentioned here, and I doubt it was an issue with their personalities.

Again, this is just what I read here, as I have never used him.

Brian,

That is truly a beautiful rifle and truly an interesting story; thank you for sharing both. I'd say this rifle is well deserved and your results, though long in arriving, appear to be worth the wait.

Furthermore, you've known all along that you wanted Bill do the checkering and Mark to work his magic on your other receiver - what a better excuse did you need for either?

May she shoot as well as she looks. Congrats!

22WRF,

I am an old Monty Python fan. As a response to your feeble asault on my character I shall simply paraphrase a scene from one of their movies; "...you, you wiper of other peoples bottoms! I fart in your general direction!"

If you bothered to do the research that Mr. Helms suggests you'll also see that I gave John more than the benefit of the doubt and was willing to accept his explanations up until I had proof of my own that I was being lied to.

Details were made in advance and I honored every single one when asked. Only by threat of legal action did he finally release my property that I owned and had fully paid for.

In the future, it also might be best not to offer advice when none was asked for.

quote:

In the future, it also might be best not to offer advice when none was asked for.

Last I checked this was an open forum and your name wasn't on the owner's mast.

Moreover I wasn't assaulting your character. Rather, I was pointing out that you assaulted mine.

John Ricks was paid up front for his work on my projects. After two years, most which I could not get in touch with him, there had been no work done on my projects, dispite his insistance that one of the barrels was already on the action. When I went to see Tip Burns after my parts were shipped to him, we found all the parts in original wrappings and boxes. No tooling marks. NIB!

I was lucky. I called the police in Port Angeles and while an officer stood in Ricks's front yard he called me and told me that I could call John. I was lucky. I got my projects and all my money back from John Ricks.

The problem is not that Brianbo and I entrusted the projects and money to John Ricks. The problem was John Ricks not holding to his end of our agreement. Since when, does 50% or amount down legitimize prevaricaton? It doesn't!

It would not have mattered if we had paid a little or a lot. If Brianbo and I have left our projects with John, most likely they would still be as they were, unfinished or not started at all.

Payments have nothing to do with the problem.
The only problem was John Ricks!

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

quote:

In this case, the alleged gunsmith was fully paid for the work done a full 9 months in advance of my receipt of the rifle.

I bet things might have been different if you would have been paying 50 % on the day you received the rifle back.

IN some cases, I am certain they would. In this case, and the 5 other rifles that went through the same, it may not have.

IIRC, all had to send the law to talk to him to get their stuff, and monies paid, back, without much (if any) work being done.

I was in the same spot different smith several years ago. I had paid 50% over 18 months later no work had started. The lust for the other 50% meant nothing. Only thing I saved by paying 50 vs 100% is the money. It would not have changed the outcome in my opinion. I got my parts but not the money. I had left the state and it wasn't worth the fight. I had two friends show up at his door to pick up my stuff.

Stuff happends.

I too suffered from this same fate on a rifle that is now finally nearing completion. Started out by buying the action from a high regarded gunsmith with a very good reputation. Well after paying for the action and working out the details of what else I wanted done to it and sending a deposite for the work he fell off planet. Phone calls not answered, letters returned, e-mails returned. Nothing. After almost 9 months I finally got ahold of him following two registered letters followed by a normal letter. The normal letter was accepted and he then finally accepted my call and sent my action back to me as well as a check for the unused portion of the deposite. Only issue at this point is that the action was not as advertised, it was the right make and series action though, it just did not have everything he told me it did. Also some of his work was obviously done in haste and would need redoing.

Yes it cost extra to correct the various issues but trying to get him to correct the issues would have been throwing good money after bad and risking him falling deaf again.

Looking back it was easier to cut my loss and proceed on with a new smith. And I too am happy with the turn of events.

Sometimes despite ones best efforts there are things that happen that are beyond our control. Large deposites or small deposites make no difference if the guy on the other hand decides not to do the work or do it poorly reguardless of his skill or reputation.

Glad things worked out with your rifle. She sure does look and shoot fine. Congrats.

What I've found,is anybody that takes 100% down from a customer. Is doing so because they are hard up and they could give a shit less about the product or the customer. Their intrests are elsewhere. As far as gunsmiths go. The good ones I've dealt with most likely won't take any money or 10% down to appease the customer,not themselves.

quote:

Originally posted by sledder:
As far as gunsmiths go. The good ones I've dealt with most likely won't take any money or 10% down to appease the customer,not themselves.

It depends. I'm in the business of building and repairing guns. I don't sell them. I haven't had to sell a customers gun in over 20 years to recoup costs. When I take a gun in for repairs, I weight its current value against what came in for, and if what it came in for, out weights it's value, then I will ask for enough of a deposit to commit the customer. This way if he fails to claim it, it is his loss, not mine.

If there are new stocks and barrels involved in the job, regardless of the value of the gun, I always ask for enough up front to cover those costs. BTW Brian, that's a nice looking rifle.

On a major job, I ask for 30 percent down. I want the customer to be involved in the project. I want him to have a stake in the project, I don't want him to get bored and walk away. I want the 70 percent still on the table, it gives me a reason to finish the project in a timely manner.

Im with Mark on this one. I require 1/3 down on major projects as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark_Stratton:
I want the 70 percent still on the table, it gives me a reason to finish the project in a timely manner.

Usually tripping over the jobs that are stacking up are reason enough to get them done. And if that don't do it, the howling of the wolves will.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark_Stratton:
On a major job, I ask for 30 percent down. I want the customer to be involved in the project. I want him to have a stake in the project, I don't want him to get bored and walk away. I want the 70 percent still on the table, it gives me a reason to finish the project in a timely manner.

I think you hit the nail square on the head.

quote:

I want the customer to be involved in the project.

Admirable, by any standard! However the gunsmith needs to answer the phone, return emails or letters and need to be working on the project!

It is difficult to be involved when the customer isn't kept informed!

Brianbo,

Great thread. I'm sorry you had to go through all that but looks like you ended up with a great rifle in spite of it all. There's so much good insight in this discussion. I've not been asking for any money down on the rifles I've been building but after reading the replies here I think I'll develop a policy like Malm's and Mark's so that my client's interest is kept and my risk is limited, probably 1/3 down or enouch to cover the cost of materials--whichever is less. Again, thanks for starting such a valuable discussion.

My smith and I have a pretty good arrangement. I pay for any material costs up front and for his labor and machine time when he's done.

It is indeed one very nice rifle. As for how much to pay down, I agree with the paying for materials or the 1/3 down, but no more. Of course you could have the idiot gunsmith that I used. Wanted a barrel swapped on a an S&W pistol. He quoted me a total time of about 1/2 hour to do the work.....I didn't pay him anything down, he just had my prized pistol. Eight months later, several broken promises, and change of story 3 times, I got my gun back. Seems like some gunsmiths, just like any other service organization, have no qualms about screwing their clients....must be a nice feeling to have so much work backlogged so that you can tell people to shove it, or lie through your teeth. I will say one thing, I am actually a very patient person. If I take a gun to a gunsmith to work on, he or she sets the date it will be ready. If they say 6 months, then I won't contact them until the 6 months are up. But if I contact them at the 6 month mark and it is not done, I get a little upset. They set the "rules" so to speak, now they should play by them. I realize that sometimes there are circumstances beyond their control, but often it is just laziness.
By the way, my gunsmith, or should say ex-gunsmith, kept telling me how far behind he was and that he was doing the work in order if he could, (obviously waiting for parts etc. would put him behind). In my case, he just needed to put the revolver barrel in the lathe and remove about .005 from the back of the barrel. He knew this had to be dene the day after I dropped the gun off since he had test fit the new barrel. So for the 1/2 hour of machine work he said he needed, it took him 8 months.

I've been building rifles for a lot of years and the 30 percent rule works well. And for all of those people that I've worked for can tell you, I always answer the phone and I try to return email within 24 hours. Perhaps that's why I have a lot of repeat customers.

I expect the gunsmith to request a reasonable amount down. As a consumer I also expect the gunsmith to determine what that is. He knows, or should know, what his burdened costs are to keep the doors open and should cover his base in case something unexpected happen. I want him to know and understand that I want some skin in the game too.

I think we all agree that good comunication is the key here. Stuff happens and things break and it is very easy to get behind.

I can live that and I can understand that. What really bothered my with my "first" smith on my project was that he told me three months to get to my job and about one week for what I wanted done. Well six months later I could not get him to return a call, letter, or e-mail. Nine months after that I finally got the action I purchased in a mostly unfinished state and the work he had done was going to need to be redone.

The up side is that as a result of the delays I was able to put asside considerably more funds and found a couple great smiths to work with. As a result the project, once complete, will be far better than originally concienved.

Delays have still occured but the lines of communication have remained open. I am kept in the loop. And as I said, I can live with that. As I am sure most guys can.